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Now I know EVERYONE has their own opinion on the state of 40k at the moment, some people are just rolling with the new releases like any other while some others believe that these new 'supplements' have crossed a line in the already broken 40k rule set. I am one of the latter, and I am arranging a (friendly) league/campaign in-store and want to sort out some ground rules to try make it more fun for everyone of different skill levels. I also know you will probably think these suggestions should probably be going to them and it doesn't matter what you guys think, but I want to get some feed back off you guys before I pitch it to them. These restrictions are meant to limit certain power builds which aren't fun to play against (No one has fun with 2+ re-rollables) and to give our newer players more of a chance vs. out better players who have access to more models/armies. Anyhow...

1) We accept all Codex's, Digital Codex's and Supplements (Including escalation, and stronghold assault) but don't accept Formations and Dataslates.

2) All armies must spend 25% of their points allowance on troops. 25% isn't all that much and campaigns are won with armies, not monsters, I also notice it limits some armies more then others, having very little effect on the likes of Serpent Spam or Flyer Spam but it will limit FMC spam and SeerStar

3) In the event of re-rolling saves s a result of Fortune or Daemon of Tzeentch for example, the re-roll is capped out at a 4+. Note this has no effect on Misfortune.

4) A dedicated transport may not cost more then double the points cost of the unit it was bought for. This limits powerful transports somewhat such as Wave Serpents and Nightscythes from going all MSU on our asses, while having little effect on people who NEED their transports like DE Venoms/Rhinos. Has the unfortunate side effect of ruining 3 man Acolyte spam though.

5) Monstrous Creatures Units are limited to at most 2 per force organisation. No more tri-tide and no more tri-knights. Effects Tyranid heavy support quite badly, so I would say that any Carnifex Brood that purchased a Mycetic Spore can be taken as a fast attack.

6) No army may contain more then 12 Mastery Levels Combined (18 at double Force Org), Only Independent Characters in the Grey Knights Codex are counted.. You can still do your evil psykic deathstars, but they are limited. For example if you wanted to have 2 Farseers in your SeerStar you could only have 6 Warlocks If you wanted Faeweaver, then your screamer star can only have 4 level 2 heralds, that's only 4 rolls on Divination.

7) No strength D weapons. Done, no questions.

8) No Fortifications with an AV over 14. Done, no questions.

9) Both the Lords of War choices and he Fortification choices may NOT exceed 50% of your total army value. No big Titians until big games, seems fair to me.

10) Finally. No unit outside of the Troop or HQ force org may be taken in multiples of 3 unless they occupy different slots (Examples being Dreads in both Elite and Heavy). Puts a stopper in all Spam whatsoever, save Valk's taken in squadrons, but we have been dealing with them for a while. If you can find me a single unit that HAS to be taken 3 times for the army to be competitive, you win an internet cookie. I won't count Ravagers because VoidRavens/Razorwings are viable and the same with exorcists and Retributors.

What do you think, anything totally out of line? Anything that would fore you to pack up right away and why? I am trying to make it fun for the newies while limiting our more, lets simply say competitive, gamers who like to play powerlists. This isn't meant to criticise powerlists but more make them try other lists because they are to comfortable with their netlists it's all they have used in a long while.

1) Err... careful, some of those give rather weird scenario-like effects that can get pretty one-sided.

2) Or just, you know, move Dedicated Transports to their own FOC category so they aren't Troop anymore.

4) Could you also add "Serpent Shields are limited to 24" "? 'cause it doesn't address the fact that Serpent Shields are totally bonkers regardless of other limitations.

5) This has too great effects on too many armies. Try to target the problem creatures. "A FOC may not have more than one MC with 5 or more wounds" for example.

6) What about completely inept LD8 psychic squad leaders? You're not actually fixing a problem here, you're just banning people from taking too many of overpriced miniatures.
Seems what you're actually targeting is the squad size on Warlock Council and the amount of Heralds, why not attack those specifically?

7) What about structure points?

10) No, but I can give you a few examples that need to be taken in multiples when building fluff lists that aren't going to be competitive.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


1) We accept all Codex's, Digital Codex's and Supplements (Including escalation, and stronghold assault) but don't accept Formations and Dataslates.
What's wrong with taking Be'lakor? Surely he's less powerful per point than a Warhound titan with the plasma blastgun?

2) All armies must spend 25% of their points allowance on troops. 25% isn't all that much and campaigns are won with armies, not monsters, I also notice it limits some armies more then others, having very little effect on the likes of Serpent Spam or Flyer Spam but it will limit FMC spam and SeerStar
And limit several fluff lists... And armies with terrible troopers.

10) Finally. No unit outside of the Troop or HQ force org may be taken in multiples of 3 unless they occupy different slots (Examples being Dreads in both Elite and Heavy). Puts a stopper in all Spam whatsoever, save Valk's taken in squadrons, but we have been dealing with them for a while. If you can find me a single unit that HAS to be taken 3 times for the army to be competitive, you win an internet cookie. I won't count Ravagers because VoidRavens/Razorwings are viable and the same with exorcists and Retributors.
And so, Typhus' totally awesome and utterly not-op zombie horde was limited to only 105 zombies... Ah, well.

I don't know really. You seem to be anti-Eldar and Tau, yet design rules which will affect all armies besides these two. I'd say you should tweak the specific units such as Wave Serpents and Riptides rather than the entire game.

I think you over did it....

Isn't it unfair to nurf specific armies or units because i would be accused of being biased, so just using blanket bans such as not taking the same unit 3 times is simply easier and removes bias. This is the reason I am reluctant to make changes (The Carnifex rule has been a house rule for a while) to specific codexes when the problem can be fixed with broad strokes. I don't like data slates because, much like forgeworld, not everyone has access to the rules on a regular basis, meaning its hard to plan for them. They are practically GW appoved home brew because any one without an I-pad or equivalent wont know his rules.

You can do that Nurgle list, the Zombies are troops i believe and the 2 unit max doesn't effect troops or HQ's. I think all armies can make 25% troops fairly easily, i cannot think of n army that would find this such a major disadvantage. Also these rules are for a campaign, campaigns are won by armies of troops so its also thematic. No army NEEDS more then 2 monstrous creatures per FOC Org piece (That's and option for 2 HQ's, 2 Troops, 2 Elites, 2 Fast attacks and 2 Heavy supports, that's still a lot of MC's. They just have to be different ones) and no army NEEDS 3 of the same unit, so why let people spam like such?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
No army NEEDS more then 2 monstrous creatures per FOC Org piece (That's and option for 2 HQ's, 2 Troops, 2 Elites, 2 Fast attacks and 2 Heavy supports, that's still a lot of MC's. They just have to be different ones) and no army NEEDS 3 of the same unit, so why let people spam like such?

No army NEEDS to follow your personal opinion of what an army should be like. If you insist on "fixing" the game by making people play armies that are more like the ones you enjoy instead limiting your changes to fixing clear balance issues then this proposal will end up like every other similar proposal: a thread of arguing about it, and nobody actually using the rules.

Its a bit unpleasant for peeps who finaly can play Cypher after 10 years of the model collecting dusts, and then" Nope no dataslates".

No formation okey i can get ir, but for one Dprince and one ChapterMaster like char..., its a tad silly.

Kindly find rules for competitive play, here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568772.page

I think what you have said is great 40k needs to be fixed really badly. Maybe you could try something we did in 5th ed & just give the crap codices extra points i.e. Orks get + 2000 points in 1500 point games. Let the Nids use there old codex since the new codex was a nerf.

It's not exactly rules fix. It's a SPAM fix
Noone likes to play vs spam lists. I actually like the spirit of your restrictions on forces.
I myself feel that my games are much more fun when i go 2 battlewagons rather than 4...unfortunately, 2 is not enough to do anything meaningful vs newer and stronger codexes while 4 can hope that at least half will make it there. And strictly speaking, orkses don't have anything else except for battlewagon rush or nob bikers to do the job vs most ballanced newer armies.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Now I know EVERYONE has their own opinion on the state of 40k at the moment, some people are just rolling with the new releases like any other while some others believe that these new 'supplements' have crossed a line in the already broken 40k rule set. I am one of the latter, and I am arranging a (friendly) league/campaign in-store and want to sort out some ground rules to try make it more fun for everyone of different skill levels. I also know you will probably think these suggestions should probably be going to them and it doesn't matter what you guys think, but I want to get some feed back off you guys before I pitch it to them. These restrictions are meant to limit certain power builds which aren't fun to play against (No one has fun with 2+ re-rollables) and to give our newer players more of a chance vs. out better players who have access to more models/armies. Anyhow...

1) We accept all Codex's, Digital Codex's and Supplements (Including escalation, and stronghold assault) but don't accept Formations and Dataslates.
This is a bit heavy handed.
While a bit silly, I like how broad the rules have bcome now.
I like, that THIS:

Spoiler:

is the rules pool you can draw from in 40K.
(And that's the official tournament and standard 40k legal collection as according to Games Workshop.)

A logical restriction would be to make it 0-1 Formation Detachment (that most Dataslate formation occupy) rather than 0+ with no upper limit.
This prevents multiple things, but still allows use, and doesn't stop things like Cypher, Belakor and that being taken.

2) All armies must spend 25% of their points allowance on troops. 25% isn't all that much and campaigns are won with armies, not monsters, I also notice it limits some armies more then others, having very little effect on the likes of Serpent Spam or Flyer Spam but it will limit FMC spam and SeerStar
Doesn't really do all that much to SeerStars to be honest. If anything.
Forcing a minimum 375pts at 1500, 462 at 1850 and 500 at 2000 isn't really all that much of a hardship, and honestly, hurts some silly fluffy lists more than it touches anything 'broken' or 'overpowered'.

3) In the event of re-rolling saves s a result of Fortune or Daemon of Tzeentch for example, the re-roll is capped out at a 4+. Note this has no effect on Misfortune.
This seems to be a relatively common 'fix' in Tournament packets, though it's normally ' the re-roll suffers a -2 penalty ' rather than straight 4+.

4) A dedicated transport may not cost more then double the points cost of the unit it was bought for. This limits powerful transports somewhat such as Wave Serpents and Nightscythes from going all MSU on our asses, while having little effect on people who NEED their transports like DE Venoms/Rhinos. Has the unfortunate side effect of ruining 3 man Acolyte spam though.
Can happily bugger my Coven army this. Especially the Webway list, as it means the 2-3 squads of 3 Wracks that escort the Haemonculi with their portals can't have transports anymore.
This is again heavy handed and poorly thought out, and doesn't really fix anything, as a Wave Serpent will generally have 65-90pts of models in it anyway,
Last I checked Serpents didn't cost over 130 to 190pts.

Same for Nightscythes.
A Nightscythe is 100pts.
The Cheapest unit that can go in one is 65.
So it's under your 'requirement' that tries to 'fix' it by 30pts.

The only things I can think of it hurting are silly fluffy lists.

5) Monstrous Creatures Units are limited to at most 2 per force organisation. No more tri-tide and no more tri-knights. Effects Tyranid heavy support quite badly, so I would say that any Carnifex Brood that purchased a Mycetic Spore can be taken as a fast attack.
Well, that buggers nids royally.
14 of 34 unit entries are Monstrous Creatures.
All but 2 HQs are Monstrous Creatures and one of the ones that isn't has no Synapse.

So you're stuck with using 'Nid Primes as HQ, or using one or both of your 'MC Limit' on your HQ.
Most all the 'nids reliable Anti Tank is Monstrous Creatures, and you're basically entirely reliant on Warriors and Zoanthropes for Synapse.

And on top of just kneecapping Tyranids outright, it does sod all to the lists you mentioned.
2 Riptides and a Hammerhead or Sniper Drones are still nasty as hell. Or take 1-2 Flyers, or a set of Battlesuits.
2 Wraithknights is still nasty as hell, and there are LOADS of options for Eldar to fill that gap.

As with most of the rest of it, heavy handed and poorly thought out. Does next to nothing if anything to hurt the 'bad' or 'spammy' lists you want to 'fix', and just cripples something that really doesn't deserve it.

6) No army may contain more then 12 Mastery Levels Combined (18 at double Force Org), Only Independent Characters in the Grey Knights Codex are counted.. You can still do your evil psykic deathstars, but they are limited. For example if you wanted to have 2 Farseers in your SeerStar you could only have 6 Warlocks If you wanted Faeweaver, then your screamer star can only have 4 level 2 heralds, that's only 4 rolls on Divination.
Well, this does little to nothing tbh.
Feels like a reallly arbitrary limit.

A slightly less Arbitrary but goes further to fixing the 'problem' would be something like 1 mastery level per 150pts.
So 10 for 1500, 12 for 1850 and 13 at 2000.
But really, this is no less of a number I pulled out my ass than '12/18'

7) No strength D weapons. Done, no questions.
This is pretty fine tbh.
I'd add the caveat of no ranged StrD weapons, meaning that you can still use TCCWs.
This is balanced by having to actually having to reach close combat to use it.

Alternatively, you could say that StrD counts as Str10 against non Superheavy / GC targets, but melee only is a LOT simpler.

8) No Fortifications with an AV over 14. Done, no questions.
Honestly not sure what the reasoning here is tbh.
No Ranged StrD already kills off the super-fortress as it only has StrD weapons.

9) Both the Lords of War choices and he Fortification choices may NOT exceed 50% of your total army value. No big Titians until big games, seems fair to me.
Eh, this is mostly reasonable but once you strip StrD, nothing is really killy enough to outpoint the equivalent amount of enemy forces.
But really, this should probably be a thing.

Can still take a Warhound or Transcendent C'tan, etc at 1500, so it's all good.

10) Finally. No unit outside of the Troop or HQ force org may be taken in multiples of 3 unless they occupy different slots (Examples being Dreads in both Elite and Heavy). Puts a stopper in all Spam whatsoever, save Valk's taken in squadrons, but we have been dealing with them for a while. If you can find me a single unit that HAS to be taken 3 times for the army to be competitive, you win an internet cookie. I won't count Ravagers because VoidRavens/Razorwings are viable and the same with exorcists and Retributors.
Except that the as above 'big' things, such as Riptides and Wraithknights it won't really matter for (and this is REALLY doubling up on that which is pretty backwards anyway) and that most spammy spam is spammy, because the units are either A: Troops. B: Available in almost every FoC slot.
It does nothing for Venom Spam, Serpent Spam, Cron Air, Valk Spam, etc, etc, etc.
Again, it's poorly thought through, heavy handed and does nothing to the 'problem' lists.

Also - Repentia and Penitent Engines. If you don't take 3 squads of them, they don't have the mass to be useful, limiting to 2/2 effectively cripples the only way to make those squads useful / competitive.
I'll take my cookie now.

What do you think, anything totally out of line? Anything that would fore you to pack up right away and why? I am trying to make it fun for the newies while limiting our more, lets simply say competitive, gamers who like to play powerlists. This isn't meant to criticise powerlists but more make them try other lists because they are to comfortable with their netlists it's all they have used in a long while.

I think it doesn't work.

The only sensible suggestions in the list are affecting rerolls, (though again, -2 is better than straight 4+), no StrD (though again, Melee StrD would be fine) and max 50% Lords of War.

Literally everything else hurts silly fluffy lists and Tyranids (which don't need more hate!) and either does next to nothing, or absolutely nothing to the 'problem' lists.

I mean, I listed the rules sources you can draw 40k from above.
And the Force Org Chart looks like this:
Meaning you can take any one of 34 Army Lists, and as Marines choose from 24 official Chapter Tactics and in turn, ally in any second force of the 34 armies and 24 Chapter Tactics, and on top of THAT, you can take some Inquisitors and co.
That's before Fortifications, Lords of War and Formations.

Faced with all that, what can you really do?

Yes I agree no Ranged StrD (maybe even no StrD at all), and a 50% limit on Lords of War.
I'd add in max 1 Formation too.

If you wanted a semi-sensible way to 'enforce' less spamtastic lists, say in a campaign, you could do something like 'you must have at least 1 of every available Force Organisation option and 2 Troops before you can take another:
So, you start with 1 HQ, 2 Troops.
Before you can take a second HQ, a 3rd/4th Troop, and more than 1 Elite, Fast Attack or Heavy Support, you must first have 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops, 1 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy Support.
Then again before you can take a third, you must first have 2 HQ, 2 Elites, 4 Troops, 2 Fast Attack, 2 Heavy Support.

(If anyone's wondering what those 34 army lists and 24 chapter tactics actually are:
Army Lists:Chapter Tactics:

Ovion, where did you get those charts of the FO summary and everything that could used in 6th ed? Those look interesting.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ovion, where did you get those charts of the FO summary and everything that could used in 6th ed? Those look interesting.

I put them together myself, because I'm a crazy person with a screwy sleep pattern and get bored in the wee hours of the morning.

I also do a LOT of work with the Homebrew community (not that you'd ever guess from my sig or anything).

I'm also working on updated allies charts for everything.
So far I've got Adepta Sororitas and Space Marines completed:

And maybe halfway done on the Excel Charts (actually been sleeping better lately, so less bored-time to do this stuff in)

In fairness i wrote this quite a while ago, a fair bit before Christmas if i remember and i would fully agree these are badly though out rules and probably a knee jerk reaction to Escalation and the general feeling of ''Gamesworkshop simply doesn't care about rules anymore'' that was brought on by D weapons the the (then) recent Eldar codex. When i wrote this neither Cypher nor Be'Lakor where in existence and i think this was a reaction to the broadside firebase, but i can't remember fully. So in response to all of these people, these rules suck when put into the context of the current meta, and probably sucked when i released them. But every other thread going on back then was a 40K fix and...well, i felt left out