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Obviously a killy cc one with obviously red fury but what else?

I like the blood drinker and that nice (4+?) Ward save one

You mean Vlad Von Carstein I assume? He's pretty powerful but far too expensive. No I mean a vanilla vampire lord upgraded.

I'd go with something like

Vampire Lord
Level 1
Ogre Blade
Enchanted Shield
4+ Ward
Other Trickster's Shard
Quickblood
Redfury
Beguile
Heavy Armour
Barded Nightmare
450 IIRC

Alternativley can drop the 4+ ward and enchanted shield for a regular shield and the nightshroud.

I thought VCs where supposed to be full 25% of army? Or more

Well, yes, but it is ocassionally better to leave your general level 1 in larger is games to take a master necromancer instead. E.g. in a 2400 point game, the above would be a level 4 wizard instead of one, but in a 3000 point game, he would stay like that and I would have a level 4 master necro instead.

 raiden wrote:
I thought VCs where supposed to be full 25% of army? Or more

Hell yes.
I personally subscribe to the theory that if you're bringing a lord then you go big or go home. There is no 'cost effective' build, just 'most lethal while still being legal'

 jonolikespie wrote:

 raiden wrote:
I thought VCs where supposed to be full 25% of army? Or more

Hell yes.
I personally subscribe to the theory that if you're bringing a lord then you go big or go home. There is no 'cost effective' build, just 'most lethal while still being legal'

care to expand on that?

Generally, you want a Blender Lord, which will mean the following upgrades/items:

Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield/The Other Trickster's Shard, Heavy Armour, Shield (if you've gone with OTS)

Or, if you want a mounted one:

Barded Hellsteed, Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Earthing Rod, Lance, Heavy Armour

Some people also like to spend those last 20 points of Vampiric Powers on something like Fear Incarnate or Beguile though, personally, I don't think it's worth it, unless part of a strategy (Fear Incarnate + Aura of Dark Majesty + Screaming Banner, for example). I'd usually rather have another Fell Bat, or something like that.

Is quickblood really necessary though? The VL is usually gonna be striking fist anyway it seems too situational for 30 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm interested in running a black knight bus with VL in front rank and master Necromancer in second rank to buff the unit.

BaconUprising wrote:
Is quickblood really necessary though? The VL is usually gonna be striking fist anyway it seems too situational for 30 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm interested in running a black knight bus with VL in front rank and master Necromancer in second rank to buff the unit.

Quickblood isn't for going first, it's for the re-rolls to hit that ASF grants you if you're the same or higher Initiative than your opponent, which, for a Vampire Lord, is most things.

As for a BK bus, make sure to get a Hero Vamp in there so you can push the Necro to the back and still gain ranks. Personally though, I don't feel that a Necromancer adds much to a BK Bus, since you should have 5, if not 6, Magic Levels in that unit already.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "most cost effective."

And yeah, QB is for ASF.

 The Shadow wrote:


Barded Hellsteed, Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Earthing Rod, Lance, Heavy Armour

What does the Earthing Rod do? I can't remember.

I'm actually starting to think that maybe this "common" build isn't the best. The WS 10 you get from the vampire power Dread Knight (or whatever it is) is really, really good, and fits into the build with RF and QB. If you don't take DK, Fencer's Blades are a great magic item to get WS 10, and instead of DK you can take Beguile maybe. Of course, this limits you to Strength 5, so picking up a Potion of Strength can carry you through a combat in which you really need a higher strength, or in a challenge where the enemy character has a massive armor save.

If you don't take Fencer's Blades, the Sword of Anti-Heroes is probably better than the traditional Ogre Blade.

 Tangent wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean when you say "most cost effective."

And yeah, QB is for ASF.

 The Shadow wrote:


Barded Hellsteed, Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Earthing Rod, Lance, Heavy Armour

What does the Earthing Rod do? I can't remember.

Earthing Rod is a one-use item that allows you to re-roll a roll on the Miscast table. Considering how important your 550 point Vampire Lord is to your army, and the fact that he's likely surrounded by 300 point Hero Vampires, the Earthing Rod is very, very useful.

 The Shadow wrote:
Generally, you want a Blender Lord, which will mean the following upgrades/items:

Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield/The Other Trickster's Shard, Heavy Armour, Shield (if you've gone with OTS)

Or, if you want a mounted one:

Barded Hellsteed, Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Earthing Rod, Lance, Heavy Armour

Some people also like to spend those last 20 points of Vampiric Powers on something like Fear Incarnate or Beguile though, personally, I don't think it's worth it, unless part of a strategy (Fear Incarnate + Aura of Dark Majesty + Screaming Banner, for example). I'd usually rather have another Fell Bat, or something like that.

The mounted lord always takes the Ogre Blade. That isn't up for debate. The vampires alone in the bus won't break steadfast. Then you're stuck with a S5 character who will fail against the slightest hint of armour.

And the bus doesn't always get the charge. If a unit of MC charges the bus without the ogre blade, that's pretty much it.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Generally, you want a Blender Lord, which will mean the following upgrades/items:

Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Ogre Blade, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield/The Other Trickster's Shard, Heavy Armour, Shield (if you've gone with OTS)

Or, if you want a mounted one:

Barded Hellsteed, Lvl4, Red Fury, Quickblood, Talisman of Preservation, Enchanted Shield, The Other Trickster's Shard, Earthing Rod, Lance, Heavy Armour

Some people also like to spend those last 20 points of Vampiric Powers on something like Fear Incarnate or Beguile though, personally, I don't think it's worth it, unless part of a strategy (Fear Incarnate + Aura of Dark Majesty + Screaming Banner, for example). I'd usually rather have another Fell Bat, or something like that.

The mounted lord always takes the Ogre Blade. That isn't up for debate. The vampires alone in the bus won't break steadfast. Then you're stuck with a S5 character who will fail against the slightest hint of armour.

And the bus doesn't always get the charge. If a unit of MC charges the bus without the ogre blade, that's pretty much it.

I think this is one of those things where it comes down to preference, but I'm quite firmly in the "Lance + other stuff" camp.

With the Ogre Blade, you can just about squeeze in the OTS, which is nice. Then, however, you miss out on E.Shield (not that big of a miss, I grant you), but mainly on the Earthing Rod, which leaves that very expensive unit a lot more vulnerable. Now, I'm fine with not taking the Earthing Rod on a foot Vamp Lord, but that's because I NEED the Ogre Blade, whereas, here, a Lance does do just fine.

VC have a large amount of very good chaff, and the ability to summon units to block enemies' paths, so getting the charge is not so hard (you'll have Banner of Swiftness on the unit anyway). VC are all about setting up the right charges, and using the correct synergy, and using chaff to accomplish that. Most good VC players will agree with me there. Also consider that the Vamp Lord should be killing 8-10 models on the charge and that the Hero Vamp(s) will be killing 6-8. Then the Black Knights might kill a few too. If that doesn't break a unit, then you should be feeding that unit Zombies instead.

And let's not forget that S5 is still pretty darn good, especially with all the extra bonuses coming from a Vampire.

I agree with you, Shadow, that it's really easy to get the charge and that only makes the lance more viable. I disagree, however, that you'll be breaking the unit on vamp kills alone. Steadfast.

And again, you're still touting the Ogre Blade but the Sword of Anti-Heroes is probably always better.

 The Shadow wrote:
Also consider that the Vamp Lord should be killing 8-10 models on the charge and that the Hero Vamp(s) will be killing 6-8.

This is pretty optimistic.
With 5 attacks, 1's and 2's miss (which you reroll) and 1's fail to wound (which you don't re-roll), any knight will save on a 5+ or 6+ vs the ogre blade, while infantry may have the parry save (6+).
With only a 6+ save, you're averaging 3 wounds from your 5 attacks.
Then red fury kicks in, giving you 3 more attacks, averaging just under 2 more wounds.
I say you should count on 5 wounds, with another 4 from the vamp hero.
Of course, we all remember that time that they did 17 kills, and tend to gloss over the time they only got 3.


As for the best weapon, I'm going with Sword of Anti-heroes. That vampire lord will totally murder just about any character in the game. If you hit an enemy character bus, it's all over.
For the support vampire hero, I go with heavy armor, enchanted shield, sword of swiftness, potion of strength and red fury. It gives you those high strength hits you need for one phase, but you still manage ASF + Red Fury in a hero package.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Also consider that the Vamp Lord should be killing 8-10 models on the charge and that the Hero Vamp(s) will be killing 6-8.

This is pretty optimistic.
With 5 attacks, 1's and 2's miss (which you reroll) and 1's fail to wound (which you don't re-roll), any knight will save on a 5+ or 6+ vs the ogre blade, while infantry may have the parry save (6+).
With only a 6+ save, you're averaging 3 wounds from your 5 attacks.
Then red fury kicks in, giving you 3 more attacks, averaging just under 2 more wounds.
I say you should count on 5 wounds, with another 4 from the vamp hero.
Of course, we all remember that time that they did 17 kills, and tend to gloss over the time they only got 3.


As for the best weapon, I'm going with Sword of Anti-heroes. That vampire lord will totally murder just about any character in the game. If you hit an enemy character bus, it's all over.
For the support vampire hero, I go with heavy armor, enchanted shield, sword of swiftness, potion of strength and red fury. It gives you those high strength hits you need for one phase, but you still manage ASF + Red Fury in a hero package.

-Matt

Against anything with WS5 or less, T5 or less and an armour equal or worse to 3+, all the Vampires are hitting on 3s (re-rolling in the case of the Lord) and killing on twos. That's against the vast majority of the units in the game. I've done the maths and, although it's not that impressive, there's an average of 12 kills from the characters though, in practice, they do tend to kill more, since you're rounding up on dice all the time. Still, it's not so shabby, especially when you've got attacks from the unit to come.

Yes, Knights have a save against them but there are far less knights in the first place, so you don't actually need to kill as many. The Sword of Anti-Heroes is great. Against that time there's an actual character in the unit. A lot of the time, the enemy's characters will be mages bunkered away and you'll have to deal with large units of nothing but rank and file. And, when you declare your items at the start of the game, that's your surprise gone and I've known many people who detach their characters from units in the face of the weapon. Though the Potion of Strength combo is pretty decent for a back-up, I must admit (and will probably give it a whirl sometime).

However, a Lance is cheap, effective and reliable, which is why I always take it.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
This is pretty optimistic.

I was gonna say that too, but didn't do the math. Regardless, I would say, maybe, one out of every 8 or so games that I play will I actually get the numbers that you're using, Shadow. Most of the time, I kill something like 5 or 6 guys total with my vamp lord.

The Shadow wrote:
Against that time there's an actual character in the unit.

Seriously man, I think I've only ever had my vampire in combat with a unit WITHOUT a character like once.

I can't argue with the cheapness of the lance, but I used to use a lance all the time and switched because there's better performance elsewhere.

 The Shadow wrote:

Against anything with WS5 or less, T5 or less and an armour equal or worse to 3+, all the Vampires are hitting on 3s (re-rolling in the case of the Lord) and killing on twos. That's against the vast majority of the units in the game. I've done the maths and, although it's not that impressive, there's an average of 12 kills from the characters though, in practice, they do tend to kill more, since you're rounding up on dice all the time. Still, it's not so shabby, especially when you've got attacks from the unit to come.
And, when you declare your items at the start of the game, that's your surprise gone and I've known many people who detach their characters from units in the face of the weapon.

Most infantry I see have parry saves, ASF (elves) or ward saves (Daemons). I wouldn't count on S7 bypassing all saves in the game.

Also, why would you declare your items at the start of the game?
Magic items are supposed to be secret; that why you have to take other magic items to detect and identify them (like the ogre Rock Eye).

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Against anything with WS5 or less, T5 or less and an armour equal or worse to 3+, all the Vampires are hitting on 3s (re-rolling in the case of the Lord) and killing on twos. That's against the vast majority of the units in the game. I've done the maths and, although it's not that impressive, there's an average of 12 kills from the characters though, in practice, they do tend to kill more, since you're rounding up on dice all the time. Still, it's not so shabby, especially when you've got attacks from the unit to come.
And, when you declare your items at the start of the game, that's your surprise gone and I've known many people who detach their characters from units in the face of the weapon.

Most infantry I see have parry saves, ASF (elves) or ward saves (Daemons). I wouldn't count on S7 bypassing all saves in the game.

Also, why would you declare your items at the start of the game?
Magic items are supposed to be secret; that why you have to take other magic items to detect and identify them (like the ogre Rock Eye).

-Matt

Most infantry that has a parry save is likely cheap, numerous fodder, like Night Goblins or Clan Rats, units that you generally don't want your bus to be charging into. The best targets for the BK bus are expensive, less numerous models that, like I say, aren't above T5 or have a 1/2+ save. That does cover most of the elite units in the game really, stuff like Hammerers, Chosen, Temple Guard etc. Elves and Daemons are special cases though really, but it still depends on the exact unit in question.

And where I live, it's generally expected that you show your list to your opponent before the game, and that's in most tournaments too. I've attended one and heard of another in the area that don't use this rule, but all others are very open.

 The Shadow wrote:

And where I live, it's generally expected that you show your list to your opponent before the game, and that's in most tournaments too. I've attended one and heard of another in the area that don't use this rule, but all others are very open.

This has always been, to me, the strangest house rule. When you do this, it makes certain magic items literally useless, like Heinrich Kemmler's gibbering staff item.

or fanatics....

sleekid wrote:
or fanatics....

Another good example. Also assassins. There is a lot of stuff in WHFB that's built around the idea that your opponent won't be reading your list beforehand.

Lord
Level 4
Ogre Blade
Talisman of Preservation
OTS
Quickblood
Red Fury
Heavy Armour
Shield

Clocks in at 514 unless i did the maths wrong

Ceann Fine wrote:
Lord
Level 4
Ogre Blade
Talisman of Preservation
OTS
Quickblood
Red Fury
Heavy Armour
Shield

Clocks in at 514 unless i did the maths wrong

I'd put him on a horse, every game, Barded Nightmare, or Hellsteed.
I don't want 514 points dying to thunderstomp in a challenge; and I don't want to take a breathe weapon with only a 4+/4++.
I'd throw beguile on him too. 15 points and a very good chance that the one guy that could take him out is re-rolling his successful hits.

After loosing a vampire or two to the Anointed of Asuryan on Frost Phoenix, I discovered that the extra armor save is needed.

-Matt