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I just posted a battle report between a buddy and i. Since he has been using Tau.... he has won 2 and tied one. Look at the battle report and then tell me what you think. They are a tough army.... but have some weaknesses just as any army. Their troop choices are weak in combat I think, but overall they have impressed me and I've been playing Orks for many, many years and was surprised I haven't beat them yet. I even used Nob Bikers. Perhaps i suck, but you would have to play against 2headedlictor, my friend, to see his strategic genius.


Check out this post to see battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236727.page

@Da Big-Its not Tactical genius. It is a bare board.

No cover, bad for Orks but good fot Tau.


Diagonal edge to edge unobstructed veiw, Bad for trukks but good for railguns.


Now don't get us wrong. I'm still winning. I'm also having a lot more fun now that I've switched to Ninja Tau.

Its just that outside of Ninja Tau the Tau army playstyle is very limited and boring.

Combine that with a wargear section with very poor wording and you have my reasons for attempting to write the Fan-dex.

Also it is fun to wish-list sometimes. So read through and just play with the possibilities of some of the ideas.

Da Big Warboss wrote:I just posted a battle report between a buddy and i. Since he has been using Tau.... he has won 2 and tied one. Look at the battle report and then tell me what you think. They are a tough army.... but have some weaknesses just as any army. Their troop choices are weak in combat I think, but overall they have impressed me and I've been playing Orks for many, many years and was surprised I haven't beat them yet. I even used Nob Bikers. Perhaps i suck, but you would have to play against 2headedlictor, my friend, to see his strategic genius.

Check out this post to see battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236727.page

Don't take this the wrong way, but the Orks seriously screwed up on turn 3. Instead of the bikers shooting the firewarriors, they should have multi assaulted the firewarriors in front, the pathfinders to the side, and the crisis suits. (your pics show that they would have had the room) The results would have been terminal for the Tau. All three of units would have either died, or been broken because of the massive LD penalties that they all would have had to take, and possilby massacured in the sweeping advance. The Nobs probably would have been fine and there would have been a lot less guns around for them to get shot up with last turn. Those nobs have 5 attacks on the charge. Thats 25 attacks that all hit on 3s and wound on 2s. Thats roughly 16 hits, 13-14 wounds and about 7 confirmed dead things. If any of the nobs had power claws its even worse. Striking back the Tau would have had 15 attacks, that hit on 4s and wound on 6s. Thats 7 hits, barely 1 wound before the orks make any saves. Tau loose combat. Combat modifier is at least -12 for each of the three squads, if your not rolling snake-eyes they are running. Nobs at base init 3 vs Tau 2 have a 66% of massacring each unit as they run.

My own experiences with Tau in 5th ed have been like that. We get chased off of objectives far too easily, and cover saves really put a dent in what little low AP weapons we do have. Multi assaults destroy us when figuring in our HTH patheticness and crappy LD.

Jayden63 wrote:

Da Big Warboss wrote:I just posted a battle report between a buddy and i. Since he has been using Tau.... he has won 2 and tied one. Look at the battle report and then tell me what you think. They are a tough army.... but have some weaknesses just as any army. Their troop choices are weak in combat I think, but overall they have impressed me and I've been playing Orks for many, many years and was surprised I haven't beat them yet. I even used Nob Bikers. Perhaps i suck, but you would have to play against 2headedlictor, my friend, to see his strategic genius.

Check out this post to see battle report: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236727.page

Don't take this the wrong way, but the Orks seriously screwed up on turn 3. Instead of the bikers shooting the firewarriors, they should have multi assaulted the firewarriors in front, the pathfinders to the side, and the crisis suits. (your pics show that they would have had the room) The results would have been terminal for the Tau. All three of units would have either died, or been broken because of the massive LD penalties that they all would have had to take, and possilby massacured in the sweeping advance. The Nobs probably would have been fine and there would have been a lot less guns around for them to get shot up with last turn. Those nobs have 5 attacks on the charge. Thats 25 attacks that all hit on 3s and wound on 2s. Thats roughly 16 hits, 13-14 wounds and about 7 confirmed dead things. If any of the nobs had power claws its even worse. Striking back the Tau would have had 15 attacks, that hit on 4s and wound on 6s. Thats 7 hits, barely 1 wound before the orks make any saves. Tau loose combat. Combat modifier is at least -12 for each of the three squads, if your not rolling snake-eyes they are running. Nobs at base init 3 vs Tau 2 have a 66% of massacring each unit as they run.

My own experiences with Tau in 5th ed have been like that. We get chased off of objectives far too easily, and cover saves really put a dent in what little low AP weapons we do have. Multi assaults destroy us when figuring in our HTH patheticness and crappy LD.

Your right about the multi-assault. I have not done many multi-assaults and find working them out a lot of trouble.....of course i only had a few warbikes to deal with, but it does seem complicated sometime in larger games. I have always wondered how in the world you work out the Green Tide in some games. Anyhow thanks for the information and your right about the Tau have some serious weaknesses in CC.

@Focusedfire: Seems we went with similar ideas but diverging methods on the drones. Definitely quite different on Devilfish... I'd scream 'abuse' at your drone-recess selection system but then I remember Nob bikers, Master of Ordnance scatter-eliminating mortar ranging shots, and quickly remember that's not a big deal at all.

I've kept drones as semi-intelligent: Viewed and treated as favored/loved pets by their units. They're slightly more expendable because its easier to fix a hole through a frisbee than a hole through a chest. I went the exact opposite way on their morale: They can't be pinned, but have enough self-preservation to bug out for a moment. They may always attempt to regroup though. Sniper drones are programmed to ALWAYS run from combat even if they win (though can't be swept if they didn't lose).

I'd completely forgotten about psychic powers though. If you don't mind, I'll use that idea of yours on the subject. makes sense, I'm just not used to dealing with psykers (even my occasional eldar opponent barely uses them) and never even gave the subject a thought.

Sniper drones in my case are actually more common: 2 squads may be taken per army (they dropped the spotter so 4/squad instead) as a heavy support choice, and one 2-strong detatchment can be taken PER stealth suit choice in an army. They're BS4 now however, and effectively 30 points apiece. I figure the Tau would take to the whole sniping idea VERY well, even if its a little overdone, especially when one considers the nasty angles and positions the floaty buggers could do (and how patient a drone might be compared to, say, a ratling). Sniper drones and pathfinders (still a bad deal mind you) can equip the things; its still not available to suits. I'm considering modifying the pathfinders sniper option for a pulse weapon of some sort instead. Rails were downed to S5 however anyways.

I'd been ripping my hair out trying to find a niche to actually PUT the heavy drones in. No matter what I did, they just were either redundant, not worth taking, or too cheap and potentially overpowered; and most of this just from switching the where and the cost. So I eventually gave up, and made them HQ Battle Drones: T5 multiwound 'detachments' an army can at most take two of. Built to withstand the... rigors... of early battlesuit system testing, they're instead fielded with spare Broadside secondary weapons in the field.

A crisis suit will technically field more firepower, and depending on the incoming fire may be more or less resilient, but I do believe I've made these jetbikes (yup) a pretty good deal.

(So any word on how/where to put this stuff up? I can't really polish it more till I get more input lest I rub a hole through the thing by this point)

*edit: 30 points. 2.6 would be kinda CHEAP now wouldn't it.

Sniper drones were a poor implementation. Imagine making a squad of Marine Scouts or Ratlings a heavy support slot. Then make sure they only have three shots that turn.

*highlights own fan-dex....DELETE* Looks like i wont be needing to make this, WOOT to Focused-fire, iloveitiloveitiloveit!
Some more C&C on the drones tho,

focusedfire wrote:
6)Drones- Drones have a networkable AI that allows them to link-up and form independent squads capable of prolonged operation with any orders from a controller. The AI is so advanced that the Tau veiw the drones as living members within their Empire.

The networked AI is capable of recieving and executing orders on the battlefield without any need for a controlling model. Because of this, the independent gundrone squads have now become troops in the Tau armies and count as scoring units.

Instead of living members, i like nova's idea of Favorite pets, for the same reasons as he. The difference is the Fio caste can mend a nerfed drone back to optimal performance, and drones don't have psycological needs/desires/depth. Thus, those hooved philosoraptors would'nt consider them 'alive'. (IMO!)

focusedfire wrote:
Drone special rules:
Stubborn: Drones follow the universal rule for stubborn. The drones would be fearless but that exceptionally violent weapons bursts, blast, barrages, or ordinance can overload their systems and force a fast reboot which in effect pins them.

focusedfire wrote:
A)Shield Drones: WS2 BS- S3 T * W1 I4 A1 Ld* Sv*

Equipment: Shield Generators, Flechettes
*Same as contolling model

Unit type:Same as controlling model

Special Rules:

Close protection-Shield Drones always have the same Toughness, Leadership, and Save as their controlling model. They also intercede automatically when the controlling model is assaulted. This is represented by the drones being able to switch places with the controlling model if the unit is assaulted.

Flechettes-Any enemy model in base to base contact with the shield drones will trigger the Flechettes. The enemy models are considered automatically hit by a S3 AP- ignores cover weapon, before any HtH attacks are resolved in that assault, Armour and Invulnerable saves are allowed.

Unit Protection-All models, in the same unit, within 2" of the drones recieve a 5+ Inv save. This save is increased by +1 for each additional shield drone in the unit. The max invulnerable save allowed is 3+.

Whoah, dude! Way to nerf the Shield drone! Common! jk

But seriously, marked decrease in performance?? A shield generator is not going to modify itself to be the same resilience as its owner's armour. Its going to stay at the same capacity until damaged. Thus any of the same model of shield generator is going to confer the same save. I understand your want to balance the addition of Flechettes, and i suggest making this optional for extra points. I am very much a fan of your unit protection, however. But IMHO there's room to grow (as with all things!) I Would change it too within 3" radius, 5+, and within 2(or maybe 1) inches, 4+, all cumulative to 3+ (reflecting, I assume, the programmed behavior of tracking projectiles and zooming in to deflect/absorb the hit? Or is it just the fact that the field of protection is a ball?)

Also, maybe consider a momentary drop of shield when flechettes are triggered, allowing the projectiles to pass through into the offending model, reflected by the first melee attack against drone in question during the assault turn in which the flechette-ed being resolved with a non-invulerable save of 5+ (the strength of what they are made out of ?)

Focusedfire wrote:
Options: Up to Two models may upgrade their weapons to flamers or fusion blasters for 10 points each. No mixing the weapon types. If you upgrade two gundrones then they either take two flamers or two fusion blasters

First, maybe consider making the flamer drone a different type entirely. Thus you could make a special rule where they can't be mixed within 1 controller with any other type.

And, honestly, The fusion drone seems kinda cheesy
flamer is perfectly understandable, both player-wise and fluff-wise
Burst-cannon is, kinda cheesey, but its not ridiculous
Plasma would be pretty cheesy,
anything not mentioned or already in effect, is all for the greater ghoudda!

focusedfire wrote:
D)Sniper Drones are very limited. Only one Stealthsuit squad can take them.

WOOT, i was just thinking to myself that he better not make me able to equip sniper drones! I find this to be a very elegant balance between obvious fluffy compatibility, and cheese.

^^^ Yeah, I'm not super impressed with the magic morphing shield drone. In reality, this could happen.

1 - A Shas'ui of a fire warrior squad has two shield drones giving them T3 and a 4+ armor save. On turn 2 the unit is joined by the Commander Shas'o, and sadly the lone firewarrior Shas'ui is killed due to wound allocation on the enemies next phase, so the Shield drones then pass onto the Shas'o and the little buggers rev up their matter converters and reinforce their structure so that now they are T4 and have a 3+ save.

2 - The Shas'o moves to reinforce the position of the Broadsides and ends his movement too close to them an auto joins the unit. The crafty eldar player mindwars the Shas'o to death (thanks no Tau psychic defense what so ever), so the Broadside Shas'ui takes command of the drones and the little blighters rev up the matter converter one more time and encase themselves in sold admantium giving them a 2+ armor save.

3 - Sadly things are not going so well for the broadsides, to stiffen things up a bit, the lone Etherial joins their ranks to make them Fearless. However the broad side is made into scrap as he fails his 2+ save vs an Eldar Missile Launcher. So now our little shield drone is left to join with the Etherial. It gets ready to rev up its matter converter again only to realize its really sick and tired of this crap so it just disolves all of its current modifications and goes back down to T3 and crys as all of its once awesome admantium armor plating becomes the rigidity of wet toilet paper.

Yeah that. I'm just having a little fun here, but the transfer of drones from one unit to another will be a huge headache. Especially if say a Tau unit with two leader types is attacked in HTH by a unit that has different Init values. Its possible the guy controlling the drones could get axed before other attacks are resolved that could have killed the other leader guy.

Liquidwulfe wrote:Sniper drones were a poor implementation. Imagine making a squad of Marine Scouts or Ratlings a heavy support slot. Then make sure they only have three shots that turn.

Yes, it is a bummer that they take up heavy support, but the option exists to take 9 Sniper Drones and 3 Spotters for 1 Heavy Support slot. Still not the best, but at least you can take more than 1.

no, it makes sense. also, with wound allocation, any tau player i know would make the drones die first. and ANyway, so what if you're controller dies? Is the drone gonna hover in place? Do an auto-recall to the mothership? No. Its going to go up to a good hight, and scan for the closest available controller (within range, eg, within the unit)

Drone Categories
Battle Drone: HQ detachment (like techpriests and so on). A bit expensive, but quite tough and fairly well armed with the more conventional basic weapons.

Deflector Drone: Models in a Unit accompanied-by or containing a Deflector Drone may reroll failed saves. Deflector drone MUST be assigned incoming wounds first, starting with the highest strength.
(The drone is affected by its own ability, but it does mean the thing'll blow pretty early anyways. Still, its cheaper than the old codex marker drones... But special issue. one per army, plus the one an ethereal can field)

Gun Drone: Gun Drones provide additional firepower in the form of their twin-linked Pulse Carbines. Common and highly efficient, these AI serve the Greater Good willingly, treated and maintained as one would a loyal pet.
(Vicious. at 12 points for the wargear upgrade or 14 for a squadron member, I didn't up this just for kicks.)

Marker Drone: Marker Drones are equipped with a Markerlight and extensive sensor systems: The Drone grants the Acute Senses USR to the unit attached, as well as an extra Markerlight.
(and despite the price drop, I have to say I still probably wouldn't take one. but I'm not making every unit for my personal preference, else the piranhas wouldn't even be IN the army list!)

Remora: The largest Drone models currently built, Remora are actually fielded - and controlled by-, the Air Caste. Light and moderately capable, wings of Remora may be fielded in larger air battles, where their powerful Stealth systems
(better gun and 5 points cheaper than the old FW version? yes please. More limited availability though.)

Shield Drone: Toughness and Armour values are identical to the model purchasing them, and, after wounds are assigned, one wound on the protected model or his unit may be re-assigned to the Shield Drone. 4+ inv save of course.
(yup, this is what I did with them. note that by my fixup of the rules, if orphaned, they could become the shields for a group of re-networked drones. but their toughness is set. that gets a bit annoying to keep track of in some cases, so stop buying 2 for every bloody suit you own!)

Sniper Drone: Sniper Drones provide accurate anti-personel firepower. Their limited thrust is caused by the large amount of power dedicated to the firing of their deadly and precise weapon.
(3" move, 3" assault move. but worth it now. actually worth it.)

'orphaned' drones as focused called'em earlier I'd been having work differently. Drones that lose their controller? They have ONE turn left. 3 things can happen.

1) A model with an advanced controller is on the field: if at least four drones get 'orphaned', he may network them into a brand new unit. Yes, that can mean a gun drone, 2 shield drones and a markerlight. They'll probably be out of coherency, but hey, better than being lost. The ADC model's extra drones (it allows 5 instead of 2) may be used to supplement this; very useful! The extra squad doesn't count as KPs; those are already lost when their originating squadrons blew up. (I hate KP. it probably shows given my added ways to avoid'em)

2) The drones aren't numerous enough, or don't have an ADC around to link up: in this case, order default: They get DOUBLE RoF in the shooting phase (of course this pretty much means jack all to shields or the deflector drone), so 4 pulse shots or 2 EMP or markerlight shots, and, having expended their ammunition, do indeed leave the battlefield (as casualties)

3) They didn't have guns, and will attach to the nearest unit, period. This is shield drones (its bloody unlikely a deflector will ever do this) only more or less. Shield drones get a little suicidal and WILL join and intercept even for vehicle squadrons or tanks (I might remove this depending on how abusable this ends up being).

@Maj Tom and Jayden- Thanks guys. You caught me being lazy and auto-importing old rules without fully thinking them through. The shield drones are getting T4 Sv3+. The T4 is now standard on all of my drones(Insert fleff reason about solid state tech is more durable than flesh and blood)and the 3+ save is from not having to carry bulky weapons systems thus being able to have extra armour. I will immediately edit my post to reflect this change and a few others.

I'm still going to keep the assuming control ability.

Will giving the shield drones the T4 and Sv3+ fix the problem? You guys let me know.


Also further thanks to both of you. I noticed some ommissions from hurrying when reading the stuff quoted back at me and then looking at the exploitive example.

First, Under the Machines entry I forgot to note that ranged weapons with the pinning ability in their rules can pin the drones as the final carifying point in that rule.

Second, I forgot to put down the drones must stay within 2" coherency of each other with at least one drone within 2" of the controlling model.

Third, forgot to note the stat changes for the other drones.

I will be correcting this after I'm done writing this post. Again thanks guys.


@Nova and Maj Tom, I agree idealistically with the slight down playing of the drones to them being considered pets. Problem is how does a pet hold an objective? This is the only reason why I'm sticking to my original wording. Now if one of you can justify how to make a pet a scoring unit then I'll be completely on-board.

I do completely agree with the thought that they would be used for the more dangerous work because the drones are easier to repair(Tau need Repair and medic drones). If you don't mind I'm going to take this and hybid it with the current dangerous mission/done fluff as a part of my explanation of why drones can now hold objectives and score for doing so.

Nova, got no prob with you using the Machines psyker resistant rule. I'm planning on mentioning you, Maj Tom, Jayden, and Killkrazy in the contributing authors notes when this finally gets typed up and made into a PDF. I'm growing more intigued with your version as we go along.

*In reply to your question. I have not heard anything as of yet from Malfred, other than his original reply that implied for us to handle it in thread and maybe PDFs sent to one another. Wish I could be of more help.

Maj Tom, The distance represents a simple circular field. This is following the rule for K.I.S.S.. Now the HtH intercept is a part of their programmed behavior.

About the melta drones. They would be BS2 and only able to go up to BS3 with my version of the markerlight rules. Still I can kinda see where it Could be considered Cheesy. This is just an instance of "most other armies get it why don't we" thinking and my trying to save time by cloning an ability for the army rather than being creative. I'll think about it and listen to everyones input before I decide to yank the special weapon drones or not(I'm really attached to the idea but your point is very sound.

Maybe if I put a only 2 per any unit clause?


A Question for you guys. Should the Shield drones only give the inv to shooting attacks? Im thinking of doing this. It would be a nice balancing point and a way to encourage buying shield generators. Plus, If you get caught in HtH with the guerilla tactics rule, you wouldn't deserve the invulnerable save IMO.

As always your input will be appreciated, later

focusedfire wrote:@Nova and Maj Tom, I agree idealistically with the slight down playing of the drones to them being considered pets. Problem is how does a pet hold an objective? This is the only reason why I'm sticking to my original wording.

Guard dogs. Now consider the drone is less of a routine/habit forming critter and can have "protect the house/master's-family" substituted for "that box over there" at any time with just a few coded burst transmissions.

They may be limited in their ability to exploit the objective itself, depending on whether or not a gun drone has any remote interfaces or micromanipulators it can deploy, but ensuring a site is secure and going 'sentry' should be a relatively easy thing to have programmed compared to active tank-hunting algorythms behind enemy lines. If not-friendlies show up, they know what to do. That guard dog has plasma-induction weapons for teeth, multiple independant sensor systems and compound data collection from multiple input points within the network, atop of a complete tactical library and possibly realtime data uplinks to ones capable of saying 'good boy' or changing their orders.

All that and they don't even make a mess on the carpet.

About the melta drones.

I'm not huge on that myself: Drones I believe should MOSTLY be restricted to the simpler, easier to use weaponry, and preferably systems without massive power requirements. I'd have much less difficulty with a missile version instead, for example.

A Question for you guys. Should the Shield drones only give the inv to shooting attacks? Im thinking of doing this. It would be a nice balancing point and a way to encourage buying shield generators. Plus, If you get caught in HtH with the guerilla tactics rule, you wouldn't deserve the invulnerable save IMO.

Not really sure. to be honest I went and made the shield drones possibly MORE useful than they were in 3rd on my end. Shield generators in my list are just 15 points now, the same as a shield drone. But the drone can be dropped by a single hit, or will have others assigned to you anyways, while a shield generator protects you outright. Perhaps the shield only applies to their defense of others in the shooting phase but still functions for them in assault?

I think we COULD be safely seeing drones as a more pervasive, important part of an army list anyways. while everyone and their mother wears two crux terminatus in their pants behind a refractor field, Tau instead have loyal shield generators that follow them around: more useful in some ways, less in others.

@Nova- A good reason for holding but still doesn't justify the scoring part. Something is missing here but I can't place my finger on it. I'll think on it and get back to you.


I might just drop both the flamer and the melta and instead just have the sniper and "new AFP drones" in limited supply. I'll crunch the numbers. Probably will go with what I thought of originally so that I stay closer to my original concept. Then will modify once we get everyones input and some playtesting in.

Scoring units are, by page 90's definition, the 'grunt' types left holding and defending a position while the more elite/specialised forces keep on going. The 'grunts' are thus left to consolidate, dig in and protect the location from enemy attack.

For Tau, by their simplicity, low cost and definitive grunt status (not to mention the whole 'guard dog' aspect I mentioned), Gun Drones are de-facto the IDEAL scoring unit. They're quite capable of hanging back, completely self-sufficient for simple orders such as "guard this location", and well equipped to deal with intruders while not carrying the rare specialised equipment which one may need to break through and capture the next objective.

They'll then be fast and mobile enough once all is done to return to friendly lines or join the rest of the army without needing a pick-up once the terrain is secured. Furthermore they are the 'individuals' best equipped of all the troops for pulling back and bugging out when someone comes to take that terrain by force (let them take the land, blow them all to bits, land is yours by "default": the two greatest words in the english language); certainly more difficult to pin down and wipe out than some fire-warriors with a big obvious devilfish that may leave them stranded if shot down, and I personally find myself wondering why FW squads should be scoring instead of bugging out, while the drones hold the area!

Oh, and there's the sentry and sensor drone parts from Taros too...

Well that's just my view on the subject...

Right now everything seems a little jumbled on your ideas, its only because we are seeing everything piecemeal. I was going to hold off commenting on specific stuff until I see everything at the same time. But this needs mentioning.

focusedfire wrote:

A)Shield Drones: WS2 BS- S3 T 4 W1 I4 A1 Ld* Sv3+

Equipment: Shield Generators, Flechettes
*Same as contolling model

Unit type:Same as controlling model

Special Rules:

Close protection-Shield Drones always have the same Toughness, Leadership, and Save as their controlling model. They also intercede automatically when the controlling model is assaulted. This is represented by the drones being able to switch places with the controlling model if the unit is assaulted.

Flechettes-Any enemy model in base to base contact with the shield drones will trigger the Flechettes. The enemy models are considered automatically hit by a S3 AP- ignores cover weapon, before any HtH attacks are resolved in that assault, Armour and Invulnerable saves are allowed.

Thanks to 5th ed wound allocation (put wounds anywhere you want) the fact that the drone and controlling model change position is unnecessary. Because of the weapon load out difference, you can easily put any power weapon/p-fist attack against the drone. However, you added in Flechettes rule. Now with the swap, depending on what assaulted its possible to now kill off specific models in the enemy unit before they attack. Thats character sniping. Make VERY sure you want to go down that road, before you do this. This one aspect alone will get you cries of Uber Stinky Cheese.

Hmm, you guys might want to start a new thread at some point so the rest of us can have a chance at catching up with what you're talking about

Unless this is like one of those secret handshakes you don't want to let everybody in on until it's completely polished and ready to show off

Up high...!

Down low...!

Too slow...!

RiTides Nids wrote:Hmm, you guys might want to start a new thread at some point so the rest of us can have a chance at catching up with what you're talking about

Unless this is like one of those secret handshakes you don't want to let everybody in on until it's completely polished and ready to show off

Up high...!

Down low...!

Too slow...!

I beliee its the later in this case. I still havent read pages 6-20 (but dont tell any of the regulars! )


Backhand!

To the side!

Inside now!

Oh! GOD NO! AH MY CHEST! YOU REACHED INSIDE MY CHEST!! WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT! MY HAND WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT IN THERE! I MEAN GOOD GOD MAN DO YOU HON-HURG-Blaaaarrrgh....

focusedfire wrote:
About the melta drones. They would be BS2 and only able to go up to BS3 with my version of the markerlight rules. Still I can kinda see where it Could be considered Cheesy. This is just an instance of "most other armies get it why don't we" thinking and my trying to save time by cloning an ability for the army rather than being creative. I'll think about it and listen to everyones input before I decide to yank the special weapon drones or not(I'm really attached to the idea but your point is very sound.

Maybe if I put a only 2 per any unit clause?

Hmm.. The more i read that last, the more i like it.

ANd over the past day of meditating on the idea, i have come to sympathize with your attachment, but i havent been able to get over the image of a cloud of melta weapons all over the field. I find your 2 per unit to be a very nice solution.

Maybe have a separate Drone type available in Flamer, BC(?), Missile pod(Nice idea), and, yes, Fusion Blaster. Maybe make the last two with lowered BS (or not, i dunno)

Also, I have difficulty seeing them giving missile pods and stuff to FW's. Maybe make them capable of taking 4 regular drones, and being able to replace two of them with Heaavy Drone of Flamer/BC variants? I think the lack of high AP weapons with the infantry is a blessing in disguise. Allowing the apponent to be lured close to them, and as they withdraw in 'fear', coincidentally within 75" of a broadside unit or hammerhead, there is a boom.

focusedfire wrote:

A Question for you guys. Should the Shield drones only give the inv to shooting attacks? Im thinking of doing this. It would be a nice balancing point and a way to encourage buying shield generators. Plus, If you get caught in HtH with the guerilla tactics rule, you wouldn't deserve the invulnerable save IMO.

Good point, but i think it is less a matter of deserving, and more a matter of logic (convoluted as mine might be )Maybe, since it is a ball, and since FW can pass through it (to walk) maybe make the Tau player force a reroll on any to hit rols in CC within 1" (reflecting the area of resistance that could deflect an ill-executed punch-in-the-feet.)

I know the thread is long so please don't make it longer with nonsense posts. There are several members who are seriously involved in the thread.

Maj. Tom wrote:Oh! GOD NO! AH MY CHEST! YOU REACHED INSIDE MY CHEST!! WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT! MY HAND WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT IN THERE! I MEAN GOOD GOD MAN DO YOU HON-HURG-Blaaaarrrgh....

Maj. Tom- I laughed out loud

Kilkrazy- No problem, I just thought more of us could catch up / see what you guys are talking about if it was put in a new thread. Just a thought

Some ideas for the drones:

Drone squads
Squadron: 2-8 Standard Drones
Type: Jump
Options: Up to two Standard drones may be exchanged for heavy drones

Standard Drones
10 Pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 3 3 3 1 4 1 7 4+

Equipment: Standard drones are equipped with Twin-linked Pulse carbines.

Options:* Standard drones may exchange their Twin-linked Carbines for a Drone Shield Generator at +5, or a Rail-rifle at +10
*only two Drones per Drone squadron may take this option.

Special Rules:
Mr. Roboto: Since they are machines, independent drones always pass any morale checks other than pinning.
Total Recall: The controlling player may choose to have a squadron fail any given morale check, Mr. Roboto does not apply to the following regroup test.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Heavy Drones

20 pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 2 3 3 1 2 1 - 4+

Equipment: Heavy drones are equipped with a Flamer

Options: They Flamer may be exchanged for a BC or Marker-light at +5 pts, a Missile Pod* at +10, or a Fusion Blaster** at +15. They may also take a Targeting Array.

*The Missile Pod option confers a '-1 BS per 12" to target' penalty on the Drone
**The Fusion Blaster option confers a -2 BS penalty
Special rules:
Heavy Drones are Relentless regardless of Unit type or special rules
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sniper Team

Team: Same as codex, move to Elite FOC section

Spotter
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 3(4) 3 3 1 4 1 7 4+

Equipment: Pulse pistol, Networked Marker-light, Stealth field, Targeting array, and Sniper Drone Special Controller.

Options: The spotter may donn an XV15 stealth-suit for X pts.

Special Rules:
Behind-the scenes: the spotter needs only maintain 4" coherency with the rest of the team, in place of the normal 2". The drones must still maintain 2" coherency with each-other
I'm a real boy!: The spotter must comply with the penalties imposed when his(/her) drones make use of their special rules. However, he gains no benefit from them other than "Sighting In", in which case he/she only gains +1 BS

Sniper drone
20
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 2(3) 3 3 1 4 1 7 4+

Equipment: 1 sniper Rail-rifle, Stealth field, Targeting Array

Special Rules
Mr. Roboto
Total Recall
Relentless: They are that
No-scope: Any team(the entire team) may declare slow and purposeful at any-time before the movement phase. If they do this, they gain +1 BS, but they may not do anything during the assault phase of that turn. This ends at the beginning of the next turn.
Sighting in: If a player declares Sighting in for any tri-drone group, That group may neither move nor hold objectives for the remainder of the turn. In exchange they become automatically an obscured target, and gain +2 BS.
Snipers USR




____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Infantry HW DC
(In the infantry Armoury)

Enables equipped model to take drones. Up to four Standard drones may be taken, in any combination.

For X points, you may trade any two regular Drones assigned to any given controller (reword needed: eg, both on 1 controller) for 1 Heavy Drone. This may be done twice per model. This option may only be taken once per unit.

Advanced HW DC

Enables equipped model to take drones. Up to four Standard drones may be taken, in any combination.

For X points, you may trade any regular Drones assigned to any given controller (reword needed: eg, both on 1 controller) for 1 Heavy Drone. This may be done twice per model. This option may only be taken once per unit.



Did i forget anything?
Comments? Questions? Concerns as to my mental health? Post-em™ up!

Maj. Tom wrote:Special rules:
Mr. Roboto: Since they are machines, independent drones always pass any morale checks other than pinning.

I just saw Monsters vs. Aliens, and there's also a shout-out to Mr. Roboto- the president (voiced by Stephen Colbert) goes up to a huge alien probe and plays that music as a first way of making contact

The rules look well thought out... I'll save more detailed comments for after I've read a little more of this

Ok, I'm sorry but when I read this, I had to quote one of my favorite motivational posters.... What The feth Is This gak.

Maj. tom wrote:
Heavy Drones

20 pts
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
2 2 3 3 1 2 1 - 4+

Equipment: Heavy drones are equipped with a Flamer

Options: They Flamer may be exchanged for a BC or Marker-light at +5 pts, a Missile Pod* at +10, or a Fusion Blaster** at +15. They may also take a Targeting Array.

*The Missile Pod option confers a '-1 BS per 12" to target' penalty on the Drone
**The Fusion Blaster option confers a -2 BS penalty
Special rules:
Heavy Drones are Relentless regardless of Unit type or special rules

Why would anyone ever buy heavy drone that wasn't the flamer? The freekin base cost of a crisis suit is 25 points, a missle pod is only 12 points and it doesn't suffer any pentalities for range. In the case of the fusion blaster, would anyone really purchase a 35 point model that will hit once a fething game. Bull gak.

Why do people making Tau units feel the need to hamstung them. This is like Eternal Warrior, but only not quite. This is like rending, but not quite. This is like Gauss weaponry, only not quite.

Stop it, just stop. Do eldar have to pay extra points for decreased performance from their heavy weapons. No. Do orks no, chaos, deamonhunters, SM, DE, Necrons. No No No. So why should we. If your going to give a drone a fusion blaster make it so it can actually kill something that game. Don't penalize a missile pod just because its not on a crisis suit.

Sorry about my language people, but my hell. Your trying to be too cute, different, etc. but all your doing is making extra measurments and downgrading the upgrade. Whats the point of doing that? Why? If you going to give a unit something, allow them to actually use it as it was fully intended. No more hamstringing gak. If an option cannot be used to its full potential without any drawbacks, then rethink the original option and make it work without adding in extra math/measurements/etc.

K.I.S.S. Someone mentioned it a page or two back, but I haven't read a many entries since then that has actually followed it.

Well, first off, The extra points are to have extra support within a FW squad, and second off, i put as many seconds of thought as can be counted on one foot. and thats 11. so there. Im am in no way attached to these numbers and was merely using them to illustrate which things were more expensive options than others. And the Markerlight drone is 30 pts, way overpriced but nonetheless. The other options are for if you have a semi shooty enemy, but is still gonna get close. They are mainly for FW support. and if they get tank-shock.


Also, do not ever assume to inform me of my intentions. And if you nevertheless do feel compelled to give me what-for, do it in commonly accepted english. (Or, for fairness' sake, some other widely accepted written language) I mean good-god man, even 133t-speak is better than that god-awful nerd jabber from some TV show that has gone on for entirely too long. I caution you to bide your tongue on the rare occasion that you are in the physical presence of another human being. Should you vacate the permanent depression your ass imparts on your throne, thus for even one moment you abandon your sole nurturer and care-giver, the internet, you will find that people are disinclined to refrain from punching you right in your pompous, self-righteous, self-assured face, thereby knocking that look of entitlement off of your grimacing features. God forbid you dispel the silhouette that has faded into the wallpaper behind you, imparted by the glow of the monitor, with sunlight. I will not part ways with a curse, but rather with a sincere wish of good luck towards you, for I feel you and those like you are the ones who need it most of all.

Sounds like Mr. Tom need to get out and follow your own advice. The use of swearing in moments of frustration and disdain is a time honored litterary tradition going back to the days of Shakespear, Keets, Twain and others.

Sometimes there are no other words that can convey the totality of the emotion that someone has for something. As for 133t-speak. Its Dakkas own boards that sensor the words. Trust me, I typed the whole word. I'm not into the Battlestar Gallatica way of swearing by just changing a few letters. When I type feth. I mean feth. <-- it did it again.

I'm not interested in your intentions either, so how can I tell you what you intended to do. I'm not you. I'm only interested in the finished product, I really don't care how you came about it. If I see something that looks poorly thought out, I'm going to say so. My intention is to let you know what I feel is off, and why I feel it is so. However if you don't want to know what others are thinking, good, bad, or indifferent, don't post. Also if its "going to become clearer" with later information at least hint that there is other information so that maybe we are willing to hold our tongues until we get the whole picture.

We are after a finished product. Like all good writing, the number of ideas, paragraphs, etc that end up on the cutting room floor should be immeasurable to what actually ends up in the final version. We each have to be willing to sacrifice what we consider our "best" idea if in the grand scheme of things the whole turns out better for its omission.

I expect the same critism of any ideas I myself have put forth, with the same passion put into their inclusion, or omission, or just plain wrongness that we give the offical GW codexs about rules that they have that make us scratch our heads. Its only by figuring out what will and wont work that we will get something that functions. Sadly most people (myself included) are reluctant or flat out can't take a step back and look at something objectivly, after all it was born from our own self imagined superior brain. It should be perfect right? We know what it should do? Often its up to others to tell us that that isn't what the actual words say.

Just a few suggestions after reading the other posts for ways to improve my first army

Give seekers a blast mode- Large blast, S4 AP5, up the regular mode to AP1, and leave points cost

Give pathfinders the ability to 'fortify' whatever piece of terrain they scout into similar to a techmarine, one use only. That terrain is also 'mined' against enemy units, as per scout bikers, plus adds benefit of defensive grenades. Points bump.

Drop rail rifles from pathfinders

Any model with a markerlight can fire at a different target than the rest of his squad if he so chooses

Specific devilfish upgrades for df bought for different unit types
- Honor Guard devilfish can cast permanent night-fighting aura 3" around the hull for points cost
- Firewarrior devilfish can get upgraded vox to let any FW squad in 3" use the commanders LD
- Reinforced side armor available for Pathfinder devilfish
- Medicae facility that grants FNP to fire warriors only against shooting attacks- 30 points

I want it to be very difficult to wipe out Tau infantry with shooting, but very easy to do so if you can come to grips with them in close combat.

Increase crisis suit max squad size to four, allow them to move 18 inches a turn- divided however the owning general decides. So, 1" in movement, 17" in assault, or 12" and 6", 9" and 9", whatever.

Also- Kroot get stealth and I 4 for a 2 point increase

Vespids get the originally rumored templates @ s3, making a squad of them like cheap tzeetch flamers


solid shot railfun can fire almost like a vibrocannon- first hit is as normal, any / unit behind that gets hit w/ S8 AP3 hit, behind that S6 AP5 S4 AP- then it finally looses lethal energy. Will it have much of an effect? Not really, but I think it would be cool to show the extreme velocity of the round smashing through three tanks, possibly, line abrest.

Right. We've had nearly two pages of mostly just chatting. I'd imagine Focused is probably out for the weekend or something, and my own stuff is in limbo till we get news on how much its okay to just post (and where one can do so), as otherwise I've a whole fandex more or less ready.

I was gonna keep quiet till I saw all the hamstrung suggestions. Those got to the cutting floor about 45 revisions ago (yes, I've opened, changed and saved the armylist part of the two files I've made mine as about 80 times; the other 'round 30 but usually in big broad 'half the thing's deleted).

A few examples:
-Broadsides were gonna be BS4, with the Heavy 2 railgun making them BS3 instead. But then the whole markerlight system rolls over that and really makes the thing just a cheap copout for saving points.
-The special issue ion carbine was gonna be a -1BS for its alternate fire mode. Then I realised I was being an idiot, and that losing a shot just to drop the thing's AP by 1 when it was this expensive was already the right cost to effectiveness.
-Commanders originally had an overwatch special for regular crisis teams, as I'd expanded the weapon list enough that it was starting to be questionable to take crisis over stealths or broadsides or heavy drones (I'll get to THOSE later). you want convoluted? this thing involved getting their weapon attacks at effectively I "11", firing a single battlesuit weapon instead of your normal attacks, once per game.

Now this wasn't a terrible idea in concept, but making the rules anything but non-clunky and not-potentially-abusable was getting troublesome. Plus back then I hadn't fully rebuilt the markerlight system, and so this was just an early attempt at having units give something to others.

Oh by the way: That drone idea: Wouldn't be allowed to fire at all unless it also bought the array, if using the fusion blaster. BS0... Either way, a terrible deal. Which brings me to heavy drones...

Heavy drones: Love drones, love the heavies, like the concept, but then you get to work on its execution, trying to make them fit into an army, and you have a problem.

In their original variant, you can't just dump a heavy support FoC for burst cannons and markerlights. Good point efficiency for your hits, sorta, well, a lot compared to the **** <pick a 4-letter word, any 4-letter word> marker drone: 60 points for a single hit is STILL bad enough in my new markerlight system that the price needed to drop.
you can't just take'em as dual burst cannons; then why not just take stealth suits, for MARGINALLY less accuracy but far greater defense, in elites slot where there's less fighting for space?

And the special weapons? what are we doing, crisis by another name? Ah. Yes, that's EXACTLY what it comes down to.

Heavy drones are the greatest alternate model thing you'll find for your crisis. But let's be honest, that's what we want them for and what they are: A different crisis model. We try to camoflage it but in the end, those special weapons are on the XV8 for a reason: that's the tau way.

The best I've managed to do, is install a single Broadside secondary weapon (so twinlinked burst, missile, plasma or a single SMS), as an HQ detatchment, with advanced multitracker or targetting array (which weapon decides which you get) and all-but-the-mega-melee monstrous creaturedom.

No, it doesn't even get a flamer. But flamers I think of as almost borderline for tau: except against orks and tyranid, they'd probably have a hard time wanting to field it. However, that doesn't matter; there's a few sources of blasts and templates more in my codex anyways, including a very easy seeker strike. So just burst'em with a markerlight-team once or twice and expend the counters and be done with it; lets you keep the hell away from that flamer range!

Well forgive me then. My definition of accepted language includes explicit language and colloquialisms. Actually, should you meet me in person, you'll find i use quite a bit of colorful turns of phrases. But when not speaking face to face i try to use as clear language as possible, since gone are the mediums of body-language and voice cues in the internet. How can you tell me to follow my advice when you don't even know me? I could be a 9 year-old with a thesaurus for all you know (yes i realize the hypocrisy of this statement given my previous post, and again i apologize for being so rash). I mistook your use of the words feth and gak as, well, your use. I was not aware of Dakka's filter.

Secondly, I try to objectify things as much as possible, I am not always successful but i do try. Had you read my couple previous posts you would (i hope) realize that i am merely trying to contribute to that end result. My aim was to put forth my idea, in order that people may dissect it and criticize it, whereby making it better. Or, if the whole just doesn't work, then maybe incorporating aspects of it into their own ideas. Thus does evolution take place, and the end result will be adapted to the current trends of thought. My overall intended influence is that it stays within the bounds of, at least I consider, the core meaning of what it is to be Tau. If my ideas are totally irrelevant, then may i serve as an example of others, but not before they get due consideration, as much as anyone's suggestions.

Thirdly, as you said, you couldn't know my intentions. However, you felt obligated to inform me of them anyway.

Jayden63 wrote:
Your trying to be too cute, different, etc. but all your doing is making extra measurments and downgrading the upgrade. Whats the point of doing that? Why? If you going to give a unit something, allow them to actually use it as it was fully intended. No more hamstringing gak. If an option cannot be used to its full potential without any drawbacks, then rethink the original option and make it work without adding in extra math/measurements/etc.

If you get the impression that i am trying to be cute or whatnot, tell me that you get that impression, so i can explain myself or correct myself.

All this talk of sacrificing our Point of view for a better result is great. However, nowhere in your post can i see constructive criticism. All I see is, if i may paraphrase "This is garbage! Im only throwing it away because it's worthless to me" "i beleive thats in someones sig . If you have a better idea, or some modification you could propose, than by all means, lets hear it. If not, then say what is wrong with it in clear, concise terms. But don't go on a long useless tangent like that that brings very little to the overall discussion.

@ nova, thx 4 da input, i realize i need some clarification. My hindsight is 20:20

Nova wrote:Right. We've had nearly two pages of mostly just chatting. I'd imagine Focused is probably out for the weekend or something, and my own stuff is in limbo till we get news on how much its okay to just post (and where one can do so), as otherwise I've a whole fandex more or less ready.

I was gonna keep quiet till I saw all the hamstrung suggestions. Those got to the cutting floor about 45 revisions ago (yes, I've opened, changed and saved the armylist part of the two files I've made mine as about 80 times; the other 'round 30 but usually in big broad 'half the thing's deleted).

To clarify, the 'hamstringing' was done with little thought to game dynamics, 'fairness', nor being like another codex, but more of drawing realist parallels in the game. Thus if you walk, well, slowly and purposefully, you can sight in better. And if you go prone, though you cannot walk anywhere, you can aim even better. As to the missile pod, The farther away a target is, the more complex of a trajectory calculation the drone must make, since missiles travel considerably slower than projectiles. And the fusion blaster is a large weapon, and the missile pod and the fusion blaster were meant to take the TA pretty much standard.

nova wrote:
Oh by the way: That drone idea: Wouldn't be allowed to fire at all unless it also bought the array, if using the fusion blaster. BS0... Either way, a terrible deal. Which brings me to heavy drones...

Heavy drones: Love drones, love the heavies, like the concept, but then you get to work on its execution, trying to make them fit into an army, and you have a problem.

In their original variant, you can't just dump a heavy support FoC for burst cannons and markerlights. Good point efficiency for your hits, sorta, well, a lot compared to the **** <pick a 4-letter word, any 4-letter word> marker drone: 60 points for a single hit is STILL bad enough in my new markerlight system that the price needed to drop.
you can't just take'em as dual burst cannons; then why not just take stealth suits, for MARGINALLY less accuracy but far greater defense, in elites slot where there's less fighting for space?

I was trying to make the fusion's BS to be 2(3) in practice. The maths, and indeed the entire thing, was done on-the-spot, as i wanted to get this out there asap so that all could build upon it.

And i am appalled that i forgot to mention that they can't be thier own unit!!!!!!!!!!! All the extra hardware and targeting equipment results in a machine of less than stellar intelligence. Thus they dont take up a FOC space. They are wargear. 8 of these guys would be lost on their own. Thats why theres a max of 2 of them per unit, (did i forgot to mention this ! ) they need the controller to give them targeting solutions.

***omitted rule!*** Heavy drones may only fire at the same unit as their controlling model
-or-
Heavy drones may only fire at a unit if there is a model equipped with a drone controller in their unit is firing at that unit.

In Gun Drone squads, (max 2 per squad) they can and must fire at the same target as the rest of the drones.

nova wrote:
And the special weapons? what are we doing, crisis by another name? Ah. Yes, that's EXACTLY what it comes down to.

Heavy drones are the greatest alternate model thing you'll find for your crisis. But let's be honest, that's what we want them for and what they are: A different crisis model. We try to camoflage it but in the end, those special weapons are on the XV8 for a reason: that's the tau way.

I agree with this, but the tau are lacking in self-support for the FWs. Thats why theres a max of two, and i believe i forgot to mention that they can't be mixed within a unit. I am not trying to mask anything, The crisis suits are something i wish to stay in thier position of awe, and with thier versatility, they stay there. Might the heavies not count as jump-troops? And i failed to specify that the crisis suits cannot take heavies, since they have no need. I like the dynamic of the 3e codex myself, but givin what i have seen as the current trend of thought, i was merely trying to bring in the new, without compromising the old in any way.

Also, i suggest themed armies, such as a classic army type, limited to Tau only + 1(or 2) units of orcs, plus others.

nova wrote:
No, it doesn't even get a flamer. But flamers I think of as almost borderline for tau: except against orks and tyranid, they'd probably have a hard time wanting to field it. However, that doesn't matter; there's a few sources of blasts and templates more in my codex anyways, including a very easy seeker strike. So just burst'em with a markerlight-team once or twice and expend the counters and be done with it; lets you keep the hell away from that flamer range!

Thes, i think, were borne out of the threat of orcs and such. In order to cover an organized fall back. I don't know since i am not the progenitor of the concept. (not seriously anyways, but it does have a good deal of mearit, i think.)

Again, any constructive criticisms or suggestions such as these are always welcome