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Recently, I started going to a new store to check out a new scene as well as test my skills with new people since I still consider myself a beginner still learning various tactics. Well, this past weekend they had an allies tournament (2 people partner up with a 3000 point limit, 1500 points to each player with allies rules in effect) so I went to check out to learn the meta of the store to see how I could fair against them. Pretty much, everyone set up ADL and just shot from opposite sides until the ending turns where they would rush the objective if it wasn't Purge the Alien. I play GK and the other store I played at didn't really do this, I saw Rhino walls but not really ADL spam and I have been contemplating how I should respond to this. To just try and rush them wouldn't work and I thought about deep striking my terminators or using my stormraven to drop them off but the quad cannon would be a huge problem for my stormraven. I am going to start running an eldar jetbike squad but I don't know how much this will help me. I have also thought that I might do the same taking ADL with Coteaz and a heavy support hechman squad to sit in there doing the same thing they are doing but I feel like I want to exploit this more than conform to it.

Great Knight LR redeemer roasting everyone behind the ADL?

Just a thought...

That would most certainly take care of it but fitting it into my army is the problem, I would have to remove something major in order to fit it somewhere into my army for that to work. But it is interesting, an almost interesting to remove the Stormraven to add that in there for that reason.

It's a pendulum swing. Lots of people invested in flyers, so lots of people seem to have invested in ADLs both to defend against flyers and to attack flyers, in armies that don't have better options. Now pretty much everyone who's likely to get an ADL has an ADL. Of course, knowing your opponent means you don't necessarily need one, even if you have one.

Shunting dreadknights with incinerators laugh at the ADL. Especially in groups of 2 or more.

Sorry for my ignorance of the GK codex, but do you have access to any useful dreadnoughts that you can stick in drop pods?

I'm a BA player and dropping in fragnoughts is my anti-gunline plan.

No drop pods for GK's.
But shunting DK's do work well, only problem is that they cost more than a LR.

Mass deep strike laughs at them. Or bring your Stormraven, just bring something more dangerous at the same time.

If your meta has a strength, list building will always cater to it.

Purgators sound like a strong option for Astral Aim, Get 4 guys in a rhino with psycannons, a teleport homer and a justicar halberd.

The homer also allows you to deepstrike the Dreadknight.

Perfect Timing + Astral Aim for lots of fun.

Get up close and personal? No wait, that's an ork strategy.

But yeah, you could try and close the gap between them, and perhaps take out their wall guns, as long as you don't give under "their" meta. Just my two cents.

Interceptors. I know they don't see much action these days, but that shunt, combined with 2 Incinerators will put the hurt on a lot of things hiding behind an ADL. Combine the Dreadknight shunt as well, and it's fun all round.

Or ally in some Eldar Dark Reapers and a Farseer, hope for Perfect Timing and laugh as even Space Marines find their ADL protects them no more...

What about mordrak's non scattering deepstrike in the first turn? Could nicely vaporise what ever is behind the line?

What are you using in your list? Maybe it's more of a tactics issue than not bringing the right units.

I haven't actually played at this store yet, I was just watching and seeing the local meta and this struck me. The list I plan to play is this:
Grey Knights:
HQ:
Coteaz

Troops:
10 GKSS 2 psycannons psybolt ammunition
Rhino

10 Terminators 2 psycannons 5 hammers 5 Halberds psybolt ammunition

Henchman-
2 Jokaero
3 Warrior Acolytes plasma gun power armor
3 Servitors multi-melta


Fast Attack:
Stormraven TL multi-melta Assault Cannon psybolt ammunition


Heavy Support:
Dreadnought 2 TL Autocannon psybolt ammunition
Dreadnought 2 TL Autocannon psybolt ammunition

Eldar:

HQ:
Farseer on Jetbike

Troops:
9 Jetbikes 3 Shuriken Cannons

9 Jetbikes 3 Shuriken Cannons

Your Eldar allies are kind of weak. Ally in IG and take a Manticore - S10 Ordnance Barrage laughs at ADLs, especially when Coteaz gives the thing Prescience.

I don't know what your willing to move, but swap the Henchmen for 2-3 Crusaders, and then load up on max Death Cult Assassins, frag and rad grenades, etc. Throw em the StormRaven (can you do that?) or swap that for a LR. DS your terminators, then rush your HQ forward. Force them to pick which they focus on, then assault with the other one. Minimum change to your force, and honestly that little HQ unit will work against most things that aren't dedicated CC monsters.

Envihon wrote:Pretty much, everyone set up ADL and just shot from opposite sides until the ending turns where they would rush the objective

Welcome to 6th edition 40k.

Actually, if you're playing one of the strongest combinations at the moment, you don't even need to bother with the ADL - you get a better return on your investment by just buying more guns.

If this doesn't seem like your cup of tea, then the best thing you can do is find different people to play against. People who are willing to play a game, rather than merely yahtzee with miniatures loosely involved. That or house rule the hell out of it. That or don't play 40k (or, at least not this edition of it). The one thing that won't fix it is tactics. This is a structural flaw of the game right now, not something that player skill (which is a slippery subject in a dice game to begin with) can fix.

Well the good news is that 'cutting edge' meta has largely abandoned the Aegis, wait a few months for your store to catch up, lol.

The best way to counter it, that costs almost nothing, is say you feel more comfortable playing the terrain rules by the book. Thus they place their Aegis, then you roll on terrain. On your turn, drop a huge piece of LOS blocking terrain in front of it. Problem solved. If the store doesn't have LOS blocking terrain in the kit, bring your own. There's nothing wrong with adding some terrain to a FLGS stockpile anyway.

FLG has a good guide on how to make awesome LOS blockers out of beer cans. Now you get to drink some beer. Win win

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/09/04/uncle-sam-wants-you-to-use-line-of-sight-blocking-terrain/

 anonymou5 wrote:
Well the good news is that 'cutting edge' meta has largely abandoned the Aegis, wait a few months for your store to catch up, lol.

The best way to counter it, that costs almost nothing, is say you feel more comfortable playing the terrain rules by the book. Thus they place their Aegis, then you roll on terrain. On your turn, drop a huge piece of LOS blocking terrain in front of it. Problem solved. If the store doesn't have LOS blocking terrain in the kit, bring your own. There's nothing wrong with adding some terrain to a FLGS stockpile anyway.

FLG has a good guide on how to make awesome LOS blockers out of beer cans. Now you get to drink some beer. Win win

http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2013/09/04/uncle-sam-wants-you-to-use-line-of-sight-blocking-terrain/

That is such a dick move that it borders on unsportsmanlike. Your opponent paid the points for the model, let him use it. If you can't handle it, change your list or don't play. Don't be 'That Guy'. If I knew a player would insist on placing terrain after fortifications for the express purpose of screwing me over like that, I wouldn't play him.

Note: I'm not saying don't use LoS blocking terrain; I'm talking about placing it directly in front of a Quadgun Fortification so that the gun can't fire.

As for dealing with the ADL w/gun: Shoot the gun. It's T7 with 2 wounds, 3+/4++. One of my regular opponents has a ADL, and he sets up a Predator Annihilator right behind it. Turn 1, he's shooting the crap out of my ADL until the gun is gone. Once that happens, the ADL is just another piece of terrain. For the GK player above, why not use your two Dreads and just shoot the gun? Or just ignore it? It still needs to roll really well and you need to roll pretty bad to really feel the effects of the gun on your army. AV12 Stormravens laugh at ADL's. Or 9 jet bikes turbo boosting up the flank to shoot the gun from behind works.

The ADL is just too good not to take. It's actually one of the best bargains in 6th Ed. For 100 points, you get a 4++ cover save that improves to 2++ if you go to ground behind it, and you can get a Quadgun, 4 shots, TL, skyfire, and interceptor. That is so good for so many armies that don't have any other way to get skyfire or interceptor. The meta is shifting away from ADL's because all the 6th ed codexes so far have some way for your army to get something similar. I've looked at the ADL as basically a stop-gap unit until you get a 6th Ed codex.

 Tamwulf wrote:


That is such a dick move that it borders on unsportsmanlike. Your opponent paid the points for the model, let him use it. If you can't handle it, change your list or don't play. Don't be 'That Guy'. If I knew a player would insist on placing terrain after fortifications for the express purpose of screwing me over like that, I wouldn't play him.

Note: I'm not saying don't use LoS blocking terrain; I'm talking about placing it directly in front of a Quadgun Fortification so that the gun can't fire.

As for dealing with the ADL w/gun: Shoot the gun. It's T7 with 2 wounds, 3+/4++. One of my regular opponents has a ADL, and he sets up a Predator Annihilator right behind it. Turn 1, he's shooting the crap out of my ADL until the gun is gone. Once that happens, the ADL is just another piece of terrain. For the GK player above, why not use your two Dreads and just shoot the gun? Or just ignore it? It still needs to roll really well and you need to roll pretty bad to really feel the effects of the gun on your army. AV12 Stormravens laugh at ADL's. Or 9 jet bikes turbo boosting up the flank to shoot the gun from behind works.

The ADL is just too good not to take. It's actually one of the best bargains in 6th Ed. For 100 points, you get a 4++ cover save that improves to 2++ if you go to ground behind it, and you can get a Quadgun, 4 shots, TL, skyfire, and interceptor. That is so good for so many armies that don't have any other way to get skyfire or interceptor. The meta is shifting away from ADL's because all the 6th ed codexes so far have some way for your army to get something similar. I've looked at the ADL as basically a stop-gap unit until you get a 6th Ed codex.

Yeah, my group of friends had pretty much this same discussion. The easy way to solve it is implementation of the house rule of "Don't be a dick."

It looks like your list lacks some punch.

1. I love Dreadnoughts, but I don't get a ton of return on their 4 S8 shots. I'd drop one, kit the other one out with dual flamers and psyflame ammo, put it in the Stormraven, and use the Raven as an assault platform for that bad boy.

2. Take advantage of the fact that your troops can deep strike. Don't bother with a Rhino for your strike squad, they can teleport behind the ADL along with the Termies. Teleport, shoot, wait a turn, then shoot/assault. Rinse and repeat. My first army was GK, and I didn't realize how lucky I was to have basic troops that could Deep Strike. Take advantage of it.

3. Put Coteaz in a Chimera with the Jokaero/Servitor squad. That's a good anti-infantry squad there with Coteaz' support. Hopefully get Forewarning (or whatever removes cover saves), and Prescience, and go to town.

4. Someone else said it, but your Eldar allies are fairly useless here. Jetbikes are FANTASTIC late game objective takers, but you don't need 9 of them, and your Farseer really isn't doing jack for them. Farseers are not monsters that will kill things for you, they are force multipliers. And with just 2 squads of jetbikes, that's not much of a force to multiply. If you want Eldar allies, drop everything for a Spiritseer (cuz he's cheap) in a wave serpent with 5 dire avengers, then take another 3 man jetbike squad. That gives you some speed that GK lack.

My original thinking of taking the jetbikes and the farseer was to give me the mobility that I lack from the GK army as well as give me the troop numbers that I don't have with GK. It was a way to take down some troops easily and provide enough of a distraction to let some of my other forces to go to work. I have had a lot of success with the dreads and the heavy weapon squads but they always shine so brightly to attract attention and be the first ones that they go after. I was hoping that with so many jetbikes around and the fact that they can hop in and out that they would provide enough of a threat as to distract them away from going after the henchman and my dreads. Also, one of the dreads is already on the Stormraven while the other uses the rhino for cover.

The idea for the jetbikes actually came after someone did just that, took an objective on the last turn to get those VP points. I have been thinking of at least dropping one of the 9 man squads of jetbikes and then breaking the remaining one into three separate squads of three and then filling in the rest with something that you suggested with the dire avengers in the wave serpent.

I really like the Farseer and what it can bring to the table. It probably is one of my favorite units outside of the GK codex which is why I am trying to make it work.

My idea for the Eldar was to get in there, unload and get back out while my GK took the battle of attrition to the enemy since GK are more defensible than Eldar. I don't want the Eldar to do the mainline fighting but make up for what the GK lack which is speed so I don't know how I feel about going up and just dumping the Dire Avengers off. I understand that I can outfit that Wave Serpent pretty well but what exactly do I take on it or keep it stock without any additions?

Coteaz with his henchman was always a heavy weapons squad designed to deal with armor more than infantry so I never expect to move them. They are suppose to stay put and shoot the crap out of any vehicles that come along. Along with my Dreads and the Stormraven is all meant to be anti-amor.

The GKSS, and the Terminators along with the Jetbikes, with the Stormraven's assault cannon were meant to be my anti-infantry with the GK forces shooting until they got up close and then would take care of the rest in close combat with my jetbikes running around causing mayhem and the like. The Termies actually ride around in the Stormraven as well and I unload them where I need them either to break a line or capture an objective.

The Farseer and the jetbikes were a cheap solution (points wise) to give me more numbers on the battlefield and give me the mobility I was lacking. They replaced a 10 man GKSS with a rhino and a techmarine for the stormraven to give me some more numbers without sacrificing the toughness of my army (a weakness of the henchman unfortunately). I was also thinking possibly have one jetbike squad still but take guardians with a bright lance in a wave serpent.

Now this was a theoretical list also, I actually haven't bought it or had the time to test it.

The local grey knight player that usually wins the tourneys uses 3 dreadknight shunters with heavy incins and 3 units of intercepter shunters with combos of incineraters and psycannons (a few hammers mixed in as well) broken into combat squads
the remainder of his points he puts into coatex and 3 units ofacolytes carrying bolters who sit back and hide in his deployment zone. Sometimes, these will be in razorbacks, but usually chimeras. the army makes very short work of ADL hiders.

From what I have seen in the tourney circuit, your seeing an oddity. While a lot of players do use the ADL,most players mix up their other units a bit to where the entire army doesnt sit back. The only ones ive seen do that are tau and guard. the others have short and midrange squads that move forward or even assault squads that move forward.

I am really starting to see that people are moving more towards the GK Interceptors and DK incerator + teleporter to take care of the mobility problem that GK seems to suffer from and I can see that it has been working for a lot of people. My only problem, is how does that GK player deal with armor? Psycannons are nice but I have seen their limitations. Yes, you can crack armor but only if you sit for a turn to get the chance for a rend and from the way I understand it, those interceptors are meant to be moving constantly. I know you said that he sticks to hammers but that sometimes isn't enough at least in my experience. It's mainly why, I went to using the heavy support henchman squad that I do and the two dreads in my army.

That also begs, how does he sit and hold objectives?

I think this is why I am moving more towards using the Eldar allies to do what shunt lists are doing now. Have my GK handle the heavy stuff and people able to get through more things while letting the Eldar clean up troops and capture objectives. My GKSS and Termie squads have yet to let me down but they do move too slow without the Rhinos or Stormraven getting them where they need to go.

I understand I may have went a little overkill on the jetbikes but I am still thinking of using them especially in objective based games but toning them down a great deal and filling the gap with other Eldar units, kind of leaning towards a Guardian or Dire Avenger squad with the Farseer in a Wave serpent.

The dreadknighta are great at popping armor like grapes. even land raiders. The Hammer in each of the intercepter squads of combat squads also works wonders towards popping armor.

For the objectives, with that many squads and combat squads and so forth out there, if you dont outright table your opponent, you will easily be able to contest any objective they want to go after. The 3 squads held back in your own deployment zone with acolytes /chimeras claim any in your own deployment zone with no contest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The dreadknighta are great at popping armor like grapes. even land raiders. The Hammer in each of the intercepter squads of combat squads also works wonders towards popping armor.

For the objectives, with that many squads and combat squads and so forth out there, if you dont outright table your opponent, you will easily be able to contest any objective they want to go after. The 3 squads held back in your own deployment zone with acolytes /chimeras claim any in your own deployment zone with no contest.