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Forge World published a list of superheavy vehicles in there supplements which can be used as Lords of War in Escalation games. If you've not already had a chance, you can look those over here: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

Most of these seem pretty tame, some expected even, but then my eyes rested on the Forces of the Imperium. They suggest a Reaver Battle Titan as an acceptable lord of War! And we thought the Eldar Revenant was too much! How the heck do you even fit a model that, by itself, costs something like 1500 points into a game that's not Apocalypse? Ranting about Titans aside, what does the rest of Dakka think about this list?

It's possible. You can fit the Reaver in a 2.5k game. It takes up half the points but it's possible.

I think the list is fine. I was expecting them to add everything anyway.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It's possible. You can fit the Reaver in a 2.5k game. It takes up half the points but it's possible.

I think the list is fine. I was expecting them to add everything anyway.

Poor Dark Eldar left out in the cold though. Inquisition is actually the worst off because they get nothing from GW or FW.

Probably for the best or else people would just take armies of Coteaz and a Reaver.

Inquisition is better off than Dark Eldar. DE fielding a Revenant titan makes less sense than Sisters fielding a Harridan.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It's possible. You can fit the Reaver in a 2.5k game. It takes up half the points but it's possible.

I think the list is fine. I was expecting them to add everything anyway.

Poor Dark Eldar left out in the cold though. Inquisition is actually the worst off because they get nothing from GW or FW.

Probably for the best or else people would just take armies of Coteaz and a Reaver.

Well, to fair...DE don't really have any super heavies that I could think of, and can you even take inquisition as a primary detachment? At least sisters and space marines can get titans now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Inquisition is better off than Dark Eldar. DE fielding a Revenant titan makes less sense than Sisters fielding a Harridan.

Yeah, that's the thing...DE can field a revenant titan. It's in the escalation book.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, to fair...DE don't really have any super heavies that I could think of, and can you even take inquisition as a primary detachment? At least sisters and space marines can get titans now.

Yes, a lone Inqusitor can be an entire army by himself as the primary detachment.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, to fair...DE don't really have any super heavies that I could think of, and can you even take inquisition as a primary detachment? At least sisters and space marines can get titans now.

Yes, a lone Inqusitor can be an entire army by himself as the primary detachment.

Huh that's goofy. What about troops?

Bharring wrote:
Inquisition is better off than Dark Eldar. DE fielding a Revenant titan makes less sense than Sisters fielding a Harridan.

Can you imagine that? Evan ward wouldn't think that!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, to fair...DE don't really have any super heavies that I could think of, and can you even take inquisition as a primary detachment? At least sisters and space marines can get titans now.

Yes, a lone Inqusitor can be an entire army by himself as the primary detachment.

Huh that's goofy. What about troops?

They don't have any. It's just Inquisitors and henchmen warbands, which are elites.

Just noticed, the Tau Manta is also listed as a LoW. That's just silly...

You know, if you have enough points to field a Phantom plus your core requirements, why aren't you playing Apoc?

 alienvalentine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, to fair...DE don't really have any super heavies that I could think of, and can you even take inquisition as a primary detachment? At least sisters and space marines can get titans now.

Yes, a lone Inqusitor can be an entire army by himself as the primary detachment.

Huh that's goofy. What about troops?

They don't have any. It's just Inquisitors and henchmen warbands, which are elites.

Just noticed, the Tau Manta is also listed as a LoW. That's just silly...

Well, at least they are thorough. Pretty much every FW SHV and GC is listed here. Besides, it's not as if anyone would take a manta regularly. It's bloody heavy for one thing.

Col. Dash wrote:
You know, if you have enough points to field a Phantom plus your core requirements, why aren't you playing Apoc?

This pretty much sums up my reaction to Escalation as a whole.

 alienvalentine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, to fair...DE don't really have any super heavies that I could think of, and can you even take inquisition as a primary detachment? At least sisters and space marines can get titans now.

Yes, a lone Inqusitor can be an entire army by himself as the primary detachment.

Huh that's goofy. What about troops?

They don't have any. It's just Inquisitors and henchmen warbands, which are elites.

Just noticed, the Tau Manta is also listed as a LoW. That's just silly...

That's not silly, that's a Kill Team table!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alienvalentine wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
You know, if you have enough points to field a Phantom plus your core requirements, why aren't you playing Apoc?

This pretty much sums up my reaction to Escalation as a whole.

Not all super heavies fall into that category, and even those that do can still be taken at lower levels than Apoc is normally played at. Plus there is that "Defiant to the End" mission where all the Lord of War player brings is the lone Lord of War versus a 1.5k army. Though if someone took something worth more than that I'd arrange to increase the army to match.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 alienvalentine wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, to fair...DE don't really have any super heavies that I could think of, and can you even take inquisition as a primary detachment? At least sisters and space marines can get titans now.

Yes, a lone Inqusitor can be an entire army by himself as the primary detachment.

Huh that's goofy. What about troops?

They don't have any. It's just Inquisitors and henchmen warbands, which are elites.

Just noticed, the Tau Manta is also listed as a LoW. That's just silly...

That's not silly, that's a Kill Team table!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alienvalentine wrote:

Col. Dash wrote:
You know, if you have enough points to field a Phantom plus your core requirements, why aren't you playing Apoc?

This pretty much sums up my reaction to Escalation as a whole.

Not all super heavies fall into that category, and even those that do can still be taken at lower levels than Apoc is normally played at. Plus there is that "Defiant to the End" mission where all the Lord of War player brings is the lone Lord of War versus a 1.5k army. Though if someone took something worth more than that I'd arrange to increase the army to match.

I guess it's really all about what the point level is that Apoc is "normally" played at. Personally I feel that once you start to tick over about 3000 points, it's probably a good idea to start thinking about playing Apoc instead, regardless of superheavies. I really don't have a problem with superheavies in regular 40k in principal, I just don't see it as practicable, especially since anybody who's already got one probably has the Apocalypse book as well. Heck, I own the apocalypse book and I don't own any superheavies.

I own a Stormlord for my Sisters for use in Apoc. And now I've got a reason to scratchbuild a Warhound finally, so I'll have one of those too.

Well this does go a long way to balance the game between armies...just doesn't balance the dex's with the LoW at all. Still at least the best looking models in the game can be taken now.

I am looking forward to my gorgon seeing play time...even if it is still a poor choice.

Edit: Woops, double post. Not sure how that happened...

So elder have a flyer with 2 str d super large blast templates.

Games workshop HAS to be going out of business for them to be this desperate.

 Orock wrote:
So elder have a flyer with 2 str d super large blast templates.

Games workshop HAS to be going out of business for them to be this desperate.

Not even remotely. They're simply injecting common sense into their business model. They're no longer selling models for multiple games called Warhammer 40k - they're selling models for one game with multiple variants. If you buy a 40k model, you can play with it in 40k. End of story.

And to hear the naysayers tell it, Revenant Titans are flying off the shelves. Apparently everyone has one now. So they've got that going for them.

40k has gone full slow

 Ravenous D wrote:
40k has gone full slow

I'd say it's gone full buffet table: a wide range options to which you can use to fill your plate and satisfy your tastes instead of preset menu items.

Honestly aside from strength D I don't think any of the Lords or War are any better than what your average codex can do. The smaller super-heavies like the Malcador and Macharius add great flavour at around 1750-2000 points without being remotely overpowered. I just wish they'd use the FW lord of war system so that there was more of a limit on what you could take, but concievably you could take two at high points levels if they were only small. At 2000 points the FW rules would allow two of the basic Malcadors, which would be a great way of adding flavour to a pdf-type force by showing their use of older technology - and I doubt anyone seriously wants to argue that the Malcador is overpowered when it's just a Leman Russ with worse sponsons and more durability. This would also mean you couldn't take a Warhound before about 3k, and a Reaver before ~6k (ie in apocalypse). Alas, GW were too lazy to copypaste from Forgeworld and had to copypaste from aoc instead, so we have legal Reavers (with 40 bodies to screen them) at 1750.

is that a GW errate to escalation or FW calling some of their stuff LoW now?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
40k has gone full slow

I'd say it's gone full buffet table: a wide range options to which you can use to fill your plate and satisfy your tastes instead of preset menu items.

Just a pity that the menu becomes ever worse.

Well... this certainly comes as no surprise, I was thinking it may just take a while for it to be released, but hey, that's not bad.

They can't offer the spreadsheet that tells you where to find the most recent rules for all their models.. might as well just do it for the Titans and super heavies. Overall what everyone expected I think. At least it's a permissive game system amongst the reasonable.

KingDeath wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
40k has gone full slow

I'd say it's gone full buffet table: a wide range options to which you can use to fill your plate and satisfy your tastes instead of preset menu items.

Just a pity that the menu becomes ever worse.

It's the same menu items they've had for a while, just less restrictions on how you combine them.

Ok so the Orks can use the Kustom Stompa...

Lets see if I got this correct;

It has a base weapon array of :

Deth Kannon-72" range Str10/Ap1 massive blast

Gigashoota 48" range Str6/Ap4 Heavy 6d6

Supa Rockets X3 unlimited range Str8/Ap3 on shot

Supa Skoprcha Template Str6/Ap3

Supa Gattler 48" range Str7/Ap3 Heavy 2d6 ( I assume the new rules for its use in the Apoc book apply?)

Big Shoot 36" range Str5/Ap5 Assulat3

Now for the decent options

Deff Arsenal +120 pts 120" range Str9/Ap3 Heavy 3d6 shots

red paint +25 pts

And finally Gaze of Mork +25 pts for the 60" range one shot D weapon...the only rules I could find on it were in the new Apoc book...is there an old version of this ability that is waay different than the new one?..reflecting is listed low price.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
40k has gone full slow

I'd say it's gone full buffet table: a wide range options to which you can use to fill your plate and satisfy your tastes instead of preset menu items.

Just a pity that the menu becomes ever worse.

It's the same menu items they've had for a while, just less restrictions on how you combine them.

From my perspective, they are mixing all the menu items and hope that the resulting meal would still taste well. Sadly, they are mistaken. The balance between D-weapons and normal equipment is so horribly bad that including them into "normal" 40k games is a severe mistake which will lead to much sealclubbing and an overal less enjoyable game, at the very least for those who do not wish to spend 200+€ on a piece of overpriced resin.

KingDeath wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
40k has gone full slow

I'd say it's gone full buffet table: a wide range options to which you can use to fill your plate and satisfy your tastes instead of preset menu items.

Just a pity that the menu becomes ever worse.

It's the same menu items they've had for a while, just less restrictions on how you combine them.

From my perspective, they are mixing all the menu items and hope that the resulting meal would still taste well. Sadly, they are mistaken. The balance between D-weapons and normal equipment is so horribly bad that including them into "normal" 40k games is a severe mistake which will lead to much sealclubbing and an overal less enjoyable game, at the very least for those who do not wish to spend 200+€ on a piece of overpriced resin.

I said a buffet, not a blender. In a buffet you pick and choose which things you want in your dish (aka your game). Can you take everything in a game? Sure. But you're not being forced too, and honestly that's what confuses me. No one expects to be forced to play against Tau all the time since they can turn games down or request the game be tweaked for what they want instead. But when it comes to Escalation that suddenly is apparently no longer an option based on some of the reactions and that makes no sense to me.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
40k has gone full slow

I'd say it's gone full buffet table: a wide range options to which you can use to fill your plate and satisfy your tastes instead of preset menu items.

Just a pity that the menu becomes ever worse.

It's the same menu items they've had for a while, just less restrictions on how you combine them.

From my perspective, they are mixing all the menu items and hope that the resulting meal would still taste well. Sadly, they are mistaken. The balance between D-weapons and normal equipment is so horribly bad that including them into "normal" 40k games is a severe mistake which will lead to much sealclubbing and an overal less enjoyable game, at the very least for those who do not wish to spend 200+€ on a piece of overpriced resin.

I said a buffet, not a blender. In a buffet you pick and choose which things you want in your dish (aka your game). Can you take everything in a game? Sure. But you're not being forced too, and honestly that's what confuses me. No one expects to be forced to play against Tau all the time since they can turn games down or request the game be tweaked for what they want instead. But when it comes to Escalation that suddenly is apparently no longer an option based on some of the reactions and that makes no sense to me.

We either have a rule system which is followed more or less consistently, or we throw it all out of the window because everything goes. Having to tweak a game because GW is utterly incapable of actualy balancing their game is nothing i wish to do. After all, they charge a considerable amount of money for their rulebooks and expecting a non broken game shouldn't be too much. Escalation, or specificaly, the inclusion of D weapons makes the game even more unbalanced and therefore unfun than it used to be and the ability to turn down games does not help in that regard. I want to play a halfway balanced and fun game and not turn down my opponents (which is unfun for both sides) because the game's creators are too incompetent to actualy write decent rules.
Every other game company understands that even a casual game needs to offer all of it's players a halfway equal chance to win, yet GW stumbles around like drunk, without a clear concept or anything else more advanced than "do what you want, we don't care". If one wishes to offer variety in a game then all the options need to be at least somewhat viable. With the inclusion of massed D-weapons for certain armies, this is no longer the case.