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Maj. Tom wrote:

All this talk of sacrificing our Point of view for a better result is great. However, nowhere in your post can i see constructive criticism. All I see is, if i may paraphrase "This is garbage! Im only throwing it away because it's worthless to me" "i beleive thats in someones sig . If you have a better idea, or some modification you could propose, than by all means, lets hear it. If not, then say what is wrong with it in clear, concise terms. But don't go on a long useless tangent like that that brings very little to the overall discussion.

This bit is my bad. I have a really bad habit of almost never giving positive feedback. When talking about a movie with my friends I will always be the first to point out the negatives, even if I really enjoyed the positives. I figure there are always 10 or so people willing to gush over how awesome something is, why should I just add in a "Me too".

For the most part, if I don't comment about a section of a post, that means I agree with it or don't have a problem with it.

I admit its probably the wrong way to do things. It makes me come off as a negative person because of that. Also a lot of people that receive criticism fall into the mind set "Well if they didn't like that, they probably didn't like the rest of it." Even if that's not the case, its just so much easier for the mind to include everything as the negative rather than look around at wasn't said as the positive.

So again, I'm sorry for coming off as a harsh negative bastard. I'll attempt at doing better at emphasizing that which works as well as that which, in my opinion, could use some more work.

Self support? a little, though they're really only lacking in my version when it comes to "not pulse" weaponry; with the markerlight system around they're accurate, high strength guns with 15" doubletap range, or 18" assault 2 with a 1/game EMP grenade launch (gun drones that lose their controller may very well take out a vehicle on their way off the battlefield) which if numerous enough counts as the whole squad having photons. Rather, a lot of the army's abilities are better defined as "good support for the warriors", while in my dex the gun drones are the truly self-sufficient ones; but nowhere near as capable when supported (no markerlight, lower melee capacity though higher init, etc).

A lot of the support now comes from air.. support, a lot of it in the form of seekers. I'd view an average list as having 4-12 of the things, depending on whether anyone mounts a First-gen skyray or a Grav-Launcher, or remoras, or the like, when around 1500 points. These could be 8/3 small blasts, submunition double-templates, or emp double-hit haywire missiles.

With just two markerlight counters though, FW become nasty little critters, whom'll pass on another marker hit if they took a light, making an extremely powerful step either in anti-light vehicle or anti-horde duty, despite the lack of flamers.

Or, to be more precise; the army's got better support for S5 now.

game-wise, i like your idea, but i just think that the main thing about tau is their versatility. SM are very standard, if you get what i mean. Very uniform. The thing i see with tau is that they are flexible and versatile, but they stick to what works. Thus you have only one type of thing to any given purpose. But you have enough things to face a wide range of enemies. Its kinda late, im tired, this isnt making much sense i realize. But i figure i might as well post this convoluted response that actually takes fluff support away from my drone idea. All thats really left is personal sentimentality. I feel as if theres other supporting reasons and will post them in an edit if i can remember them after some sleep.


....Ahh, To be a robot....

You're not entirely off in saying that, no. There's a lot to be said for the feel of an army, or what it evokes in your mind. One certainly can't be faulted for worrying or wishing an army would fit how they see/picture it, especially if its close and just 'lacking a little bit or two'.

I actually see it the other way personally; with the marines lugging around all sorts of varying equipment (let's face it, the tac squad fluffwise barely even exists, and even then its because they're all carrying the top of the imperium equipment line to begin with), with multiple grenades, items, sensors and all that.

Whereas I look at fire warriors and see something a little more in the middle. I'm not really sure I can even convey this properly but... its like an eldar aspect?: The Fire Warrior team has something; they call it a pulse rifle. It is a good gun. a strong gun. It works on people, it works on light vehicles, it works on larger vehicles with badly armoured facings... Its a hawk's talon at a third of the price and downed to rapidfire, which means more wounds and more firepower when up close.

It may lack a little in personality but that's kinda their charm: generic grunts, each with just a little less power than most armies single heavy-weapons-guy. Uniformity, similarity, but kept on the good side of things.

...believe it or not, but thats what i meant. the army as a whole is veratile adaptable. Everything has its purpose, its function. everyone has thier niche. And hearing someone else voice my doubts confirms them. Move my heavy drones to *FARSIGHT ARMY SPECIAL RULES: SPECIAL UNITS* since i still think the tau should have themed Armies, with special rules for the different types. I see a wonderful opportunity here, but also opportunity for disaster. Should one take this trail, that one should definitly not be GW. It will need to be done thoughtfully and delicately, neither of which GW is famous for. Such as Aun'shi being brought back (i don't care how, say it was a typo in the fluff!) And him Being 1+ in a very balanced army type that is progressive, yet very much "classic Tau" in philosophies. Farsight being a very progressive army type, yet limited in supplies. O'shovah being something reflecting blind loyalty to a religious leader. These are rough ideas that need to be revised by a fully conscious brain lol.

Biggest worry I still have for my dex... the power level.

1) is the creep enough? not enough? too much?

2) did I add TOO MANY options for things like the devilfish (which now ranges from triple burst cannons at 60 points to a first-gen skyray with smart missiles at 125+wargear, just one markerlight though), and the Hammerhead or broadside suits?

Hammerhead primaries now the Variable Ion Cannon, Hammerhead Railcannon, Gravitic (skyray mkII) launcher... optional markerlight in the sensor turret, and secondaries include the old stuff plus 2 missile pods or a killer-drone system (a slightly larger, more versatile cross of missile and smart; a little weaker than the first, a little stronger than the latter)

My best suggestion would be to put all your ideas into it. Then, let it sit, then come back to it once the ideas have lost their novelty, and take away as much as you can in order to stay true to what you consider tau, but still make the changes uu really wan to see.

Alternateively post it all up so we can criticize and improve

Hey guys, Sorry it is taking a bit but the weekends are my busy time with me and the missus putting in about 30 hours of work trime in the two days. Now to cover some points.

Jayden63 wrote:Thanks to 5th ed wound allocation (put wounds anywhere you want) the fact that the drone and controlling model change position is unnecessary. Because of the weapon load out difference, you can easily put any power weapon/p-fist attack against the drone. However, you added in Flechettes rule. Now with the swap, depending on what assaulted its possible to now kill off specific models in the enemy unit before they attack. Thats character sniping. Make VERY sure you want to go down that road, before you do this. This one aspect alone will get you cries of Uber Stinky Cheese.

I, actually intended to go down this route. If the opponent doesn't line up his special characters against the drone equipped model he has nothing to worry about. I will go back and add to the rule that this happens at the beginning of the defenders reaction and only works when the controlling model is already locked in base to base. This will prevent the unit from intentionally engaging a special character and then swapping for the drones.

Does that clarification help?


Maj Tom-I like the concept behind your unit ideas but I believe that Jayden has a point that he is trying to make but failing to communicate. The problem I see is them being overly complex and thus slowing game play. A little tweeking and the ideas would be much more serviceable with out leaving the impression of, "Mega-Nerf GWs most terrifying monster".

@Everyone-The direction I'm going with on this codex is that the Tau are a balanced force that somewhat disdains HtH. Now this makes the army hard to balance in the traditional sense. The reliance upon a primarily ranged force means that in order to be balanced the army is going to have to be a borderline elite shooting army.

Making the Tau this borderline elite means that the units are going to be some what expensive when compared to Hoarde or swarm armies. Taking into account the improvements that I'm planning you'll understand why the units in the army aren't getting any cheaper. Heck I'm planning on them going up in points.

To answer why on this I'll point out the worry some of you guys's had of why ever take a crisis suit when you have these drones. To this I say exactly, in a way. BS 4 and 5 Crisis suits benefiting from my marker design should be expensive. Combine this with TLOS making the average Crisis team only 2 Strong in 5th ed to keep the units footprint down to where they can hide and you should be able to see where I'm going. To put it another way:
Will flamer drones make the Fire warriors nastier in HtH? No
Will BS2 Fusions do the same? No
Will these changes make them nastier in shooting. To a limited degree, yes.
Which unit would benefit the most from them?.......................

Thats right, the 2 man Crisis Teams.
Is this fairly balanced? I believe so. Here is why.
If the crisis team wishes to manuvuere to use the flamer then they cannot make use of the Guerilla tactics special rule and will most likely be assaulted the next turn.

What does a twin-linked BS3 fusion crisis suit cost? 48 Points. The two BS2 Fusion drones will come to 40 pts.

Which will hit more? The suit. Now up the drones to BS3 with markerlights and the odds change in favor of the drones.

When you combine this with the demand for the new shield drones and these slots are going to be pretty competitive. I see the SW Drone equipped crisis suits being monat(Lone wolves)hunter teams. Maybe right up fluff where they are the last surviving members of a bonded squad that go into a period of solitude before they can handle bonding to another team.


@Nova, I'll try to get the vehicle section up in the next day or two. Or I could go into the Weapons special characteristcs if you want.

*Sneak Peek* HammerHead railgun is able to fire a variety of rounds not available to its little brother on the broadsides.

These rounds are the Normal Railgun Solid Shot*, The Airburst Fragmentation Submunition round, and maybe the Phonton Sub-munition Burst , I'll get into details later.
*Improved profile

Gotta go and catch up on whats being posted and then sleep.

wait wait wait. a photon burst? I have no idea if we're thinking the same thing here, but I mused with using the damn thing to put down "nightfight" regions myself... basically anything under the template took only s3 hit (yeah a big lasgun of a shell) but was now in 'difficult' terrain, and had firing into or out of the area was a night-fight rules. Problem is I was seeing way too much abuse especially if I removed the damage part... I considered putting it back in but as a seeker.

overall the army under my dex version is marginally less expensive; most things being maybe 1 point less and with fewer 'extras' tacked on than they did with IG (who get grenades, etc etc). Skimmers are what dropped most in price, but that's pretty much global for the game as time goes on given 5th's changes. I've done my best to keep the army more or less medium-cost; I've always liked the Tau having more forces than ultra-elite marines/eldar, but without the giant meatgrinder of orks, nids and the guard. Efficient, not elite...

Here; in light of your upcomming weapon details, the hammerhead.
but first: broadsides: BS3, railgun's same as we know and love, and heavy 2. standard Ion Cannon available as cheaper alternative, or a MLRS for area damage. overall though, we all know it'll be ion or rail.

Heavy railcannons are also covered but being just a little bigger and nastier I don't need to go into much detail.

Hammerhead:
Variable Ion Cannon: 20 points. 60" S6 AP3 heavy 4. oh woo hoo, he lowered the strength, why should we pay more... but wait, that's not all! S8 AP2 EMP Heavy 2! potentially 4 glances (its a glance-only weapon); guaranteed to piss things off, even though its not as 'fireball of glory' as the rails. Absolutely sick against flyers and void shields.

Hammerhead Railcannon: (profile you love): Heavy 1 Blowthrough, or (submunition profile) that ignores cover.
Blowthrough: on a glance, penetrate or wound, roll d6: on a 4+ you get a bonus glance (or wound) as the thing blows out the other side, probably taking the OTHER sponson with it. I'm teetering on the edge of just making it 'on a hit' instead mind you; it would be simpler, but I feel probably too strong.

Against critters, IF the thing doesn't or can't instakill (saving throws work normally, this is a 'on wound), the additional wound MUST be taken by the same model. Otherwise, saves or not, it hits mike in the face after coming out of bob. the saves still working allow for moments of awesome, where it somehow manages to NOT be lethal to a termie, only for the shrapnel from the exit wound to go impale his buddy right dead, or whatever.

Gravitic Launcher: 8 seekers. Its your ammo. Swarm System included. Launcher can be used as swarm system or direct fire; doesn't matter, but what does matter is it only fires 2 missiles a turn (so either 2 seeker strikes, one swarm seeker strike, two direct-fire unlimited shots though that needs LOS, or one of one and another of the other). When firing pairs in same fashion, they do have to be the same warhead type, but that can mean 4 emp rolls on a target, or 4 submunition 'flamer templates'... or 4 8/3 standard seeker blasts...

Unlimited range, variable ammo, the 'tau' way of indirect fire, what more could you want?

RiTides Nids wrote:

Maj. Tom wrote:Oh! GOD NO! AH MY CHEST! YOU REACHED INSIDE MY CHEST!! WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT! MY HAND WAS OBVIOUSLY NOT IN THERE! I MEAN GOOD GOD MAN DO YOU HON-HURG-Blaaaarrrgh....

Maj. Tom- I laughed out loud

Kilkrazy- No problem, I just thought more of us could catch up / see what you guys are talking about if it was put in a new thread. Just a thought

I would like to do a summary however we have 23 pages of thread without general agreement on the core direction of a codex rewrite.

Some people want to introduce new classes of units, such as heavy drones and jet bikes. Some want a variety of new special rules or USRs to be allocated, for special characters and elite units. Some want cheaper units and some want more expensive, more elite units. I prefer to work within the existing framework and tinker with organisation, points costs and equipment capability (e.g. make the Pulse Rifle rage 15 Rapid Fire.)

It is not easy to reconcile all these different ideas and summarise them.

There seem to be two primary directions, but it'll be hard for anyone to see them all that well till Focused and I get a place to put them up.

Things we do all seem to have a consensus on:

1) Methods to avoid and punish, rather than win at, close combat

2) moderately expensive models: the main difference in opinion here being how much specialisation to grant them. Focused seems to be going towards the eldar route, with expensive, but less numerous, powerful units, whereas I'm going more middle of the road and focusing on point-efficiency at the expense of the higher extremes of ability (ie; more forgiving but less powerful than an aspect). But overall its generally understood we'll be bit less expensive than marines but less powerful, and more powerful than IG but less economical.

3) A need for a rework on combined arms as used by the tau: In my case the markerlight system becomes the core for this, making interlocking lines of fire far more effective than just one team of pathfinders plus a single unit using all that up.

Units as a whole need to be advantageous to those around them... not as pure dependance; tau should be more self-sufficient than that eldar-like fashion of doing things; but rather as the 'trick' to winning more often: some armies need to know how to maneuver, some need to know just what to pick, some don't really need much thought at all they're so forgiving... with tau, it should be on a shootier dark-eldar level: slightly more forgiving (better survivability), but a little less total-annihilation gamebreaking offensive if used masterfully.

Where we're mostly split, is on just how to do each individual unit or system, is all. Once we get a light to put things up more concretely, it'll be in a different thread, where I guess the two main dex ideas are either gonna battle it out, or exist as two very viable and interesting options (like chaos demons and chaos marines?). In the meantime, we can use more suggestions/questions/ideas.

I wish to echo what Nova said here. He has a pretty good grasp of the situation. The only thing I would straighten out is a slight misperception that I myself caused.

Nova- My version of the Tau are going for middle of the road to but the basic costs of battlesuits is going to increase to reflect the new standardized equipment.

I think the average XV-8 is going to run 35-40 points to reflect the included targeting arrays, drone controllers, and Tau optics. If you added the wargear to the current model the price would come out about even but at a higher base. This will in effect make the army more expensive by you having to buy the model with the wargear already included. The basic weapons upgrades will stay the same or in the case of plasma drop to 15 pts.

The basic fire warriors are going to end up being a little cheaper for a fully loaded unit but there are going to be the new drone options that people WILL want to use in their basic troops. So again added expense.

The vehicles are getting tweeked and will stay the same price but with much improved weaponry.

PS- You and I seem to be thinking very similarly on the Hammerhead Railgun. My special rule is called Peircing instead of Blowthrough. They are very similar but still have slight differences.

The Ion cannon we have similar ideas but fairly different effects.

Where everyone is going to go crazy with my idea of the vehicles will probably be the secondary weapons systems.

Gotta go, another 15-ish hour day calling.

I'm interested in this secondary systems change you mention.

XV8: In my case, the modularity was kept. Shas'Ui 34 points, Team leader 38, Shas'Vre 42. They're BS4, and the team lead or shas'vre can purchase a networked markerlight, making them extremely compatible in any order with the Commander. No other integrated changes, though drones are automatically available if shas'ui or higher (ground troops) or team lead or higher (battlesuits). Shas'Vre are cleared to use one special issue system each. I like how variable the suits are and tried to keep that by making the only integral upgrade BS one.
-Fusion/missile dropped by a point. one. Plasma by 2, but its assault 2 24". The CIB is no longer available; the current incarnation of the line, however, is slated to go into production as its pretty stable: the Gatling Ion Blaster is 24/4/4/assault4. Expensive but worth it. If we consider the airburst to be a 'flamer' upgrade, each weapon has its own special issue version, more or less.


FW gained little options other than the changes I listed earlier. their slightly lower costs and slightly improved weapons, along with the markerlight system, make them a more solid choice than they were, keeping their lack of special weapon options as their weakness.

Vehicles gained more options on average, with a price drop in skimmers but easily as -or slightly more- expensive with a full loadout. Other than the handful extra gun options, like the 'warfish' field support weapon options, my secondaries have little change save a few prices or the like. So I'm very interested in what you've done with the secondaries. I'm pretty happy with the primaries though.

Well how about the Tau have access to Uranium-238 and may add it to their submunition which makes it AP3 and 2+ poisoned attack or something like that to show its radioactivity? (All for the greater good of course).

That would be pretty unlikely: killing everyone is one thing, but salting the earth on a world you want is a pretty bad idea. 238's pyrophoric, sure, but its toxic effects are primarily from vaporising armour. Its radioactive properties mean cancers and mutations for troops and civilians down the line, not "and then the guy dies 5 minutes later".

DU's toxic and radioactive properties aren't much use on the battlefield, especially not for fast, "this must be casualty now" damage. Its penetration and ignition are what its good for on there; high density makes good penetrators, and if the thing catches fire just from vaporising, so much the better. The whole health hazard part? that's 5-10 years later when the whole population that moved in is having 3 armed cyclops babies with lukemia, and you realise half your old troops and civvies there are having multiple cancers at once, and I don't mean from metastasizing.

But any weapon that slags through armour is likely giving the whole vaporised molten metal effect anyways, including explosive ones, so really...

Nova- Before I get into the vehicle secondaries I just wanted to point out a couple of things that seem to be of a concensus.

1)We both have written the XV-8's getting integral targeting arrays for BS4

2)We both have Shas'ui and up integral drone controllers

3)We both have the Fire Warriors themselves almost identicle. The only difference will be in available drone options.

4)Drones will have a greater position of importance by being scoring units.

There are still others but add this to what you posted earlier and the basic format for a new codex is beginning to shape up.



Now to answer your questions.

The Photon Burst Shells are an AI controlled Cluster Bomb that upon being fired breaks into three AI guided clusters. The Photon Burst Shell has the following profile:
S n/a* AP n/a* Barrage 3 Large Blast, Pinning
*This Shell has no Strength or AP and because it does no damage, no saves of any type may be taken against its effects. The effects are that any units touched by one or more of the blast markers will fire at -2 BS their next shooting phase and there will be no need to roll for spotting distance during night fighting for any touched unit during the rest of that turn. Enemy units may not have their BS reduced to below 1.Any enemy unit touched by the blast emplates take a pinning test unless they are immune to the effects of pinning.

The Airburst Fragmentation Submuntion uses the same tech as the Airburst Fragmentaion Projector but benefits from more explosives per bomblet and the higher kinetic enrgy from being fired out of the Railgun. It's profile is: S6 AP4 Large Blast, Ignores cover.

Railgun Sabot Has the following Profile: S 10 AP1 Heavy 1, Piercing
Piercing- Any roll to wound or penetrate of a 6 will cause one and only one additional automatic wound or penetrating hit. Rolls to wound of a six ignore invulnerable saves. All vehicles are considered as opened topped when determining damage from Railgun hits(Or railguns get to always add +1 to their penetration rolls against any vehicle). Which do you like?


Please keep in mind that the Sabot shot is still being refined and toned down.


In my version the Vehicle secondary systems benefit from a weapons change and a new option.

First, the new option is the use of marker dones as a defensive weapons upgrade on the Hammerhead Battle Tanks and the Skyray Pathfinder transports.

Second, Gun drones are no longer an option for the Hammerhead. The HammerHead now gets to choose between the Redone SMS or Burstcannons.
The SMS is now combined with the missile pods that gives it a select fire mode:
Line of Sight-Range 36" S7 AP4 assault 2
SMS no LoS-Range 24" S4 AP5 assault 2 Blast

These stats are for each pod so double the rate of fire to assault 4 to represent both pods firing when on tanks or broadsides.

Burst cannons are now: Range 18" S5 AP5 Rending

The Devilfish transports come with gundrones but may be upgraded to marker drones or load any of the allowed drones from the squad taking it for their transports. They may also Take the new sms.

The SkyRays may take the same secondaries as the devilfish.



I'll let you wait another bit for the piahnas

Later

Photon Burst shell: Absolutely sick. you realise that unless immune to pinning if this was combined with my markerlight system you basically would have 1-2 pinned squads every turn, period?
Delicious.

I'm rather ambiguous on the -BS though, as its an easy one to 'forget' or 'add to' or the like... you know how those are.

Sabot: Hm... we've gone pretty similar here too. in my case, a successful damage has a 50% chance of causing the extra. in your case, its a flat 16.67% of hits, but penetrating (for vehicles). in mine it ranges from 41.6% of wounds (unless there's a T9/10 out there), to .25 of hits on AV14, but glance and doesn't ignore invulnerables.

Could mine be too common/easy? The two alternative methods for mine I'm considering:
1) just change it to a 5+ instead of 4+
2) make it roll twice (wound or pen) on a 5-6 to-hit.

I'd suggest removing the 'open topped' clause; twin AP1 penetrating is already a good chance of a boom.

your vehicle SMS; the 'killer drone launcher' in my case, we went different ways:

Killer Drone Launcher: A secondary weapon for hammerheads, a field-support primary for devilfish
36" S6 AP5 Assault 4
36" S6 AP5 Assault 2 Blast
Both ignore LoS: The onboard AIs decide in flight whether to spread the munitions across an area or to focus them in small clumps.

Burst Cannons: 24" S5 AP5 (shots still as normal). [edit: but they HAVE been defensive since the early drafts, that much never changed]. Perhaps I DON'T have enough rending, but I figure with the EMP and the Railguns....

I still have drones available to hammerheads meself, and the regular SMS is also available to hammerheads that want to skimp on points a bit.

The skyray being a two-variant set of upgrades, well, its not its own window in there anymore.

focusedfire wrote:Railgun Sabot Has the following Profile: S 10 AP1 Heavy 1, Piercing
Piercing- Any roll to wound or penetrate of a 6 will cause one and only one additional automatic wound or penetrating hit. Rolls to wound of a six ignore invulnerable saves. All vehicles are considered as opened topped when determining damage from Railgun hits(Or railguns get to always add +1 to their penetration rolls against any vehicle). Which do you like?

I would say count as open topped because being AP1 they always get +1 any way.

Nova wrote:Killer Drone Launcher: A secondary weapon for hammerheads, a field-support primary for devilfish
36" S6 AP5 Assault 4
36" S6 AP5 Assault 2 Blast
Both ignore LoS: The onboard AIs decide in flight whether to spread the munitions across an area or to focus them in small clumps.

Awesome

P.S. Can you send me a copy of your version of the codex please, I am very curious (besides 2 heads are better then 1). Send to

@ Nova- Feel free to use the Photon Burst Shell if you want.

The -2 BS was more for affecting Tanks. I had thought about it causing an auto crew shaken but quickly deemed that to powerful.
All in all the ability to pin and the minus to the BS seemed to fit the with the concept of a giant photon grenade. This is why I took it this direction.


The Sabot round I had toyed with making it piercing on a roll of 5+. Still leaning towards it a bit but the other alternatives make me want to be cautious.

The other alternatives I'm still playing with is:
1) Making the weapon have +1 penetration no matter the Target
2) Counts as pentetrating even when equaling armour value(EG.; A roll of 14 counts a penetrating versus a monolith or other 14 armor)
3) All vehicles treated as opened topped when assesing damage from railguns
4) Ignores all saves

It will be one of these options added to the above peicing profile.
I personally am leaning to the always get +1 pentration added to the total no matter what the target. Penetration Roll of a 1 still fails to do damage.


My secondary missile systems I went the way of established tech and giving the vehicles an actual defensive weapon.

The difference in ranges represent an aquired lock versus having to search for the target in flight.

The difference in profiles follows GW trend of direct focused impact versus area affect explosion. You combine this with the fact that our missile launchers fire two shots to most other armies single shots and you get why I felt the need to keep the weapon on the lower side when blasts were concerned.


Its no secret that I'm a fan of the Taros campain's long barreled burst cannons. Thats why they are going on the Devilfish standard. The Hammerhead secondary system ones may also become the long barreled Varients.

The rending is to make up for the lack of burst cannons seen in most Tau armies these days. It makes the standard ones weaker than an assault cannon but more of them are able to be on the field. I'm thinking standard Burst cannons on infantry and Long Barreled on vehicles. Broadsides and commanders might be able to take the long Barreled varieties.

I dropped the drones on the hammerheads because they can't carry passengers and drones would still be considered passengers.

I'm still tweeking the DevilFish secondary systems options. They may end up not getting to take the new SMS system and instead be limited to drones only. I don't feel like it will come to this because most will want to use the extra drones in the Fire warriors to make them more survivable. I do think that the Marker drones will be able to be purchased with the vehicle.

The Sky Ray is becoming the new Pathfinder Or Ethereal transport. I'm taking out of the Heavy Support Slot and am making it a transport instead. Doing such will probably force me to somewhat limit the secondaries to mission specific options by what the units are able to take.



Could you explain the, "its not its own window in there anymore" statement? I think I understand but want to make sure of your meaning.

With the hammerhead railgun, part of the challenge is making it powerful enough to be worth taking over broadsides for its solid shot when compared impact to impact. After some consideration I'm making blowthrough (yeah piercing's probably the better name) a 5+ affair on a hit, rather than damage. thus, hit, and d6 armour pen, as normal, plus an extra d6; if the extra's 5 or 6, bonus glance/wound even if the first pen or wound didn't get through (it punched through something too inconsequential before ripping out the good bits). Keeps things simpler too.

The old long-barrel bursts weren't BAD, but it was hard to justify halving the range of a submunition, for half the average hits (not counting the chance the submunition wouldn't show up, but that was back in 3rd)... not a primary tank gun by any means. Wasn't THAT much cheaper for the loss of power and versatility so... But yeah, atop a devilfish I could see it working quite well.

My own increased range version is to keep them dead cheap. Bursts count as defensive, and the extra 6" makes a sizable difference in stealth suit survivability. your method should work better for vehicles, though doesn't do much for the lack on suits.

Our missiles fire 2 to everyone else's 1's, in the case of the missile pods, sure. However, their own launchers tend to have 1 better S and AP, an extra foot of range, and an alternate blast mode.


on the window comment: er, game I run often ends up with jello shots mid-battle, so my vocabulary may have taken a hit. I meant slot, not window. Skyray (current oldschool version) is a devilfish field upgrade, although it lowers the number of available transport models to 6 (good for a pathfinder team though or an ethereal), while the hammerhead gravitic launcher is the newer, nastier version.

I kinda like the hammerhead drones. the thing in older editions was I kept my tanks away, to make use of their range and avoid retaliatory lascannons (all 20 of them on the damn board) as best I could. So burst cannons were pretty useless, though SMS+targetlock got handy. drones though? split off and go harass things, or force a bit of a melee, speedbumps in general, so they were well loved in that regard.

Nova-Not saying that I'm going to do this, its just something that makes me smile in a Donnie Darko kinda way.

Take the sms vehicle pods as I've redesigned them and put them on the Pirahnas. Been thinking of writing the Pirahnas to where they can take either a secondary weapons system or the drone troops but if one takes a secondary in place of the drone then all would have to do so.

Two squadrons- One 4 strong squadron transporting drone troops, the second 2-3 strong armed with the sms and ........



Not sure if we are talking about the same weapon on the long barreled burst cannon. The one Ive been thinking about is: S6 AP4 Assault 3 but I'm thinking of tweeking the burst cannons to better fit the army. Tell me what you think of these profiles:

Long Barreled Burst Cannon- Range 30" S 5 AP 5 Assault 4, Rending

Battlesuit Burst Cannon-Range 18" S 5 AP 5 Assault 4, Rending

I would consider the nose cannon as the Long barreled burst cannon on the devifish.

I think you would see a lot of these combined with plasma rifles on the Crisis suits.

Well back to work on the Fan-dex. Catch ya later.

Yeah we're definitely talking about the same burst cannon. I didn't import it, though then again, with 'these models are already made' clauses, I guess it might not hurt so much to do so for those forgeworld weapons...

As I pointed out it seems our contrast for the burst cannon is that you split light and heavies basically; one for the suits and one for the hammerhead. This much I actually agree with: I cut my larger bursts out at some point and that was probably a mistake. Current version in my case for both suit and vehicles, however, are 24/5/5/a3. I'm a little wary of full rending: tau mains are already pretty nasty against armour...

Burst Cannon (long) 24" S5 AP5 Assault 3
Burst Cannon (point blank) 18" S5 AP5 Assault 3 Rending

How's that feel? Basically vehicle versions are better stablised and if a bit closer than maximum range can really tear into the target. Or would losing 1 shot instead of 6" make more sense? Its something I'm seeing a lot of in my own weapon list; Variable RoF.
(this is for my dex we're talking: I can see where you're going with your version and it does suit the feel you seem to be going for)

What's the price on your bursts though? I know you're edging towards more expensive units, so I probably shouldn't be rethinking my own ideas too much from reading yours...

There has been a lot of talk about killing things. Most guns seem to be getting an upgrade. While that is all well and good, I'm sometimes wondering what the goal of some of these dexs truly are.

Keeping scoring units on objectives after turn 5, limiting KPs, or tabling your opponent by turn 3?

I'm seeing a lot of offense, but not much in the way of defense being talked about. This and that about marker systems, improved guns, and drones for killing stuff. But what is going to keep our stuff from running off of objectives, or getting more survivable scoring units.

I understand that a prolific offense can be a good defense (killing the guy before he can even get to you), but I'm wondering if that is such a fun game all around, or what will you do if you have to go chasing after an objective in their territory?

I'm not saying anything already mentioned is bad/overpowered/undercosted etc. But I'm not seeing much focus on anything above just blowing the other guy to hell.

Nova-The Long Barreled BC and Basic gun drones would be included in the price of the Devilfish for the same price as current. Upgrading to sw flamer or fusion drones for 20pts. Upgrade to marker drones for 30pts. If I allow it the sms pods upgrade for devilfish will be at 35pts for the vehicle system. This price reflects the 2 drones being sacrificed to gain the weapon.

The LBBCs on the Hammerhead will be about 30pts and the SMS pods will be 50pts for the systems. The hammerheads initial price without guns will be about 80pts. That already included the Targeting Array.

I'm looking at about 12 pts for the crisis suit burst cannons.


About your Fan-dex
Go with your gut on the burst cannons. I modelled my ranges of of the pulse rifle and carbines and my rate of fire came from there being four barrels. It seemed, to me, easy to justify to the players.

Go back to your markerlights and then think how you want each unit to support the others. Then go with what you know is right for your philosophical veiw of what the Tau should be.
I will say that I don't think dropping the RoF is going to be an easy sell to Tau players. I'd suggest fully exploring the concept of your own words"I'm seeing a lot in my own weapon list; Variable RoF." Explore all of the ways a Variable RoF can mean.

Hope that helps.

@Jayden-May I refer you to the guerilla tactics rule I'm using in this fan-dex. If this isn't enough then how about the Sheild drones and how they provide area protection.

I'm already pushing the edge with those two. Anything beyond would be pure Gouda and I don't want to be suddenly dealing with the lactose intolerant.

I think that I've done enough to keep the Tau on the table.

I have one or two little tricks left that I'm reserving for specials and Leadership or Pyschic Nulling.....Yes I said it

@Focusedfire: I decided to stick to my guns as you suggested; 24/5/5/A3 is what they'll remain as. its a good, solid defensive weapon, and there's no shame in mounting them at their cost.

Jayden: That's mostly because guns are what I'm reviewing for the most part when there's more input on here. "is this too powerful? too cheap? too expensive? any reason for someone to actually bother taking it?"

There's a little of everything really. But all the mentioned changes might be making it seem like the firepower changes are more extreme than they actually are? In my case at least (focused is heading towards a more expensive 'eldar' style path, so his are nastier on average, but won't be near as cheap) most changes are on weapons no one took because they were A) too expensive and/or B) too weak or short ranged or <insert reason here> for what they did. Burst cannons, the xv-15 (remember them?) assault weapon being a primary tank gun and not a defensive weapon, for example. or its short range making the stealth field deceptively weak for what its actually costing you, and so on.

Defensively, the directions Tau can go from the original dex are somewhat limited. They're already a carapace army, they've a fair amount of pinning (yeah as if THAT works) weaponry, and the (weaker than it was but still there) JSJ system. Not to mention stealth, shield drones and other extra-wounds wargear (that's what a gun drone is: an extra 1 wound model with a gun), transports, and perhaps most importantly of all for the race: range.

Objectives: Yes, a good part of my dex ideas apply quite directly to objectives. Most of these are minor changes, but a handful of minor changes make all the difference sometimes. Lot of the ability to stay on objectives is from being a little cheaper (and thus can be fielded a little more)

Fire Warriors: A slight improvement in the guns, and the auto-inclusion (sure you pay for it but 'the leader comes with the team') seems to be a more common theme in 5th edition instead of "oh you can promote one to team leader" for troops. Having a few carbines automatically means you have photon grenades, but in their specific case a lot of the survivability and ability to stay on objectives comes from the fact that there'll be a handful less models assaulting them. They're marginally cheaper, but not to the level of guardsmen, who are a full 2/3 of their old cost AND get grenades atop that for free.

Kroot: Minimal changes. Updated to be move-through-cover instead of fieldcraft, and krootox are a bit cheaper so people will actually consider taking them: the kroot rifle's second shot is at 24" now. Shaper's a bit cheaper; 28 points for a normal kroot was just plain ridiculous. Now a base squad of shaper+9 kroot is 80 points.

Gun Drones are resilient little buggers, but if taken under 4 models they won't be scoring anymore. Until then they're cheap, can always regroup (even under 4 that is), and benefit a little less from markerlights. Jetpacks are superb for getting TO the objective, so if its in their territory you want it... what better troop to send than a deepstriker? I even had to bump their cost up.

KPs: Are the dumbest abomination of a bad excuse for a VP replacement I ever had the nausea to encounter. Whoever came up with that needs to be fired either for incompetance or extreme bias: Either that(or those) person(people) never played the game and shouldn't be involved in changing its ruleset, or play one of those armies that can field 1500 points in under 6 kill points without blowing off their own foot in actual effectiveness. Like Wazdakka... So yeah, several changes are, just as they've done in the IG codex, a weak (just like with the ig codex) attempt at reducing how many kp armies are worth. I mean, unless of course you're one of those that thinks it perfectly reasonable two vehicle gun drones are worth as much if killed as a full assault terminator squad costing over 25 times as much, or that killing all but one model of a 2000pt army is a crushing defeat for you, because that means you wiped 7 of his 8 kp while he took out a third of your army: a massive 9.

Tabling the opponent? not bloody likely. not my changes at least: most of them I'm honestly worried won't be enough (some of those 'upgrades' aren't cheap after all) to deal with mr 6 russ and 3 manricores over there.

The big problem with defensive options (I'll list my main defense ups at the end) is that tau are still not supposed to be much good at close combat. This is HUGE. you can't just burst into melee to tie up that giant squad for a turn or two; you get demolished and they get to fire on their turn. you can't just upgrade armour to 3+ they're not marines. And proportionally everyone's gained a lot of cover. But the tau had already most of the defenses they can reasonably have; its that all of a sudden the prices and defenses for what they can output has dropped for others.

Tau defenses (pre-existing)
JSJ
Stealth Field Generators
Ethereals (morale. yes, I know they're crap)
going Mech (nothing others can't do here)
Drones (additonal wounds with guns to boot)
Cover (everyone has tons of it now)

Tau defenses I've changed/added
Stealth Field: changes minimal here; mostly I clarified some situations, and -2 to the die roll in night fight (so still one of the weaker though most numerous stealth fields around) but since burst cannons got an extra 6" that's a big boost to them from 'a better gun'.
Ethereals: I made them not suck. This should make them worth buying.
Drones: Slightly better at close protection: a few new models or clarifications, and I gave shield drones a VERY special ability: after wounds are assigned, but before rolling saves, ONE wound per unit/model may be moved onto a shield drone (multiple drones don't stack this but since the drones pop more often it means you can keep doing it a little longer if you have more than one).
Drones that have lost their controllers may be banded together with a special issue system, but otherwise have default orders: Gun and Marker drones will get a single final shooting phase of double RoF and then escape as casualties: they expend their ammo and return to base. Shield drones automatically attach to a different unit if within 6", otherwise they also leave.
Deflector Drones: Special issue, big wide drones that allow rerolls of failed saves to the unit they protect. However they have to have the strongest wound assigned to them first (ie; if 5 bolters and a krak, guess who you have to give the krak save-or-die to). Ethereals can have one outside of the special issue!

Hammerhead rear armour is 11. that's a HUGE change. really huge.

Nova wrote:
Drones: Slightly better at close protection: a few new models or clarifications, and I gave shield drones a VERY special ability: after wounds are assigned, but before rolling saves, ONE wound per unit/model may be moved onto a shield drone (multiple drones don't stack this but since the drones pop more often it means you can keep doing it a little longer if you have more than one).

Hammerhead rear armour is 11. that's a HUGE change. really huge.

On this drone ability, clarification is needed.

Lets say you have 6 firewarriors and 2 shield drones. That unit takes 3 wounds. Two from bolters, one from a heavy bolter.
Normal 5th ed wound allocation says you can...
A) Put two wounds onto the shield drones and 1 onto the firewarriors.
B) You can put all three onto the firewarriors.

In your rules under option A, can you move the one wound from the firewarrior and give it to the shield drone? Thus making one shield drone take 1 save while the other has to take 2 (BTW this is illegal according to normal wound allocation rules in 5th ed.)

Option B is a little more straight forward as you just move two of the wounds from the firewarriors to each of the shield drones. But in reality this is no different than just normal wound allocation for units with different weapon loadouts.


As for the hammerhead, I took it one step further. All Tau vehicles have rear armor equal to their side armor.

I suppose its only fair that I throw out some of my own ideas that I've been working on. Maybe some are good, some might be bad. Lets see.

HQs -
Commander is still +1, same options as in current codex. New ability = You da man.
You da man = Nominate one non vehicle Tau unit. That unit becomes scoring.

Etherial - same stats, changed Inspring presence back to what it was in the first codex. Tau units may choose to reroll any made or failed moral checks. May take 1 Naascar advisor, may take 10 firewarrior honor guard.

Naascar - psycher from a few pages ago.

Shadowsun - Pretty much the same but stealth teams are moved to troops and drone squadrons are moved to Elite.

Farsight - pretty much the same as now but any crisis teams taken count as scoring units.

Uber name etherial - Same as Eitherial, +1 LD to all Tau units on the table, if LOS to any non vehicle unit that unit is scoring.
Elites -
Crisis suits swap S and T. So now they are T5 S4. Squad size now 1-4
Stealth suits go up to T4. Drop by 8 points each.

Troops -
Firewarriors gain both photon and emp grenades for free. Free Shas'ui, bonding knife, and networked marker light at 12 models. New ability - Your gun is your life = When charged Firewarriors with pulserifles or carbines make a single shooting attack at the iniative = to the highest model charging. Devilfish gain rear armor 11.

Kroot - Kroot stay the same except gain move through cover and stealth USR (drop fieldcraft)
Kroot hounds = If hounds are taken the kroot mob has fleet of foot while a single hound is alive.
Kroot OX = Monsterious creature, S6, T6, A3. May take up to 5. Kroot hounds and Kroot ox may not be taken in the same squad.

Fast Attack -
Drone squadrons - Gun drones, marker drones, and sniper drones all make up this squad. Drones become fearless.

Vespid - unit size 6-12. Upgrade 1 in 3 to have template weapons S3, AP3. Gain rending HTH attacks. Gain new ability = Hive mind = When counting losses due to shooting count all vespid on the table to determine if 25% casulties.

Pirahna - Same as before, minor points drop.

Pathfinders - Get firewarrior treatment. Skyray is upgraded devilfish (no longer Hammerhead chasis) mandatory transport.

Heavy support
Hammerheads - Points drop, no change in weapon options. Gain rear armor 12. Submunition round now ignores cover.

Broadsides - Gain relentless, T5, S4.


gun changes.

Not much.
All fusion blasters change to fusion cannons and are S8 AP1 melta 24" range.
Burst cannons improve to 24" range and count as defensive weapons on vehicles.
SeekerMissles have two profiles. S8 AP3 or S6 ap 4 template (small end goes closest to firing model.)

Markerlights - Not much changed. Still heavy. but all markerlights hit on a 2+. Markerlights stay on target until end of turn or unless used to fire a seeker.

Drone support systems. Firewarriors, Pathfinders, Crisis suits, stealth suits, broadsides suits may take up to 4 support drones. These are shield drones, medi drones, marker drones. No drone controller needed (that piece of wargear doesn't exist anymore), they are just part of the squad as if they were another member of the team.

Anyway, thats obviously not all of it, I left off a lot of the details, but thats the basics. For more detailed information, send my a PM if interested.

It addresses several key issues.

1 - survivability - with the Naacars powers, combined with medidrones, they are resilant against shooting.
2 - HTH deterant. Tau gunlines will really benefit from having Kroot ox hanging around to crush would be HTH attackers.
3 - KPs - Still kinda high, but there are fewer extra KP just floating around by loose gun drones.
4 - Tankshock - Now that all firewarriors and pathfinders have EMP grenades, DOG against shocking vehicles is a pretty good option.
5 - TLOS - Increasing the T of the suits will help against instant death hits and negate some firepower coming their way through the cracks in the buildings.

I've read through this stuff and dislike a lot of the changes you guys are making. The Tau currently aren't as underpowered as you guys are making them out to be. Their issues is that their army isn't made for 5th edition objectives. They don't need power increases across the board for all their things. Stealthfields that give -2 to the night fight roll while bumping their gun up to 24"? Seriously? Sure there are better stealthfields out there (like harlequins), but those are on ASSAULT troops who are extremely fragile, which stealth suits are not. Sure they aren't extremely durable, but they still have a 3+ save and the bonus of not having to get extremely close. All they need is maybe a bump down to 25 points each, or free targetting arrays. JSJ never got nerfed, its the same it always has been. The only difference is in the way terrain works so JSJ is used more for mobility as opposed to LULZ its Crystal Targetting Matrix all over again! At least the targetting matrix needed two pieces of terrain...

As for bumps to defensive weapons and rear armor of tau vehicles, there is no justification for these buffs. The tau were hardly the only ones hurt by the defensive weapon nerf, and they still have multi-trackers to make up for it. Giving the vehicle mounted burst cannons longer range is a much better idea. My issue is that there should be a penalty for moving more than 6". With regards to the rear armor buff, do you really think tau vehicles deserve this? Looking at the IG, only the short-ranged line busting leman russes get it. Tanks that pretty much NEED it. They are also a lot more armored in general. Tau vehicles aren't meant to be heavy duty spearhead tanks, so why should they be fortified like one? Nearly everyone else's tanks are vulnerable to being assaulted by marines and frag grenades, why should the tau get special treatment?

Reading what you guys are writing, you are just buffing everything across the board. While the tau need to be bumped in power, they shouldn't have an answer for everything because no other army does either. All the tau need is point reduction for their troops and markerlights and a few buffs or point reductions to units that are currently underwhleming. I think making the burst cannon rending and giving long barreled burst cannons to vehicles are steps in the right directions, not changing defensive weapons rules or overpowering stealth fields.

@Jayden: According to the rules its also illegal for a unit to regroup under 50% strength. Do I need to name a certain extremely common ability gained from items or just "being a marine"? Its also illegal for a vehicle to fire ordnance after moving 12". Lumbering Behemoth or the "not a weapon so its okay" Monolith should come to mind. Fast Attack isn't scoring, but Wazdakka and Marine Captains make bikers (many or one) a scoring unit. That's illegal: they're not scoring. Except that there's a special rule stating they ARE, and it IS legal.
That's what special rules and special equipment are there to do: bend and break the base.

Yes, what I'm having the shield drone do is a bypass of standard wound allocation (you make it sound so evil, too). Here's how it works more precisely:
AFTER normal wound allocation is done; roll the shield drone saves (if any wounds were actually allocated there) first; if there's a surviving shield drone, ONE wound on a not-shield-drone model in the unit can (if you want) be moved to the drone: it got in between a protected model and incoming shots (this is shooting only as you can imagine). Now roll saves on the rest of the wounds, as if the wound had always been on that shield drone.
Yes, its VERY effective in some circumstances, and not all that much in others; but its a defensive ability, 1/incoming volley, and the drone's 20 points now. Its not dissimilar to what it was able to do in 3rd, which was arbitrarily removed with no explanation or change to the actual cost/value of the thing in 4th..

@Psycheout: This isn't for dealing with 4th edition armies, or 4th edition armies in the 5th edition rules. By these standards the new imperial guard takes a very large tree and rams it up a good couple of the armies. I've certainly had my rear handed to me by a nob bikerz and IG. Codex creep is alive and well.

Stealth Fields: Actually the Tau's are basically the only one that doesn't outright halve the distance or worse at night. Grey Knight ones aren't, but then ALL their units have this, and they instead aren't affected by night-fight-piercing abilities, and barrages double their scatter instead of adding a single d6. One of the problems with 5th edition is that with TLOS all of a sudden the stealth field's average range when someone tries to shoot you is around 16 inches if you jumped back. Which is in the 'very easy to spot' region.
Bumping the units down in price IS an upgrade. A significant one. I make them more expensive instead. Just like making them slightly more survivable instead is too. But making them slightly more survivable doesn't increase their firepower, which making them cheaper would do (more wounds and shots coming out).

JSJ did take a hit: whether you consider it a proper one (I think so too, doesn't mean I have to like it) or not doesn't matter: you were PAYING for that ability, and its not the same anymore. Just making it cheaper doesn't have to be "the only fix". In fact it can overpower things more than you seem to realise.

Bumps to defensive weapons (all one of it) has large justification: the codex was written back when heavy bolters, multilasers, and other such weapons were defensive. There's no reason, nor excuse, for the burst cannon to be on a vehicle if it isn't a defensive weapon. But by the "S4 or lower that's it nothing else matters" rule change, the pulse PISTOL is a primary, not defensive, weapon.

For rear armour on one tank? There's plenty even if we keep real life considerations out of it. Things like krak grenades are more common now, and melee hits them in the rear automatically except for all the walkers. Demolishers have it, Land Raiders and Monoliths have far more, Drop Pods have 12, most walkers are functionally 11 or more unless *shot* from the back, and that "5 points for the whole squad" krak grenade (let's not even talk meltas) still lets them waste it instantly as soon as they get close enough. It pays for it. That's all it has to do. Everyone's magically striking your rear, you adapt, and improve your defenses. Technically that's an abstraction of them getting onto/into weaker points and dumping their charges in the joints, engines, etc, well, surprise, so's improving one's vehicles to counter that.

You're right tau weren't the only ones hurt by this; but the 5th ed codices so far compensate either with improvements or points across the board: IG have a good 20+% more points left over with the same army they used to field before, and FoC worries have all but vaporised for their armour. Burst cannons defensive and one point of armour on one flank of one vehicle isn't all that terrible: as long as one has to pay for it in points there's no real argument against it.

An S4 Rending burst cannon would actually be MORE powerful than S5 defensive. It would tear through more models, more vehicles, being able to harm things the 5 can't way more easily (by, say, negating regular armour save on that carnifex if it rolls a 6, which the S5 version already needs to do without negating that save). When changing anything you have to look at what that change actually MEANS to the model and army's performance. Rending and extra shots is a much larger change than just 6" of range.

Many weapons and models in the tau, either thanks to bad wording or terrible design flaws, were not just "not worth taking", but actively shooting yourself in the foot. Vespid and Ethereals for example. Most of the changes are there for that. Rail Rifles because of their FoC positions/eating. Marker Drones. Even the hammerhead railgun: in 5th ed the cost of that thing compared to what artillery 3/4 its price or cheaper, and squadronable, can do. That Medusa siege cannon (36" will cover most of the board if you place it right) is 10 in a large blast, compared to the railgun that only gets that strong in single-target, single-shot mode.

Yes, the 5th ed changes also took their toll. YES, they take their toll on most armies to varying degrees. But all the other armies are getting their fixes slowly, or similar threads/codices to this, so why would the Tau be the only ones left behind?