Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Thank you Maj Tom for accepting the invite to come over and look at the ideas floating around. Your input will be a nice additional sounding board. The early stuff was just top of the head brainstorming coming from the position of how to accomplish the most in a limited number of broad changes.

You will find that later in the thread I modified my overall stance as I saw what was starting to come out about the IG. I realised that the Tau are going to need and probably get an extensive rework and that I was going to need to refine my ideas. There are still some things that I am flip-flopping on because I see the Tau going in a certain direction and there are several ways to accomplish these ends but for the most part I'm really refining it down. I think when I'm done that it will be a matter of points tweeking and it will be a much more fun and diverse way to play the Tau in 5th ed.


Now to your replies on the early stuff:

1) I've changed a few things since p 5 on the special characters. I didn't really figure out what to do with them until I started writing. I think that I've got it in hand now. I think that I've acutally found a use for the Etherals. It's in the special army rules on this page.

2) I like your defining concepts about the special characters. I will say though that I'm probably going too shock you with the goodness that Farsight is gonna get. Go ahead, ask me.

3)Even though you like both the Ion Cannon rending and the command node I've changed them both to make them more Tau-like instead of Imperium copies. I, also, made them more balanced.

4)I've ditched the ethereal/warlock upgrade idea. You're dead on. I will take this moment to say that the ethereals will play a much more interesting and vital role in this fan-dex. They will be the glue that holds the multi-cultural collage together.

5)Again on the next two you were dead on. I changed my position later. I'm now to just having 1 stealth squad with the sniperdrones in fast attack or xv-88s with them as a heavy choice. But definitely no rail rifles on the suits themselves.

6)I've further refined the drone ideas. Hope you enjoy them. May post some of the stuff soon.

7)Nice to see we are of the same mind on the carbines. Later in the thread you'll see some different ideas but now that I'm writing balance is suggesting that I back away from some of the later over-powered weapon ideas. When you get to them don't worry.

8)Drones as troops is a definite in this fan-dex. I'm trying for some simplification in their situation.

9)MarkerLights have turned out somewhat different than anything I Mentioned in thread. Its the same yet different kinda thing. Don't worry, I now see why the army was written the way it was for 4th ed. Markers very much have a redefining effect on the army.

10)Seekers are somewhere in between my original idea and what they are currently in the dex.

11)I like your take on the kroot but I'm not quite going that far with their armour. Instead I'll be bringing in some of the Kroot Merc list.

12)This'll change your mind on the Vespids. Squad size 5 stingwings and 1 Strain Leader. I'm putting the BLAST into nuetron blaster.Also, Stingwings use a paralytic sting in the first round of combat. They always wound on a 4+. Strain Lead wounds on a 2+.( Rolls to wound of a 6 ignores armor saves? Your take on this last appreciated)

13)Glad you like the Pirahnas and D-fish ideas. They have stayed pretty much the same.

14)Broadsides I'm still tweeking. They are getting the relentless rule. Just not sure if it will be leader based or just an integrated thing.

15)When you get to see the New hammerhead rules and options I hope you will be pleased. I can tell you that the HH Railgun is getting 2 more types of rounds and a viable and sick secondary weapons system. It comes from merging the Smart miss system and miss pods. LOS shot is still Range 36"Str 7 ap 4 assault 2. The alternate fire mode is no los needed and now has range 24" str 4 ap 5 assault 2 blast,(Maybe ignores cover?, What do you think?). As of right now these shots are twin linked on the Tank and broadsides but could just become twin systems firing double the number of shots.



As to your philosophical overview. I like it and willbe using some of it to help me on some of the sticking points where I may feel that I going either too far or not far enough.

Again, Thanks and please join in with your 5th ed wishes.

Krellnus wrote:At my flgs I got a sort of a sneak at part of the new guard codex it is not pretty.
Hellguns are now AP:3
So i'll put it like this. 10 stormtroopers ds infront of 10 tac marines and rapid fire, so thats 20 AP:3 shots, but if they have a colonel nearby/in the squad he can give a special order that doubles the amount of shots fired.

Also, the Valkyrie is 100pts without weapons and is a fast skimmer.

@Che-Vito Well gee I am freaking sorry that I am trying to give focused and nova an idea of what everyone else is getting ok.

Krellnus wrote:

Krellnus wrote:At my flgs I got a sort of a sneak at part of the new guard codex it is not pretty.
Hellguns are now AP:3
So i'll put it like this. 10 stormtroopers ds infront of 10 tac marines and rapid fire, so thats 20 AP:3 shots, but if they have a colonel nearby/in the squad he can give a special order that doubles the amount of shots fired.

Also, the Valkyrie is 100pts without weapons and is a fast skimmer.

@Che-Vito Well gee I am freaking sorry that I am trying to give focused and nova an idea of what everyone else is getting ok.

I think we all just missed your intention (aka wasn't clear enough for me).

Points are something Tau need to figure out. Are we going to be an elietist army (ala expensive troops w/good stats and guns, small model count), middle of the road (good guns, decent stats, medium model count), or hord (aka xenos guard). I hope we stay in the middle category, myself. I don't want xenos guard and I dont think tau will ever be a Meq. However I think we all agree a generic points decrease on some things will come while others (or Dpods) will probably double in points.

@Krellnus-Thanks for the heads up about the IG and Storms. I already knew about the changes but your point hasn't been missed.

I've said that to look at just one new codex and planning the next based off of what they got is wrong but looking at a trend within the newer codices and then using the most relevant ones as a guideline can be very helpful..


Also, minor correction. Valk is 100 pts WITH weapons. they get a basic weapons loadout that is superior to the devifish. Then there is the vulture at 130 pts with 3 tl lascannons, a fast skimmer that has just as much Tank stopping power as a hammerhead at a cheaper price.

For comparison sake-The Hammerhead has 13 front armour, ap 1 weapon, no ability to transport, and costs at least 150 pts with railgun and the cheapest mandatory secondary weapons system.

The Vulture comes with front armour 12, 3 twin-linked lascannons, transport capacity of 12, can deploy troops when moving full speed, that full speed is Fast Skimmer, it can deepstrike or scout,and costs only 130 points going out the door with base weapons load-out.

This when combined with the new space marine land speeder is why my version of the pathfinders now get a SkyRay as a transport and can scout/outflank with it. This is a reaction not to one codex but looking at the trend and trying to update accordingly.

Tau will definitely see some point cost drops in the next codex.

To me, the bigger issue with Tau is:
1. How do markerlights work? The same or differently? Will they stay Heavy 1 (which right now, makes Pathfinders a static weapon unit that doesn't fit their fluff).
2. Will Tau keep some of their special wargear - in particular Target Locks for infantry, which lets them target multiple units - a big advantage for them.
3. What is the role of the Firewarrior? Right now, with the S5 AP5 shots that abound in the list due to Burst Cannons, there are other units that can fit the anti-infantry role as well or better than Firewarriors. So, what part do they play (other than hiding in a transport)? Right now, they're only good at anti-infantry, and in 40k, that's a bit of a liability, compared to other armies that can also fit some anti-tank or anti-heavy infantry into their troop selections. Frankly, I think FWs should be even cheaper due to the limited wargear they can take (as in, none).
4. Improve survivability, especially of the Firewarriors. They need a Leadership boost, either +1 Ld or a re-roll.

Did we ever talk about Vespids at all? I can't remember and don't feel like slogging through a good long thread for them.

Anyway, we all know vespids need a boost.

I was thinking that they should be able to deep strike, and their guns have an AP 3 flamer (perhaps just the strain leader?) and the other guns rend or something to give them a boost. I also know then need to be tougher but am not sure how, they are already T4 and I can't see them becoming T5, they have fleet so perhaps hit and run would help them? Perhaps armour 4?

I've got the fire warriors pretty much down now. It was a rank advance/wargear problem that I've finally solved. This when combined with the new markers rules makes them pretty good.

They aren't dropping in price by much but rather are being made better through an armywide synergy that is coming about from straightening out quirky rules and Fluff tweeks to support the changes(Sorry, Maj Tom. It was necessary because of the second codex fluff bungling that GW did.).

Casper, check item 12 on my reply to Maj Tom. top of this page.

Tell me if you like this change to the Vespids or not.

Looks fine to me. I'm still worried about thier survivability but by increasing their output that should help. Also gives tau a small blast maker which is something we lack. Actually now that I think about it, aren't we the only army that doesn't get one?

I've been reworking things since yesterday morning a fair bit; realised I needed to smooth the markerilght and loadout systems a bit: Battlesuits in particular were getting a little too imperium-like in the redundancy and number of available systems, most especially commanders. general work has been done for several days now but not having anywhere to put it has given me a chance to shine things up nicely, a little change here and there every day.

A few of the more or less set changes in my own version of the 'dex since Focusedfire was generous with his:

0) The markerlight system: Still getting polished a little, but effectively now functions as a combo system. Overall like my suggestion a few pages back.

1) Commander comes in three flavors:
-XV3 (the 22 with variable hardpoints) which has the stealth generator but slightly more limited choice of weaponry
-XV68 (Forgeworld 88): A Relentless (it comes with free A.S.S.) command broadside with full access to the Broadside weapon list
-XV8 we all know and love; the cheaper of the three, but capable of heavier weapons than the XV3

2) Ethereals got a price hike, but their reduced (more like eliminated) penalty, the addition of the fluff-described battle-rage instead of fall-back, and ability to count as scoring with a large enough retinue will make them attractive. Oh, and they also give a slight boost to kroot and vespid.

3) Battlesuit bodyguards use the base suit of their commander (25/88/crisis), only 'problem' being that the heavier commander stealth takes away their stealth rule (but compensates with big guns)

4) Special issue systems are something I'm reworking at this moment... I keep doing wiping the slate with it, but its gotten better.

5) Crisis have BS4, but paid for it. Most weapons however are a little cheaper.

6) Same with stealth suits, who gained the Stealth rule, and the burst cannon's range was upped anyways.

7) 3-drone sniper teams (spotters went wayside) can be purchased; one per stealth team, as a seperate detatchment. For great justice.

8) Pathfinders are elites and 15pt a model. Yeah, I know, that hurts, but given the new markerlight system, had to. Carbines and markerlights were both upgraded so they're still damn cheap.

9) Warriors now 9 points apiece, and carbine upgrade for them is +1/model. Now composed of mixed Gue-la and Shas'La, they can be bonded and led by a Shas'Ui, or a Sergeant with Pistol, CCW and photon grenades. Rapidfire range and pistol range are 15" for pulse now.

10) Gun Drones are 14 points each. And scoring. And may always regroup (though they break easy). Did I mention carbines had been upgraded? Squad now 4-10 strong.

11) Devilfish may now exchange 4 of their 12 carrying capacity for a "Field Support System": either a Heavy missile pod or a First-Generation Skyray system. Base cost 50 points, though loaded out it'll get expensive.

12) Kroot: Stealth and Move Through Cover USR. Shaper nowhere near as expensive (and included in the unit cost). Hounds 5pt each, krootox 30pt each, gets its second shot at 24"

13) Tetra/Piranha form a single unified squadron (or you can seperate them. I mean, its a vehicle squadron. pick whatever) in Fast Attack. A little cheaper, but the whole squadron, given its less resilient than most actual jetbike squads... Counts as a SINGLE KP. Should make for vicious tank-hunters, though I still don't actually like them myself (but never really did though the tetra's nice). But hey, its not for me.

14) Remora mount a pair of ion cluster cannons (think heavy 1 Blast S4 AP3) and have a jetpack-style move.

15) Vespid I didn't modify nearly as much: Notable though is that their 5+Sv now explicitly allows rolls against AP5, the claws are rending, and the neutron blaster's gained 3 inches of range. They're also a little cheaper. just a bit.

16) Broadsides start slow&purposeful (A.S.S. replaces slow&purposeful with relentless; I was careful to make sure to specify that part or else they'd still be slow!), and at their cheapest form a significantly nastier firestorm suit. The 'Vre has BS4. Railguns got heavy 2'd.

17) Sniper drones are being reworked into 'support drones', with 2 (maybe a third) system packages: whole squadron must be identical though.

18) Hammerhead Ion Cannon is now variable fire: S6 AP3 Heavy 4, S8 AP 3 Heavy 3, S8 AP2 EMP (but can't penetrate, only glance)

19) The Hammerhead Railcannon now has 'blowthrough': on wound, d6: 4+ = additional wound (must be same model unless its a single wound model; so technically it MAY create awesomely fun situations like busting through a termie's chest harmlessly, taking off the head of his buddy behind him). Similarly, on a glance or pen: d6: 4+ = extra glance (just once in both cases, not "keep rolling")

20) EMP are glance only now but way more prolific. Its not just grenades anymore.

21) Hammerhead primary system: Gravitic Launcher. Aka 'Skyray mkII'. 8 ammo, can fire 2/round either Direct or using Swarm System. Unlimited range: it fires seekers! However it can only fire 2 missiles per round.

22) swarm system is part of the markerlight network. Extra launches per spent counter is all. Not all vehicles have it.
23) Seekers come in three fruit flavors. Standard (now with small blast; doesn't scatter), Haywire (2 emp rolls), and cluster (submunition using 2 flamer templates instead of large blast)

24) Ooooh, Barracuda

As with all things, I think the best thing to get is perspective. What I mean is we need to step back, and think about what it means to be Tau. Go from the original ideals they seem to be based on. The novel Fire Warrior, by Simon Spurrier, is, I feel, an excellent insight into Tau philosophy and nature, and, indeed, Human philosophy and nature. Another thing to think about is logistics. The Tau are very efficient, are not at all vainglorious, nor are they particularly proud as individuals. They place heavy reliance on technology, and have advanced technology, which they combine with self-less, but rational mind you, devotion to the Greater Good. This effects in surgical accuracy in everything from conducting a war to eating soup( ). They take no risks where there is nothing to be gained, and even then, they make sure it is worth it. Thus they would not have Juggernaught-ical units, but instead the entire army would be wraith-like. Appearing one place, firing, then dissolving in the wake of a counter-strike. Their poor leadership, I think, is based on their willingness not only to die for the Greater Good, but also to live for it. In essence, retreating today so they can regroup and do a better job of defending the Empire, having learned a new lesson.

Having said this, I will be posting a Fan-dex A La M. Tom

Where exactly can I get this fan-codex?

Riiiight here! Stay tuned for more.

(its not actually up yet, but will be on this thread.)

Vespids need work, but making their weapon a template is not the way to accomplish this. Give them +4 armor, give their leader a power weapon, and give them frag grenades. This will make them a very viable counter assault unit, which is something Tau could use very badly.

As far as the rest of the Tau list, the only significant change I can see would be a 10 point reduction in the Devilfish, and a 2 point reduction per Firewarrior.

EDIT: I just want to point out that Tau are still a very viable army, they just changed significantly with the new edition. They went from a Point Denial army to more of a Mech styled army.

Liquidwulfe wrote:Vespids need work, but making their weapon a template is not the way to accomplish this. Give them +4 armor, give their leader a power weapon, and give them frag grenades. This will make them a very viable counter assault unit, which is something Tau could use very badly.

They would still suck as an HTH unit Low WS, S, #A all hurt them powerweapon on the leader or not. Also its pretty much a universal idea that powerweapons should not be too easily present in the Tau list. Powerweapons are akin to the cutting edge of HTH technology. Not something the Tau spend time focusing on. The flamer template (maybe one in 4 models upgraded) allows them to be viable against all comers be it MEQ to horde. You want to make a unit attractive, you want to sell models? Make it usefull in any list, and give it just enough of a powerboost where people start considering taking two units of them.

As far as the rest of the Tau list, the only significant change I can see would be a 10 point reduction in the Devilfish, and a 2 point reduction per Firewarrior.

With the nerfing of the skimmer rules all our vehicles are moderate to grossly over priced. Especially when you compare somewhat equal vehicles in other codexs.

EDIT: I just want to point out that Tau are still a very viable army, they just changed significantly with the new edition. They went from a Point Denial army to more of a Mech styled army.

Which is why they need a massive overhaul. They went from a 5-7 (Mech, Hybrid Mech, Gunline, VP Denial, Farsight) different builds to two (Mech and Farsight).

OK, getting really frustrated with Dakka eating my long posts when alomost done.

Was responding to Novas Sneak peek with one of my own. After looking at Nova's it is clear that we are beging to really diverge on how are Fan-dex's are being made. I'm going to now illustrate these difference but only after this qualifier.

Once I began to write this it quickly became apparent that some of my firmly held positions earlier in the thread were now, at best, in question. Things like BS4 or T 4 Fire warriors quickly went to the wayside. With the idea of ditching twin-linking for just twin guns becoming an ever increasly overpowered question mark. I found that with New Army special rules, reworking the Markerlights, smoothing out the Rank advancement curve, and a little unit tweeking or reshuffling that the Tau are becoming a powerhouse that I'm really having to work to keep from becoming too strong.

As I get ever closer to completion I'm growing more excited that this would be a fun flexible army to play that still fits the fluff and with just a bit of points tweeking will be fairly balanced.



Now on to the Fan-dex sneek peek so you can compare with Nova's:

First, The army special rules you seemed to like. Most of you liked the Guerrilla Tactics(I know, needs a better name)Rule. You also didn't seem to mind my giving the Ethereals a purpose by requiring them as one of the HQs in games where alien auxilla would be used. I think most also liked the Tau Targeter/Optics rule that allows any unit equipped with Tau Targeterd/optics(I'm having trouble deciding which name is more fitting) to make use of the benefits/bonuses from markerlight hits/counters.

Second, Some of you had problems with the Gue 'Vesa alliance. The main sticking point seemed to be the LRBT. Well' I listened, Thought it over and came to feel that you guys were right....... about the LRBTs. So consider them now gone and instead the Gue'Vesa get the Valkeries/Vendettas. It seemed more fitting that the Gue'Vesa would adapt there way of warfare to better match the Tau's.

Third, The sneek peeks. What I'm going to give you in the immediately following post are some of the defining points of my Fan-dex. These will be for you to look over and question/comment on. If it gets to be too much I'll ask for people to PM me their questions or arguments in an effort to keep from derailing the thread.

this will take a bit...............

Ok, the high points

1)Markerlights are now all networked, though they will be still called markerlights for simplicity's sake.

Markerlights will benefit any unit that has Tau Optics/Targeters. The markerlight is an infantry portable device that projects a simple beam upon an enemy target/unit. This beam is used to guide and improve the accuracy of Tau Optics/Targeter equipped models when attempting to shoot or otherwise affect the marked unit. The markerlight is fired by the model as if it is a ranged weapon with the following profile: Range 24" Str n/a AP n/a Type assault 1*
*Note- No saves may be made against markerlight hits for the fact that there are no wounds caused.
After firing you place counters for each markerlight hit and also take note of the total number of hits. This is because some markerlight bonuses are cumulative depending upon how many markerlight hits scored upon the targeted unit. These cumulative bonuses may be only used against the unit that these hits were scored upon. Some of the counters can be used to give an army wide bonus while other will be weapon or target specific. The differences will be stated below:


A)Spend one counter and any Tau Targeter equipped unit firing at the marked unit gains +1 BS. The player may only spend one such counter a turn on the marked unit and is thus limited to a maximun bonus of +1. This may be combined with the cover reduction bonus given in line B)

B)Spend one counter and the marked units cover is reduced by -1 for each markerlight hit scored in that shooting phase. The effect lasts until the end of the owning Tau players shooting phase and benefits any model equipped to make use of the markerlight hits. Only one cover reduction counter may be used upon a marked unit in a single turn of shooting.

C)One counter maybe used to fire a seeker missle at BS 5. This shot may benefit from the cover reduction bonus given in line B)

D)One counter may be used to reduce the drift of Blast and Large Blast weapons by -1 for every markerlight hit scored upon the targeted unit. The owning Tau player may expend more than one of the drift reduction counters a turn for a cumulative effect. This shot may benefit from the cover reduction bonus stated in line B)

E)The Tau player may expend one counter to lower the Leadership of the marked squad by -1 for every markerlight hit scored upon that unit in the Tau players shooting phase. The Tau player may expend more than one of the leadership counters for a cumulative effect.


Note: Except when being combined with cover reduction as indicated in their entries, marker counters do not combine different effects. This means that the player may not use line A) to increase the bonuses of line C) or D).



Yes marker lights are going to become a little more expensive.


2)Commanders are similar to Novas but will have different stats. Shas'els are the generic commanders now and Shas'Os are the big Heros(Shadowsun/Farsight/Focusedfire). Go ahead, cry foul, you put this much effort into something I think an honourable mention isn't too much to ask . Doing this allowed for me to rework the skills/rank track to make more sense and to match the new improved profiles. I'll clarify in the next entry.

3)Tau Battlesuits through steadily improved technology now offers better armour protection that absorbs impacts to the point of making a warrior tougher to wound or kill. The suits, also, now include several items that used to be seperate support systems but are now stangerd issue and fully integrated into the Tau Empires Military Forces. These items are:

A)Targeting arrays are now standard integrated components in battlesuits. This is why an infantry shas'ui is BS3 and a battlesuit shas'ui is now BS4.

B)All Battlesuit Shas'ui are now required to take HW drone contoller implants so they might better meet the mission needs more quickly as they arise.

C)XV-88 Broadsides are now all equipped with Advanced Stabilization Systems.

The battlesuit profiles I will post later. My wife needs us time. Will tell you to start with T4 stealthsuits and goes to T4(5) Crisis and broadsides.

So next up after battlesuit reference sheet will be drones.

Later.

I had two ideas as I scanned this thread. First, I appologise if someone has suggested something similar. It's a long thread and after a while I did start scanning. Secondly...I have no idea how much use these ideas are, but what the hell, right?

First of all I was wondering if a way to have Tau locked in combat to have a way of breaking off without getting there asses kicked might not be a good idea. Hit and Run might be good but I was thinking, rather than striking back (a usually useless trick) the Tau could do it at there initative. Dedicated assault units would still get there pound of flesh but Tau could escape before power fist units killed off what was left. Maybe a leadership test would be required, or the enemy can try a limited sweeping advance or something. It seems logical that Tau, prefering not to fight close combat, would learn to break off from a combat and move into a firing position.

Second, I'm thinking that as an upgrade to Fire Warrior squads...a Ethreal Apprentice. To govern a cast they must first understand it...etc, etc. So they spend some time with the Fire Warriors. The Fire Warriors, determined not to let the Ethereal in there charge die, get + 1 to there ballistic skill and stubborn. Because they can only inspire, and don't have an Inspiring Presence, the benefits would only be for that squad.

Thoughts?

Jon Garrett wrote:
First of all I was wondering if a way to have Tau locked in combat to have a way of breaking off without getting there asses kicked might not be a good idea. Hit and Run might be good but I was thinking, rather than striking back (a usually useless trick) the Tau could do it at there initative. Dedicated assault units would still get there pound of flesh but Tau could escape before power fist units killed off what was left. Maybe a leadership test would be required, or the enemy can try a limited sweeping advance or something. It seems logical that Tau, prefering not to fight close combat, would learn to break off from a combat and move into a firing position.

Second, I'm thinking that as an upgrade to Fire Warrior squads...a Ethreal Apprentice. To govern a cast they must first understand it...etc, etc. So they spend some time with the Fire Warriors. The Fire Warriors, determined not to let the Ethereal in there charge die, get + 1 to there ballistic skill and stubborn. Because they can only inspire, and don't have an Inspiring Presence, the benefits would only be for that squad.

Well tau lack good Initative, so Hit and Run wont work well for them, perhaps on suits but regular FW would need something different, perhaps a change to photon grenades (as well is denying that mob of 20 oks 1 attack really going to matter?).

Ethreal Apprentice seems like a warlock to me...but with a few differences. I would flesh this out abit more. Does the Ethreal get any wargear options if so what?

Always glad to see some fresh ideas.

Jayden63 wrote:

Liquidwulfe wrote:Vespids need work, but making their weapon a template is not the way to accomplish this. Give them +4 armor, give their leader a power weapon, and give them frag grenades. This will make them a very viable counter assault unit, which is something Tau could use very badly.

They would still suck as an HTH unit Low WS, S, #A all hurt them powerweapon on the leader or not. Also its pretty much a universal idea that powerweapons should not be too easily present in the Tau list. Powerweapons are akin to the cutting edge of HTH technology. Not something the Tau spend time focusing on. The flamer template (maybe one in 4 models upgraded) allows them to be viable against all comers be it MEQ to horde. You want to make a unit attractive, you want to sell models? Make it usefull in any list, and give it just enough of a powerboost where people start considering taking two units of them.

As far as the rest of the Tau list, the only significant change I can see would be a 10 point reduction in the Devilfish, and a 2 point reduction per Firewarrior.

With the nerfing of the skimmer rules all our vehicles are moderate to grossly over priced. Especially when you compare somewhat equal vehicles in other codexs.

EDIT: I just want to point out that Tau are still a very viable army, they just changed significantly with the new edition. They went from a Point Denial army to more of a Mech styled army.

Which is why they need a massive overhaul. They went from a 5-7 (Mech, Hybrid Mech, Gunline, VP Denial, Farsight) different builds to two (Mech and Farsight).

Basically hit the nail on the head. I would add the following though.

Our best vehicle upgrade will be going up in price so we will need more than a 10 point drop to the Fish, perhaps not making us pay for the drones or the basic wepon layout would help.

Tau need more builds then the gimped mech and farseight lists. Period, I personally don't like FoF (as its too expensive for me to convert) or Farseight for that matter (same reason), a regualr semi-mech or footslogging tau list needs to be viable again.

Final point, a generic well written rules section (by that I mean easy to understand) would be nice. No more of this you cant use A.S.S. because you bought drones for your sergent...or other mind blowing tau rules (you all know which ones I mean).

Hey Casper, Thanks for the positive feedback on the Vespids.

There is a lot of difference between what I'm writing down now and what I was suggesting earlier in the thread. I'm, now, doing a lot of quick mathhammering to make sure these new ideas don't become overpowered when combined with the markerlights and other wargear.

Doing this while trying to fit with the fluff and my personal take that Tau don't like to use weapons thar cause a lot of collateral damage is challenging. I'm giving the Tau Bast markers only when there is something that mitigates this collateral damage. Things like Nuetron Blasts that only kill living beings, Warheads that use the Fragmentation Grenades bomblets with the integral AI that only detonate when in proximity of the enemy, and area effect EMP blasts that take out enemy vehicles.

I've left the flamer alone because it is needed and has a controllable and limited amount of collateral damage and the Basic Rail gun sub-muntion is the same but the AI is now in the fluff to to make it ignore cover and to fit with this concept that I have.

I'm getting back to the sneek peek now.

PS-I'll try to eliminate those wording issues to the best of my ability.

I just wanted to chime in on your markerlight system: what you describe is more or less what I originally wanted to go for, but I ran into a problem: "exactly which counters got used for what". I realised that as the turn goes by, especially with multiple units adding multiple markerlights, it was turning into a jumbled memory mess; one very easily additive or subtractive by one player or the other.

This is what caused me to go for the current combo system.

If you've found a way to keep the thing from getting too akward in long turns (imagine apocalypse or even a 3000pt battle for example) without forcing players to develop "their little tricks" (we do have to make sure it doesn't get too abusable/complex) I'd love to hear it; because that would likely make your system the better of the two for purposes of ease of balance and fun factor.

oh; before I forget: my split for markerlight/networked is that the network ones are now stacked with additional processing power, and can be used, instead of firing, to gain a bonus. Thus models with a networked markerlight can get two markerlight effects instead of the one granted by the previous unit to mark that target (this makes target-locks very worth taking). Of course since its not being used to fire you won't grant a bonus to the next guy... still, you can always just fire markerlights again or spend the things on seekers.

Seekers are end of shooting phase. Remove counters (if the launcher's got a swarm system you can place two seekers per counter removed!) and just put a seeker missile down next to the target (under this I'd color'em for the effect, keeps it simple). This is probably gonna be used when you've got a LOT to shoot at and down counters from 4 to 3 since the next group's firing a markerlight at it too.
Seekers hit at the END of the shooting phase, all seekers hit (its still shooting for morale and all, its just the last thing you do before going to assault). This adds a little bad to the seekers; all of a sudden you can't really guarantee it'll finish the job.

But at the same time seekers themselves got boosted a bit, enough that its worth tossing one, maybe two counters at a squad you're not specifically trying to destroy that turn. I figure it makes sense they'd take a few seconds to get there.

You can instead spend TWO counters for an immediate hit, which is good if you're trying to EMP off some void shield. But that's two markerlight hits (though for 2 immediate hits if you've, say, a grav launcher in the army). Gravitic launchers can fire seekers direct, and instant, as a weapon. But they need line of sight, and there's only 8 shots on the vehicle.

OK, picking up where I left off.......


4) My Tau reference sheet looks like this:


Stats........WS BS S T W I A LD SV

Shas'El
XV-8 Crisis- 3 5 5 4 3 3 3 10 3+
Shas'Vre
XV-8 Crisis- 3 5 5 4 2 3 2 9 3+
Shas'Ui
XV-8 Crisis- 2 4 5 4 2 3 2 8 3+
Shas'El
Stealthsuits- 3 5 4 3 2 3 3 10 3+
Shas'Vre
Stealthsuits- 3 5 4 3 1 3 2 9 3+
Shas'Ui
Stealthsuits- 2 4 4 3 1 3 2 8 3+
Shas'El
Broadsides- 3 5 5 4(5) 3 3 3 10 2+
Shas'Vre
Broadsides- 3 5 5 4(5) 2 3 2 9 2+
Sha'Ui
Broadsides- 2 4 5 4(5) 2 3 2 8 2+
Shas'Ui
Fire Warrior- 2 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 4+
Shas'La
Fire Warrior- 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 7 4+


Ethereal(HQ)- 4 4 3 3 2 3 3 10 4+

Vespid
Dominatrix- 4 4 3 5 2 5 2 10 4+

Strain Leader- 3 3 3 5 2 5 1 9 4+

Stingwings- 3 3 3 4 2 5 1 6 4+

Kroot
Master Shaper- 5 4 4 3 3 4 2 * 5+

Kroot Shaper- 5 3 4 3 2 3 2 * 6+

Kroot Kindred- 4 3 4 3 1 3 1 * 6+

Kroot Hounds- 4 - 4 3 1 5 2 * 6+

Kroot Ox's- 4 - 6 4 3 3 3 * 5+

Great Gnarlok- 4 - 10 6 4 3 3 * 5+

*Back to buying kroot mercenary loyalty


5)Drones and their controllers. In order to buy or use drones a model must be equipped with a drone controller. A Model with a drone controller may buy only 2 drones but can control up to 4 drones in certain circumstances. Drones are now scoring units when independant and the same as their owning model when under the command of a drone controller.

Will finish on this later. Duties call IRL.


Edited to correct toughness

@Nova- I limited it with the only one counter per turn per marked unit clause in the needed entries.

I felt this was simpler. I'm still tweeking the seekers. will let you know when I'm comfortable with them.

Later

Well, I've played two games with 5E Tau now... one draw and one win not too bad, right?

Especially with strategies like ninja tau (although I have a gunline army) it seems like they're pretty good to me!

I'll update more after I've played more, obviously but from a rookie standpoint, they don't seem bad, just fragile and needing a pretty specific strategy to win.

I wouldn't want the pendulum to swing too far the other way and have them become overpowered! It's nice to have the challenge... even if it means I have to run my guys away from the enemy like little girlie men sometimes...

5th edition hit many armies the same way: if you played against one who still lacks its 5th edition codex, its natural you'd be no worse off.

Fight against the new Imperial Guard however, and you realise they're averaging two more LRBTs than they used to. With battlecannons that can fire on the move. Or some manticores. And the HWS got a little cheaper, especially the mortars. most seem to have a good 200 some points they didn't use to have just by converting army costs to the new copy stores like to brag around.

In any case the entire codex needed a rewrite, if nothing else because of serious editing holes and grammatical confusion... But overall I'm working my version to account for 5th edition, NOT 4th (5th ed codices aren't really balanced to 4th, what with it being new rules and all).

So don't take our ideas as being "for use against dark eldar", but rather "for use against the other 5th eds that come out".

note: I'm not saying 'its impossible'. I'm just saying codex creep is there, and we're working so as to take it into account.

Here is my idea for psychic support for the Tau and reasoning behind it.

(note this assumes commanders are still +1 so the Naascar cannot lead an army by his lonesome.)

HQ -
Naascar psychic (1) 80 Pts.
WS 3 BS 3 S3 T4 W3 I4 A1 LD10 SV 4+/5+(I)

Weapons:
Pulse pistol (S5 AP5 12" range pistol)
CCW

Psychic Powers:
Naascar have access to all of the following psychic powers.

Hunting grounds - Fluff: The Naascar summons dozens of the small yet horrible creatures enhabiting the warp to materialize onto the battlefield and attack his enemies.
Effect: Cast at the beginning of your opponents turn. Any enemy unit that makes any form of movement within 18" of the Naascar model is treated as if moving through dangerous terrain.

Replay - Fluff: The Naascar uses the endless swirling of time present into the warp to return one model to a previous moment in time. Effect: During the Tau players shooting phase, nominate one friendly model within LOS of the Naascar that has already fired this phase. That model may shoot again, but may not designate a new target from the one they previously fired at.

Distortions of the Warp - Fluff: The Naascar calls forth images of the past, present, and future and displays them on the battlefield leaving echos of the past and future to confuse his enemies. Effect: Cast at the beginning of the enemies shooting phase. Regardless of a models BS skill any Tau unit within 18" of the Naascar can only be hit on a 5+ in this shooting phase.

Control Zone - Fluff: The Naascar takes absolute control over the warp in the area around him. He controls what can and cannot enter the area of effect from the warp. Effect: Cast at the beginning of the Tau players turn. Until the beginning of the Tau players next turn any attempts at using a psychic power within 24" of the Nascaar fail (after testing for POTW) on a 2+. Deamons may only be summoned within this area of effect on a 6+ (deamons failed at being summoned in this way go back into reserves).


My reasoning:
This alien comes from places deep inside the warp, they have left the warp for whatever reason and now some of them have embraced the Tau's sense of greater good. The Tau have realized that they need support of such creatures as they have found that the Warp and those who can control parts of it are having their marry way against them.

Anway, the character points is roughly based off of an Eldar Farseer with fortune and guide. I greatly lowered his WS, BS, and Init. to cull his HTH abilities and allow room for the extra powers.

The powers, the only one I think I really have to defend is Control Zone. Its pretty much just a psychic hood where it assumes he always rolls a 6 during the contest. It sounds strong until you realize, it uses up his one psychic power for his turn, and in fact can be hooded itself. I made it multi usefull to help stop deamon rushes as well. Also please note that it didn't say it was limited to enemy psychers only, so if he wants to cast a power on his opponents turn he too will have to test.

I don't know how I feel about a Tau race that uses the warp... Also they are called Naascar, Nas-car or Nuh-scar?

Not a huge fan of the powers either.

I would like to see the Barghesi, I see em as an Elite or Heavy support in groups of 3-6 with stats close too Terminators but this is wishful thinking.

But if anything Tau will get Demiurg the race that gave the Tau Ion Cannon technology. Demiurg are an alien race of squat semi-humanoids, who share many traits with the typical fantasy dwarf stereotype: they are avid miners, expert traders, and, in some ways, further technologically advanced than humans. They also bear a particular hatred for goblinoids (Orks).

Cause people are screaming over the squats and this race is already with the Tau as of Battlefleet Gothic.

focusedfire wrote:
5)Drones and their controllers. In order to buy or use drones a model must be equipped with a drone controller. A Model with a drone controller may buy only 2 drones but can control up to 4 drones in certain circumstances. Drones are now scoring units when independant and the same as their owning model when under the command of a drone controller.

I would change the wording to:
A Model with a drone controller may buy only 2 drones but can control up to 4 drones in certain circumstances.
change to
A Drone controller allows any model equipped with one to buy 0-2 Shield/Gun/Markerlight/Flamer(?) Drones in any combination. This effect is cumulative.
just a suggestion


And i will not be releasing any planned sneak-peaks, due to the fact that im just not that organized. I Am however likely to interject aspects of it into conversation prior to release. (and in all likelyhood afterwards too )

Thanks for the C&C Maj Tom. I was hurrying and also haven't gotten to the final editing point yet.


OK, Back to where I left off.

5)Drone Controllers- All Shas'ui are required to take Hard-wired Drone controllers in order to progress along the Fire Caste rank track. The drone controller allows any model equipped with one to buy 0-2 drone types as allowed per their unit entry in the army list. The drones must maintain 2" coherency with the other drones under the command of the controller and at least one must be within 2" of the controlling model.

The Drone controller allows a model to take control of up to 2 additional drones in the following circumstances:

A) The Fire Warrior team takes a devilfish when it has already bought 2 drones. The devilfish comes equipped standard with 2 gundrones that are automatically joined to the squad. These additional drones embark and disembark at the same time as the unit. The Fire Warrior Shas'Ui can determine which drones under his control embark and ride in the drone recesses on the devilfish.

(Think about the possibilities of this for a moment.......then let the slow smile start.)

B)If a battlesuit, infantry, or allied model with drones becomes a casualty then one of his teamates can assume control of the orphaned drones if they also posses a controller. This includes the drones of Independent characters.

C)An Independent Character may commandeer additional drones when leaving a unit he has previously joined. The Independent character is still limited to a maximum of 4 drones when leaving the squad and he has to take any surviving drones that he bought originally.


6)Drones- Drones have a networkable AI that allows them to link-up and form independent squads capable of prolonged operation with any orders from a controller. The AI is so advanced that the Tau veiw the drones as living members within their Empire.

The networked AI is capable of recieving and executing orders on the battlefield without any need for a controlling model. Because of this, the independent gundrone squads have now become troops in the Tau armies and count as scoring units.

Some Drones are allowed to be loaded into the vehicle front weapon recesses. These drones may fire as part of the vehicle using their own BS but, this makes them subject to weapon destroyed results.

Drone special rules:
Programming: Drones are programmed to accomplish their mission and as machines are incapable of fear. To represent this independent drone squads have the universal rule for stubborn. The drones would be fearless but that exceptionally violent weapons bursts, blast, barrages, or ordinance can overload their systems and force a fast reboot which in effect pins them. Any ranged weapon with pinning listed in its profile or as part of its base rule can force pinning checks upon a drone squadron.

Machines: The drones Machine intelligence is unaffected by Psychic based attacks that would affect their leadership or force a pinning check.()

Jump infantry(Jet-pack)

Drones under the command of a model with a drone controller become the same unit type and leadership as the controlling model. This is represented by the drones loosing their special rules but automatically gaining all of the secial rules of the squad they are bought for.

Example:Gun Drones would lose stubborn and machines when joining a stealth unit but gain the stealth and infiltrate ability.

These mixed units follow the normal wound allocation rules.


7)Drone Types-The following are the general profiles and special rules for the various types of drones.


A)Shield Drones: WS2 BS- S3 T 4 W1 I4 A1 Ld* Sv3+

Equipment: Shield Generators, Flechettes
*Same as contolling model

Unit type:Same as controlling model

Special Rules:

Close protection-Shield Drones always have the same Toughness, Leadership, and Save as their controlling model. They also intercede automatically when the controlling model is assaulted. This is represented by the drones being able to switch places with the controlling model if the unit is assaulted.

Flechettes-Any enemy model in base to base contact with the shield drones will trigger the Flechettes. The enemy models are considered automatically hit by a S3 AP- ignores cover weapon, before any HtH attacks are resolved in that assault, Armour and Invulnerable saves are allowed.

Unit Protection-All models, in the same unit, within 2" of the drones recieve a 5+ Inv save. This save is increased by +1 for each additional shield drone in the unit. The max invulnerable save allowed is 3+.


B)Gun Drones- WS2 BS2 S3 T4 W1 I4 A1 LD* Sv 4+

Equipment: Two pulse carbines twin-linked

Unit type: If independent Jump Infantry(Jet-Pack), If under command of a drone controller then same unit type as the controlling models.

Options: Up to Two models may upgrade their weapons to flamers or fusion blasters for 10 points each. No mixing the weapon types. If you upgrade two gundrones then they either take two flamers or two fusion blasters


C) Markers Drones are pretty much the same except that they are now Toughness 4 and follow the new rules for markerlights. They may also be loaded into the drone recesses of a vehicle.

D) Sniper Drones have the following profile: WS2 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I3 A1 Ld X Sv4+ Sniper Drones are extremely limited. Only one Stealthsuit squad can take them in an army.



Gotta go now. After looking at this I think I'm going to revert the battlesuits back to their original toughness stats.


Tell me what you think so far.


Edited for noted corrections on following page.
Ammended drone pinning rule
Ammended the Shield drone Toughness and Sv profiles
Corrected all drones to the new Toughness 4 profile