Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Probably best to go seperate, then compare and keep things in check and balanced, and maybe then combine (or hell just offer two different flavors, I dunno).

I kinda went into a writing frenzy after saying that and have weapons and hq/elite/troops done, with a few fast attack. This'll probably need a lot of editing/comments by not-me but I figure I'll be putting something up on here 'round thursday morning?

Nova wrote:Probably best to go seperate, then compare and keep things in check and balanced, and maybe then combine (or hell just offer two different flavors, I dunno).

I kinda went into a writing frenzy after saying that and have weapons and hq/elite/troops done, with a few fast attack. This'll probably need a lot of editing/comments by not-me but I figure I'll be putting something up on here 'round thursday morning?

Feel free to send any of it my way, I can bounce some thoughts back to you usually in a couple of hours at latest.
gregskirybski@yahoo.com

I'll probably have something incomplete but readable/workable later tonight that's worth sending.

A lot of units won't actually see much change (except the ethereals. let's just say they're about to get more expensive due to what I'll simply refer to as "ether bomb" potential) but instead bonuses come from the markerlight 'combo' system I'm still refining around (see page 19 or so for the basics I was pulling out my rear as I thought them up)

@focusedfire: They do look pretty sweet though,
come on admit
come on
come on
you know they look awesome.

Already did. I will even go further and say the walkers look better and more natural than the sentinels that were cannabalized to make them.

Just don't see GW taking that route, IMHO.


@Nova and everyone else interested-

I'll start working on a base out-line and try to get it to all of you in the next day or so.

right. uh, this is probably too big already to just put up on a thread here... I'm converting what I have so far to .pdf to send to you che-vito (if you want it, focused, no problem), though I'll need to figure out where this can be put a bit more openly.

yadda yadda yadda, the usual disclaimers and fair-use stuff, all stats have been written up by me and if you try to use this as the stats of the current codex you'll be wrong which is why its okay to post etceteraetcetera I'll figure something out.

The list (I'm not touching special characters with a ten foot pole) is done, weapons are done, wargear and battlesuit weapon/cost list not done yet; I got lazy so its nowhere near readable just yet so I'm cutting that out of what's being sent, and tentative prices are around.

In most cases a 2000pt army will see less savings than the equivalent IG, but the markerlight system and slight buffs to many units (battlesuits are mostly BS4 now for example, broadsides integrated slow&purposeful; A.S.S. will make'em relentless; commander heavy naturally is to begin with, barracuda and remora integrated to army list as 'fast skimmers', and so on.)

My aim's to make it average: numbers hopefully running middleground between IG and Eldar: Firepower good, but most of the 'power' is from point efficiency on better-than-guard models (especially if combined with markerlights) instead of actual high numbers save for battlesuits (which are the usual expensive-but-strong/versastile stuff we know and love).

If you want I can play test and make some battle reports on it, it will not be much of a problem just pm me and I will give you the adress to send the rules to.

I've started on mine. its gonna take a bit and I'll need someone to walk me through where to put the PDF when I'm finished.

@Nova- you can PM me with where to go to get your pdf. I'm not gonna look until I get done though. I think a seprate then compare approach might be enlightening.

mine's pretty close to complete and now includes the equipment sections/costs. Che's suggestions brought on some minor tweaks to the markerlight system though from the lack of complaints I guess its fairly solid and simple overall.

Gonna need to figure out where to put it up, myself, too.

edit: I am somewhat worried I may not have 'codex-crept' enough to allow a fair match against Imperial Guard, but if I did not, it should be close enough to not matter too much. Also need to figure out some way to reduce KPs; I've already made vehicle drones non-kp but not sure that can be enough.

I would like a copy, please.

I'll be happy to look at them as well.

Nova, I salute your speed. I'm only just finishing the army special rules. Hopefully everything else will go more quickly.

Question, Suggested lay out or format?

I'm hand writing the out-line and then typing up from there. Just looking for tricks that will get me past this old scholl habit of mine.


Also, Should I use this forum as a sounding board for some of my ideas or should I use my friend and then surprise everyone with a finished copy?

In case no one has ever noticed from my posts I tend to be a little meticulous and will go back and edit for typos.

Well, wish me luck and feel free to PM me concerning this.

Well primary special army rules can probably be discussed. I've already given most of mine. For sake of saving 20 pages of rereading I'll repost one or two here:

EMP: EMP grenades and weapons operate the same way, affecting only models with an Armour Value. Roll 1d6. on a 4+ the target vehicle suffers a Glancing hit.EMP weapons with a strength value roll to hit and armour-penetration normally, in addition to the EMP roll. These weapons only ever deal glancing hits.
(no longer penetrating, but combine with an ion lance (no it doesn't have the lance rule) for up to 4 glances per vehicle: vicious on void shields and stunning AV14!)

'Weapon Sacrifice: Battlesuit wearers of Shas'Vre, Shas'Ui and Shas'O rank have extensive combat experience and can, in dire situations, reduce otherwise critical damage to themselves by interposing a valuable piece of hardware and taking the hit on their own terms.

Should model of rank Shas'Vre or higher with more than one wound remaining suffer an unsaved Instant Death wound, the model may choose to instead sacrifice a weapon or support system. The Attacker chooses the weapon or support system, treating it as any vehicle 'weapon destroyed' result: The system is inoperative and/or loses all effect for the remainder of the game.

Models with 2 wounds maximum roll 1d6: on a 1-3, remove the model as a casualty. On a 4+ they take a single wound in exchange for the lost weapon or support system. Models with 3 or more wounds need not roll, and are automatically left with a single remaining wound (and one less weapon or support system). Twin-Linked systems count as a single weapon for purposes of this rule.'
(basically a half-powered version of Eternal Warrior)

" While not considered Expendable, they are nevertheless programmed to shield their attached Unit from attack. Considered full models in most circumstances, wargear Drones count as half models when determining a Unit's fighting strength for morale purposes, rounded down. Drones mounted or detatched from Vehicles are considered part of that vehicle for purposes of Kill points and do not give the opponent a point if destroyed, but do not prevent it being awarded if they remain on the table after the vehicle has been destroyed.

For example: A Squad of 6 models accompanied by a single drone remains above half strength after losing 3 models + drone. A Squad of 5 models + drone, however, is under half-strength after losing 3 models, even though the drone is still around. Drones form a special unit with their owner: Independant characters may still join other units with their drones in tow."
(part of the part on drones)

I've been making little mock lists and tweaking points a bit... shas'ui broadsides back to BS3 despite higher cost but the rail's now heavy 2 (costs 30 instead of 25 to install on a commander though)... etc...

Not your whole thing (we'll need to figure out where to put this all up; it DOES add up to a lot of pages), but perhaps ideas/concepts and what you're working/focusing on playstyle/changeswise?

edit: damn thing's about 15 pages though a good 2 of those are just from my having notes/explanations of 'where I'm going with this' in the margins: though fluff and systems that aren't changed from the original codex I haven't written in at all (like shield and marker drone stats, other than their cost).

Ok I'm giving a couple. Please bear in mind that I'm still hammering out balance details and that I've changed my position on some things such as standard toughnesses.

Alien Auxilla and Gue 'Vesa Alliances-

The Tau may Take alien auxilla as long as an Ethereal is taken as one of the HQ choices. The Tau may also sacrifice the ability to take Kroot, Vespid and any other Alien Auxilla to make use of the Gue 'Vesa Auxilla list below. This restriction represents both the lingering human xenophobia for races too alien(Insectiod and Cannabalistic Carnivores) and the difficulty of Commanding a multi-lingual/cultural force.

With the help of the Fire and Earth Castes the Humans living in the Tau empire are able to defend themselves. The Earth Caste has helped the Humans to reconstruct their factories and armouries to where the Gue 'Vesa are producing the weapons with which they are the most familiar. The Fire Caste has help with the retraining of the Gue'Vesa citizen militia to the point of Equaling Imperial training. When there is a need the Tau will call upon the most highly trained and experienced of these militia units to contribute their service to the Greater Good

The following units may be taken exactly as listed in their codex with the exceptions of there will be no Special characters, Commisars, Pyskers, advisors,or priests allowed. Valkeries/Vendettas will be replaced by DevilFish but Chimeras will still be allowed as dedicated transports

The player will be able to take up to 4 of these units but as limited per type in the list below and will occupy the FOC slots as listed.

Elites- Storm Troopers
Max number of squads allowed: 2

Troops- Veterans
Max number of squads allowed: 2

Fast Attack- Scout Sentinels
Max number of squads allowed: 1

Heavy Support- LRBT Squadron(All Tanks must be the same type)

Thes units both hate and are hated by their former masters. In any game where they Face IG,SM's or any other force of the Imperium they always hit and are hit on a roll of 3+ in Close Combat.



Guerilla Tactics-

The Tau do not fight to hold ground but they instead hunt. Teams are sent out to eliminate or harass specific enemy units while other portions of the cadre manuevere to support these units or work there way towards mission critical objectives.

To represent these tactics any Tau unit, including alien auxilla and drones, that did not move during their movement phase may choose to voluntarily fallback. This fallback occurs at the beginning of their opponents assualt phase before he any assaulting models are moved and can be in any direction(Does not have to be towards their own table edge.) If the unit is caught in Close Combat the same turn they voluntarily fall back they are automatically destroyed with the opponent getting to sweeping advance if they are normally allowed to do such.

In subsequent turns the Tau have to test as normal to regroup. If these tests are failed they then fallback as normal and follow all of the normal rules for such.


Markerlights-

Any unit in a Tau force may benefit from the effect and hits from friendly Tau Markerlight. The only exception to this is the Kroot who disdain such technologies that increase personal abilities as being counter to the way of the shapers.



I have one more Army special rule but I'll wait on it for a bit.

I don't know if it shows but I'm working from the point of making the Tau fit their fluff a bit more. I'm giving them more manuverability in what I beleive to be a balanced manner and am working on including all of the sizable factions within the Tau empire without over filling the book with redundancies from other codices.

There will be Character special abilities that enhance these army rules such as, the Command and Control Node allowing units tha fallback off the table edge to be put into reserve.


What do you think so far?

@Nova-Yeah, I've got a lot of pages already, too. I'm leaving a lot of the basic weapons alone but stupid me is doing almost an entire rewrite of anything that isn't fluff and even a little of what is just to clarify reasons for doing so.


Edited for typos

@Killkrazy-Do we have to write these up and send them in as pdf's or is there a place that we can type them up on Dakka?

Even if we do them as pdf's what part of Dakka do we send them to when we are done?

For Gue'Vesa I went the other way; I figure after one or two generations a lot of humans may get training/assignment right alongside the regular fire warrior teams; to the point where while not found elsewhere in the Fire Caste, a FW team doesn't matter if human/tau, and may be led by either a shas'ui or sergeant (with pulse pistol and CCW). I figure guard doctrine is one thing that's easily modified and integrated fully into at least low level fire teams: "take gun, follow orders, fire at things".

I like the guerilla tactics rule, but I feel its a bit too restrictive; auto-destroyed? I get the feeling a lot of units that would like to try that will just get swept up and slaughtered, when they would've just died more slowly and tied up the target for longer if they'd stayed around.

While I'm staying away from special characters, the options given to battlesuit commanders by now in my case make them even more "well you might as well just take a commander" than before, which I guess can be viewed as a bad thing, but is really a good thing too. a heavier (doesn't have stealth, and so if teamed with xv25's will lose that for them, but does have the field generator) stealth (xv4 class) and a lighter (free ASS integrated) XV6 rated suit are additional options; just a matter of adding a little flavor and commander-upgrade taste to "stealth and broadside commander options". they're a bit more expensive than the xv8 of course, and have their own weapon lists, but you'll probably find yourself trying to decide what to take given only a few hq slots.

Nova wrote:Well primary special army rules can probably be discussed. I've already given most of mine. For sake of saving 20 pages of rereading I'll repost one or two here:

EMP: EMP grenades and weapons operate the same way, affecting only models with an Armour Value. Roll 1d6. on a 4+ the target vehicle suffers a Glancing hit.EMP weapons with a strength value roll to hit and armour-penetration normally, in addition to the EMP roll. These weapons only ever deal glancing hits.
(no longer penetrating, but combine with an ion lance (no it doesn't have the lance rule) for up to 4 glances per vehicle: vicious on void shields and stunning AV14!)

Ever play against Necrons? Sure sounds like the Gauss rule only slightly better. I'd hate to think that the Tau are stepping on another races toes/special ability.

'Weapon Sacrifice: Battlesuit wearers of Shas'Vre, Shas'Ui and Shas'O rank have extensive combat experience and can, in dire situations, reduce otherwise critical damage to themselves by interposing a valuable piece of hardware and taking the hit on their own terms.

Should model of rank Shas'Vre or higher with more than one wound remaining suffer an unsaved Instant Death wound, the model may choose to instead sacrifice a weapon or support system. The Attacker chooses the weapon or support system, treating it as any vehicle 'weapon destroyed' result: The system is inoperative and/or loses all effect for the remainder of the game.

Models with 2 wounds maximum roll 1d6: on a 1-3, remove the model as a casualty. On a 4+ they take a single wound in exchange for the lost weapon or support system. Models with 3 or more wounds need not roll, and are automatically left with a single remaining wound (and one less weapon or support system). Twin-Linked systems count as a single weapon for purposes of this rule.'
(basically a half-powered version of Eternal Warrior)

Instant death was never really a problem with my battlesuits. Upping suits to T5 really solves any problems with instant death and is a lot less complicated to boot. Doing this almost madates magnets for suit weapon mounts.

" While not considered Expendable, they are nevertheless programmed to shield their attached Unit from attack. Considered full models in most circumstances, wargear Drones count as half models when determining a Unit's fighting strength for morale purposes, rounded down. Drones mounted or detatched from Vehicles are considered part of that vehicle for purposes of Kill points and do not give the opponent a point if destroyed, but do not prevent it being awarded if they remain on the table after the vehicle has been destroyed.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say drones never count for squad strength or casulity removal. Tau know that drones are expendible, thus the loss of one or all doesn't phase their fighting prowess. Thus drones are nothing more than ablative wounds. Ex. If you have a unit of three firewarriors and one drone and the drone dies the unit doesn't have to test for 25% casulties. This would also go a long way to keeping sniper drone squadons around.l Sure its sounds strong, but isn't that what we are going for?

focusedfire wrote:Ok I'm giving a couple. Please bear in mind that I'm still hammering out balance details and that I've changed my position on some things such as standard toughnesses.

Alien Auxilla and Gue 'Vesa Alliances-

The Tau may Take alien auxilla as long as an Ethereal is taken as one of the HQ choices. The Tau may also sacrifice the ability to take Kroot, Vespid and any other Alien Auxilla to make use of the Gue 'Vesa Auxilla list below. This restriction represents both the lingering human xenophobia for races too alien(Insectiod and Cannabalistic Carnivores) and the difficulty of Commanding a multi-lingual/cultural force.


The following units may be taken exactly as listed in their codex with the exceptions of there will be no Special characters, Commisars, Pyskers, advisors,or priests allowed. Valkeries/Vendettas will be replaced by DevilFish but Chimeras will still be allowed as dedicated transports

The player will be able to take up to 4 of these units but as limited per type in the list below and will occupy the FOC slots as listed.

Elites- Storm Troopers
Max number of squads allowed: 2

Troops- Veterans
Max number of squads allowed: 2

Fast Attack- Scout Sentinels
Max number of squads allowed: 1

Heavy Support- LRBT Squadron(All Tanks must be the same type)

Thes units both hate and are hated by their former masters. In any game where they Face IG,SM's or any other force of the Imperium they always hit and are hit on a roll of 3+ in Close Combat.

Not only no, but hell no. I personally want to keep humans out of my Tau. I know fluff says that there are human allies, but I don't want them on the table top. We are a xenos army. Aliens all the way. This of course is just my opinion, but if I wanted to play humans I'd play Empire fantasy. Better rules, besides, why this when you can just take two detachments. Say 1000 points of Tau and 750 points of guard. Nothing wrong with that right? It produces the exact same results, but better choices for the human parts. So you can't take it to tournaments, but then again I ask, are you playing Tau or Guard?

Guerilla Tactics-

The Tau do not fight to hold ground but they instead hunt. Teams are sent out to eliminate or harass specific enemy units while other portions of the cadre manuevere to support these units or work there way towards mission critical objectives.

To represent these tactics any Tau unit, including alien auxilla and drones, that did not move during their movement phase may choose to voluntarily fallback. This fallback occurs at the beginning of their opponents assualt phase before he any assaulting models are moved and can be in any direction(Does not have to be towards their own table edge.) If the unit is caught in Close Combat the same turn they voluntarily fall back they are automatically destroyed with the opponent getting to sweeping advance if they are normally allowed to do such.

In subsequent turns the Tau have to test as normal to regroup. If these tests are failed they then fallback as normal and follow all of the normal rules for such.

Leave off the auto destroyed if caught and it sounds doable. No other race has a downside to pulling these type of stunts, why should we?

@Nova and Jayden-
My thoughts on the Tau concerning other cultures is that they actually value diversity as long as the other culture accepts the greater good. It would, also, allow for some of those incredible sentinel conversions I've seen to be fielded.

As for the Guerilla tactics the fallback is 2d6 so I figured the occaisonal unit getting caught would balance out the exploitive factor. You'll see that I left out a distance for the enemy to be within. This is going to make the Tau hard to catch, in a slippery as an eel kind of way.

Due to there being no restriction on how close the enemy is I felt doing it in the shooting phase was too powerful. It also has the tactical advantage of the opponent having already moved his models. Things work out well and Guerilla Tactics could mean up to an effective 18" redeployment.


Seeing as you've told me some of the direction you took, I'll give you a bit of return.

Emp grenades the same but warheads and Ion weaponry now have special emp based rules.

I think that I also may have come up with an elegant solution to some of the drone problems by mixing some of my ideas with what others have posted on this forum.

You and I are moving along similar paths as to Command squad survivability. Different means of accomplishing a similar effect as it were.

Keep up the Good Work, I like what I'm seeing of yours so far. I think it will be a very interesting comparison when we are done.

@Jayden-
There is nothing forcing you to use the Gue 'Vesa. Just bringing in a popular item. I feel I did it in a way that didn't harm the Tau flavour and if someone wants to run them they'll have to buy a new IG book.

You'll understand my other reasons for them being there when you see the rest of the Fan-dex. I will hint that I'm trying to make the list very flexible with a variety of builds that reflects the variety that Tau culture supports.

focusedfire wrote:
@Jayden-
There is nothing forcing you to use the Gue 'Vesa. Just bringing in a popular item. I feel I did it in a way that didn't harm the Tau flavour and if someone wants to run them they'll have to buy a new IG book.

You'll understand my other reasons for them being there when you see the rest of the Fan-dex. I will hint that I'm trying to make the list very flexible with a variety of builds that reflects the variety that Tau culture supports.

They shouldn't even be there tech wise. Why would the Tau resort to using inferior tech (the battle tanks, chimera, and Valkys). Why would they even want to have their advanced grav tech on the pirahna's, hammerheads and devilfish mixed in with the medevil look of the the Guard tanks.

You and others have said that Tau should dominate by their Tech yet your willing to roll in clunky out dated IG equipment (looking at design and fluff, not tabletop performance). Also the guard units would be hamstrung if it weren't for their orders, specials. Its what allows their units to function at that higher level. Howzibout giving the Tau the tools needed to win within their own cast rather than having to rely on another armies units and gimicks.

This is just my opinion, but the very idea that you can make human aux a scoring aspect of a Tau army sickens me. We are TAU! The very idea of trading out Firewarriors for guardsmen should not even be possible. Firewarriors, battlesuits, grav tanks. At the core, its what makes Tau Tau. Your allowing for way too much "not Tau" in the army, regardless of how it is modeled. You say incorporating humans helps make them flexable/adaptable. But that's not Tau philosophy/culture. Its doesn't have that verity that you speak of. Tau philosophy is "Its our way or the highway". You use the weapons we give you, you fight for our goals/ideals, anything less is grounds for extermination, after all, if you are not part of the greater good, you are against it.

focusedfire wrote:@Killkrazy-Do we have to write these up and send them in as pdf's or is there a place that we can type them up on Dakka?

Even if we do them as pdf's what part of Dakka do we send them to when we are done?

The Article system might be the place to put them. Contact Malfred to check if he is worried about any IP issue.

Jayden63 wrote:Ever play against Necrons? Sure sounds like the Gauss rule only slightly better. I'd hate to think that the Tau are stepping on another races toes/special ability.

Not at all, and far from it. First off the gauss = wound regardless of toughness on a 6 to wound. Against vehicles, any roll of a 6, even against AV14 by a gauss flayer (that thing those 50 warriors have) is a glance; you only don't glance if instead your roll penetrated. It always glances unless it penetrates.

The EMP (first off except for TWO weapons; the disposable seeker and a limited availability vehicle weapon, its only found on the EMP grenades for infantry which were always available) has chance of 'additional' hit in a single specific case (a weapon designed to account for this), the rule's been weakened from what it used to be (no longer penetrating hits). its still weaker than haywire eldar grenades, as it always has been. But gauss this is not; gauss rends and autoglances.

Instant death was never really a problem with my battlesuits. Upping suits to T5 really solves any problems with instant death and is a lot less complicated to boot. Doing this almost madates magnets for suit weapon mounts.

Not in my experience. its always krak missiles and lascannons and battlecannon templates and so on. Upping to T5 I feel would make them too resilient for their cost, and I'd rather not have wraithlords. And its no harder to indicate a destroyed suit weapon than it is to indicate a blown sponsoon. a little cottonball on the thing and that's all good.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say drones never count for squad strength or casulity removal. Tau know that drones are expendible, thus the loss of one or all doesn't phase their fighting prowess. Thus drones are nothing more than ablative wounds. Ex. If you have a unit of three firewarriors and one drone and the drone dies the unit doesn't have to test for 25% casulties. This would also go a long way to keeping sniper drone squadons around.l Sure its sounds strong, but isn't that what we are going for?

Part of the problem is they're not expendable. The concept of sacrificial pawns and attrition warfare are pretty alien to the tau after all. This way, while, granted, a wee bit more complex (though honestly its longer/tougher to write out as a rule than to understand and explain at the table) it keeps the drones as having value: you don't run because someone blew 2 guys and a drone, but if you had 6 in there and lost all of them, well, you almost bought it too, maybe its time to find a tree to hide under.

edit: -lasguns, + lascannon. they haven't S9AP2'd the lasgun just quite yet.
problem with T5 is they'd need a fair bit more cost and I'm not sure they really should qualify anyways. At T4, they're a highly mobile pair of 'heavy weapon teams', but they should still be likely to pop if you throw a battlecannon shell right at them.

Jayden-

Yes the Tau should dominate with their Tech. But, there is this concept of the Tau empire being very small and everyone pulls their weight. It is simply a numbers game. The tau don't just use the kroot and vespids for different skill sets. They need everybody they can get to man the front lines.

The Tau let the kroot on the field with their inferior tech and let them go to war in warsperes that aren't anything more than space hulks.

I'll also give you this little bit of rules to maybe ease your concerns.

Tau Targeters-

Any alien auxilla may purchase Tau Targeters as noted in their entry. The targeters allow the auxilla to benefit from and make use of the Tau markerlight systems and abilities.


@Kilkrazy-Thank you for your help.

I've got yet another version done, always refining things a little, but yeah, just a matter of how/where/when to put up or send.

At my flgs I got a sort of a sneak at part of the new guard codex it is not pretty.
Hellguns are now AP:3
So i'll put it like this. 10 stormtroopers ds infront of 10 tac marines and rapid fire, so thats 20 AP:3 shots, but if they have a colonel nearby/in the squad he can give a special order that doubles the amount of shots fired.

Also, the Valkyrie is 100pts without weapons and is a fast skimmer.

From what I've been shown its armed with searchlights, a couple of hellstrikes (think it was 4?), and a multilaser

Nova wrote:From what I've been shown its armed with searchlights, a couple of hellstrikes (think it was 4?), and a multilaser

I have a thought....

Krellnus wrote:At my flgs I got a sort of a sneak at part of the new guard codex it is not pretty.
Hellguns are now AP:3
So i'll put it like this. 10 stormtroopers ds infront of 10 tac marines and rapid fire, so thats 20 AP:3 shots, but if they have a colonel nearby/in the squad he can give a special order that doubles the amount of shots fired.

Also, the Valkyrie is 100pts without weapons and is a fast skimmer.

for both of you....this is a thread about upgrading the Tau Empire army, a review of the IG Codex can be found elsewhere. If you are trying to state that a unit of Deepstriking Stormtroopers would rape the gak out of most Tau units in a single turn....then connect the dots for us.

@Nova & Killkrazy- Malfred is checking into it. He implied that we should be able to handle it as we have been until they come up with an official answer/dakka policy.

So, more or less, we continue working on the Fan-Dex's in thread unless it threatens to completely hi-jack the thread. If this happens then we could just open a new more specific thread seemed to be the implication.

Hope this helps.



Now back to work for me. My versionis nearing completion. I'm just having to juggle a few things to get the balance right. The Tau rank/experience/skills/tech progression is turning out to be the most difficult thing to balance. Everything else is pretty much set.

I will be doing a couple of versions of the special rules and I may be asking for everyones opinion on a couple of things in them and about some basic stat-lines in the next day or so.

Kay, due to rl concerns, i havent been able to put much of a dent in this thread, (damnit how life gets in the way of stuff! ), and as such am only on p. 5, I wanted to read the thread so i would get a feel for the ideas people are gravitating towards, and those i feel are wrongly neglected. But i feel i should add my two cents worth and i especially like the ideas of focusedfire, killkrazy, and casper, though i may be biased. an i believe that in thee first 5 pages there is very little editing to do to them, (but maybe theres something i havent thought of in the 15+ pages i have yet to see

My feeling is that an army should stick to fluff, no matter what, any disadvantages are merely challenges that are all the more fun once crushed . Having said this, for me fluff is classic fluff, eg, Aun'shi never died. I have no respect for the manipulation of story-lines by GW for purely SM fetishistic/fiscal reasons. The space-pope is totallynot in keeping with my view of the Ethereals as philosophers, as he is more of a sensationalist religious leader. 'great rounding speeches' pfff.

focusedfire wrote:Tau are currently the only army where their special characters, in general, are not geared for the offensive. Tau are a ranged army, why don't Tau leaders have better ranged capabilities than the regular commanders? Yes Farsight is OK but he doesn't give a global offensive increase in any effective way other than free bonding knives. Its not like FWs become fearless(that'd be nice) and preffered enemy CC against orks only on initiative 2 models is someones idea of a bad joke.

I'm revising my wish list to include special characters and how I think the army should work. Please note that unless otherwise noted I'm fine with the points increasing to cover any extra abilities or increase in effectiveness.

Special Characters:
Farsight- Same profile but improved effect on army. So much so he gets his own list or codex. Army has across board improved intiative and WS bump. Also, access to bayonets and CC weapons and furious Assault against orks. Either his army gets Merc wargear or he gets unrestricted Tau equipment list at increased cost to represent the difficulty in getting equipement. Army still gets bonding knives free.(I know, this is to much) Fluff about Aun Shi finding and joining Farsight. Aun shi becomes only ethereal able to be used in Farsight army but loses special character and instead becomes an available upgrade character to a single FW squad.

Im gonna have to disagree with you there, I see O'shovah as a radical, an extremist. Not bad in any way, but in his aversion to what he perceived as inflexibility, he failed to see the capacity for compromise, or finding a middle-ground. And in his self-imposed disgust, he rashly decided to Secede. This is why I would support the first half of the above statement, him being overly devoted to developing his own way of things. But Aun'shi would be the more moderate of the two, but though remaining loyal to the Tau'va, I think he would sympathize with aspects of O'shovah's philosophies. As such i think he would be the only Ethereal Farsight would allow on his planets, and thus be in an army, but would cost extra (reflecting his responding to a call from Farsight, and coming all that way) and would give an additional boost to the understandable slightly home-sick FW. But i definitely think that Aun'shi would be trying (futilely) to reincorporate O'Shovah into the empire (through 101 discussions with Farsight of course)

focusedfire wrote:
ShadowSun-Stealth armour visibility is reduced to 2d6x2 for all steath suits in her army. She still gets the Command Link and Shield Drone retinue. She gets to take up to an additional 4 gun, or 2 marker, or 2 sniper drones in her retinue. Either there always has to be an ethereal(Ethereals become upgrade characters for troops in the next codex?Ethereal=Commisar) in her army or there are shas'el and shas 'o stealthsuit commanders available(You tell me which you like).Or both?

I like the idea with the honour guard of drones . Maybe make it 4 GD, + optional 1-2 either marker or sniper drones for extra. Ethereals, i think fluff-wise, even 2 on the field (non-apoc) is really pushing it. I think 1 per field is reasonable, since they are not the warrior caste. But they deffinitly should do more inspiring, and get rid of this LOS crap with the Moral boost. Maybe make a boost table-wide, and an extra boost within LOS?

focusedfire wrote:
Aun Va-Gets to call in Airstrikes ala DOW. Make it a S9 AP3 Ordinance available a limited number(what 2 or 3) of times a game. With etherals as an upgrade character Aun 'Va takes the current codex Ethereal bodyguard of improved FWs. Leave everything else the same.

Not much to add on the space-pope. not much of a fan of a guy who lazes around on a floating toilet while his men are dying. I believe he and O'shassera are extremists on the opposite end from farsight.

focusedfire wrote:
Regular Army and Characters:
Shas 'el and Shas'o xv-8 commanders-Get markerlight option. Fix Command Node to where it serves a purpose(leadership to everything within 12" except kroot). Fix Cyclic Ion Cannon(make it truly rending),Make Positional Relay worth taking get rid of 2+single unit and instead allow rerolls for all reserves(even successful ones).

Nothing to add here, perfect as is

focusedfire wrote:
Ethereals-Become buyable character for Tau FW squads.(what special rules should he have?)Makes the squad and only that squad stubborn or fealess but as soon as he dies they take that morale test. Just an idea.

Meh, not a fan of this idea, sry

focusedfire wrote:
Crisis Suits- Make the shield generator not take up a hard point on the suits. Allow for vectored thrusters on"squads" instead of "monats". Access to Rail Rifles?

I like it except the rail rifle. Im not really into this whole rail-rifle fetish with the new codex (keep in mind that i dropped Tau in 3e and am just picking it back up), I liked the idea of Railrifle snipers in PF squads even in 3e (expirimental of course) and i like the drones even more. But thats it, no more rail tech, or else i fear it will be as played-out and predictable as the bolter

focusedfire wrote:
Stealthsuits-Always get +1 bonus to coversaves. Access to railrifles or sniper drones.

Eh, maybe to the drones, but def no to the rifles, see above.

focusedfire wrote:
Fire Warriors-Access to special weapon drones and BS4 (Thanks Casper)enough said.

Yessir, this is where i could see your application of Flamer-drones as applicable, The tau dont believe in infantry having heavy weapons, but i just dont see thier philosophy going against heavy drone infantry support.

focusedfire wrote:
Carbines- Get rid of useless pinning rule and have it cut movement in half(No leadership test) if squad suffers a wound.

Photon Grenades-Lose "charge in" attack and counts as assaulting into difficult terrain.

I think carbines should also make them lose thier extra attacks, since there is an underslung grenade launcher.

focusedfire wrote:
Drones- Make them troops and give them Flamers(2 per squad max). Make drones fearless. No Heavy weapon drones,(Fluff excuse for limitation) they need a controller because no room for sophisticated AI. Marker Drones 20 pts.
Clarify that shield drones are extra invulnerable wounds and convey their invulnerable save onto the unit they are with. Whole unit gets the invulnerable in ranged attacks and rolls the saves at same time, remove all failed at same time starting with drones. If the unit started a saving roll with a shield drone then all get the save even if the drone is destroyed. Subsequent firing in that turn there is no save if no Shield drone. Drones only convey save on model with controller in CC.(Is that clear or confusing)

I think i get it, Drones can have flamers, but since drone squads act as a sort of supercomputer (linking thier AIs and acting as one) and since Heavy drones have very limited intelligence (just basic targeting and movement) due to space taken up by flamers or whatnot, Drone squads cannot take heavy drones.

focusedfire wrote:
Markerlights-No longer increase BS. No longer can impose leadership negatives. Cover save is reduced by number of markerlight hits expended for "all" units that shoot at squad in the same round. MarkerLights still fire Seeker missiles.

disagree on leadership front. hypothetical, you are hiding behind a rock, exchanging fire with some meanies, you turn around and there is a red dot on your buddies forehead. Then you hear the sound of either a helicopter or the woosh of a rocket launch. tell me something, are you going to be quite as brave as before you saw that dot?

focusedfire wrote:
Seeker Missles- Either give them AP1 or give them a blast option(S4 AP4).

YES!! Although Blast missiles will have to be declared at beginning, maybe different points cost? Since you wont be switching out the warheads of a live missile in the middle of a battle.

focusedfire wrote:
Kroot- Options from Merc list? Armor Save 5+. Can infiltrate with Kroot Ox. UpDate the Cover rules to apply to all cover. Give them a rudimentry explosive charge that can take out tanks. Make their guns assault 1 Range 18" or give them fleet.

Keep them armourless, i see them as something akin to Native americans (seen as savage, yet probably have a deep cultural heritage, low tech, harmony with land). But make the optional armour save 6+ at +1 pt, 5+ at +2pts, or 4+ at +4 pts. and keep the guns rapidfire, but give them a special rule that lets them fire and assault in the same turn. Also Fleet, and no penalty of difficult terrain, treat dangerous terrain as difficult, and impassable as dangerous, (maybe not last one, but still...) And count as stealth when in forest/wood/jungle

focusedfire wrote:
Vespids-Give them poison attacks +4 for regular +2 Strain Leaders(no insta-death poisons)

Meh, no real opinion on vespids, never used 'em

focusefire wrote:
Pirahnas- Buyable Shield Generator option that makes them no longer open topped. Drones on Squadron become troops when seperated from Pirahna. Only one Pirahna may replace its gun drones with flamer drones(This would make them about perfect, actually ).
Either give them multi-meltas, the scout rule, or the deepstrike rule. SMs get all of these with better weaponry for less than the current Pirahna.Yes front armour 11 open-topped vs front armor 10 closed topped. Thats why I said either.(Thats probably to much but I'd pay for one of those abilities)

YESSIR! Thank you. Pirahnas are WAY too much, again what i said about the SM fetish.

focusedfire wrote:
Devil Fish-Bust cannon becomes Long-barrled Burst Cannon. Fix KP issue on drones by making them a part of the squad being transported. They embark and disembark at same time as unit Devilfish was bought with.

perfect as-is

focusedfire wrote:
Broadsides-Make them relentless without having to buy upgrade that takes up hard point(I'll happily pay for the Stablizers if already included In profile).

*OR*, Make them buyable, but not take up a Hardpoint.

focusedfire wrote:
Hammerheads-Make the Ion Cannon Heavy 2 blast for 30pts. Increase Disruption pods to 15-20pts. Decoy launchers good against all immobilized results. Fix inconsistent secondary weapon system pricing. Flamer or flamer drone options in secondary weapons. RailGuns, Fine just the way they are.

Leave my D-pods alone man! and decoy launchers are to be used in conjunction with D-pods so it has the same affect. And i know, right? Gun drones are more than B/C??? and the same as SMS?!?!?

focusedfire wrote:
Sniper Drones-Move to fast attack? Put six drones with 2 controllers in a squad and make the controllers Stealsuits so the unit is jet packing(Or is that level of cheese reserved only for Eldar and SMs)

I wouldn't go so far as stealthsuits, but equip them with mini packs so they are jet-packing.

focusedfire wrote:
Let me know if you like or not and what points these changes would be worth to you.

your head is like a box-o-goodies, i like them for the most part

So to recap, these are their roles, and i feel RAI should reflect this:

O'Shovah
Idealistic, rash, radical, but heart in the right place. turned away from what he saw as an inflexible band of "holier-than-thou" old dudes

Aun'shi
NOT DEAD.... it was a typo...., still alive. Sees what O'shovah is saying, but also sees the wisdom of the Tau'va, wishes to reunite Farsight with the empire, an knows it MUST be peaceably.

O'Shaserra
Idealistic, sides with authority, radical, wants to do good. Yin to Farsight's Yang

Space-pope
Even more idealistic and indeed idealized than Shadowsun. ¿power hungry?

Regular Aun
Ethereals are the leading-class, and when they do oversee a battle, it must be important, thus they should not be common-place, (at VERY most 2 to a non- apoc list). They should do a little more *inspiring*

Crisis Suits
elite suits, they are the bamfs, maybe Monats can act as Indep characters ¿?

Fire Warriors
The Embodiement of the Tau'va. Every-one has thier place in the machine, even if they seem insignificant, with the absence of even 1 gear, the machine does not run. Thus the Fire Warriors know that they are invaluable to the greater good, and would not carry heavy weapons. Though i dont see the problem with BC drones/Flamer drones or even Plasma drones (max 2 per squad)

Kroot
Native American-esque, In harmony with the land, vicious attacks, they are the hidden enemy, the wraiths, they are the front line ahead of even the Front Line. They ambush thier prey from the trees without notice.

Gun-drone squad
For sending into situations to risky for sending flesh-and-blood troops, they are just machines. Fearless, (don't remember the last time my ipod got scared)
And as part of other units, they should not count as kill-points, nor should they effect morale. Im not gonna run away just because my toaster got blow'd up

Pathfinders
These are the forward scouts, the, well, the pathfinders. They charge ahead and are trained in field-craft (but not as much as kroot). Any turn in which you move these you might as well run, since their star role involves heavy weapons.

Piranha
Lightning strike. Even more so than the crisis Suits. "Hey, arent they on the other side of the map? *BANG* nope, guess not, Bluurrghhaahh...."

Vespid
Meh, don't really know them, sry

Broadside Suits
These are youre heavy firing line. 3x railguns with rerolls. "im tha jugganaught b**ch!" They sit there, Tank shock? they calmly turn to face, sight in, and fire. 3 little holes apear in the tank, it keeps coming. Closer. Closer. Then BOOOOOM. It explodes violently, from that first volley. Sending shrapnel pinging off thier armour. One of the Shield drones gets hit by a Hatch/door. No worries, you got more. (yeah, i like broadsides)

Sniper Drones
Either FA, or Elites, these guys operate on the DL. With spotters calling the targets and them quietly making thier heads pop. All Rail-rifles should have sniper USP

Hammerhead
Theres an enemy tank mowing down both infantry and suits with abandon. Nothing we can do can stop it. Munitions and plasma discharges diffusing harmlessly across its armour. Suddenly a hammerhead jumps from around a corner, The Railgun making a perfect line with the Enemy turret for a split second. Then a flash. The after-image of a line piercing the terrible machine. No sound. Not yet. Then, BOOOOM the clap of the sonic boom happening at the same time as the explosion. All thats left is a crater.

Sky-ray
Basically a mobile missile platform. the underestimated killer.