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What makes grot tanks so much better than kans? They have the 5+ save, sure, but the kans have armour 11 for the front and sides, which makes them immune to str 4 and twice as survivable to str 5. Grot tanks are a bit cheaper but lose the close combat and they have the random movement which can be a problem.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
What got me in the Nerf department was Kans.

I don't necessarily mind the price increase or the nerf to their melee weapon (it is still AP2).

But I find it odd Cowardly Grots is still in affect even if there is a Stompa nearby.

You should see Community Comp, they penalize Kan spam more than anything else in the Ork dex, even though Kans are gak.

I just run Grot tanks instead. Cheaper, 5+ invuln instead of newly crappified kan klaw (DCCW on crappy chassis was cool, fluffy, and encouraged tactical use of the kans!), no cowardly grots at least until IA8-2E, and easier to scratch build from toy tank chassis (just made six of them)

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Given how rapidly they're updating the codexes, it might not actually be that long until we get a new book, and until then we've always got the IA: 8 update which might bring some cool stuff.

But I think we all were at least a little disappointed with the new book, especially compared to the Eldar and Necron books. External balance aside, both are extremely well internally balanced, with very few dud options.

I wish we had a codex like that...

Forgeworld has never done us Orks wrong. However, they won't make it Necron tier, they'll make it a solid middle tier "fair" army. And very importantly they remove the troop-biker effect from that bikerboss. My new bikers will take about 2 weeks to assemble so I'd say you have about that long before they get nerfed into oblivion...

Speaking of Grot Tanks the Waaagh! Ghazghkull "Great Waaagh! Detachment appears to favor those as you have 5 Elites slots what you can fill with Grot Tanks if you wished.

Wow, thats a good idea. Was pretty annoyed that they took what is IMO the worst Ork slot and gave us extras. I plan on running so many grot tanks and need a way to get them into the Force Org so this will be very nice

Hard to call elites bad when there are tankbustas in there. Manz and kommandoes are fine too.

 koooaei wrote:
Hard to call elites bad when there are tankbustas in there. Manz and kommandoes are fine too.

Indeed, the only real duds in the Orks Elites slot would arguably be Nobz and Burna Boyz. And at least the Burna Boyz have a niche role in being repair support units in transport walkers like the Stompa or Morka/Gorkanaut.

people keep mentioning the IA:8 update, is this some sort of rumour? or date? Or just wishes?

I actually am thinking burna boyz in warkoptas, spanna boyz in the front one with shootas. Cheap burna skimmers. But have yet to try it.

Solar Shock wrote:
people keep mentioning the IA:8 update, is this some sort of rumour? or date? Or just wishes?

I actually am thinking burna boyz in warkoptas, spanna boyz in the front one with shootas. Cheap burna skimmers. But have yet to try it.

It mainly comes from the fact that FW have been slowly updating their older Imperial Armour Books to second editions to make up for the large changes with the release of 6th-7th ed. After Vraks the next one in line appears to be IA8 and noticeably if you look on the FW website it doesn't have it for sale either. We don't know when it will happen, but chances are it'll be after their next big obligatory Horus Heresy release.

So I'm going to a 1500 point tournament soon - what sort of army would you consider the most competitive?

I think the options are:
1) Zhadsnark + Bikes
2) GreenTide
3) Walker Wall
4) Speed Freakz (trukk boyz and co)
5) Other?

Not a fan of deffstar units, I much prefer MSU (even though Orks aren't really an MSU army..)

 Dakkamite wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
What got me in the Nerf department was Kans.

I don't necessarily mind the price increase or the nerf to their melee weapon (it is still AP2).

But I find it odd Cowardly Grots is still in affect even if there is a Stompa nearby.

You should see Community Comp, they penalize Kan spam more than anything else in the Ork dex, even though Kans are gak.

I just run Grot tanks instead. Cheaper, 5+ invuln instead of newly crappified kan klaw (DCCW on crappy chassis was cool, fluffy, and encouraged tactical use of the kans!), no cowardly grots at least until IA8-2E, and easier to scratch build from toy tank chassis (just made six of them)

 Dr. Delorean wrote:


Given how rapidly they're updating the codexes, it might not actually be that long until we get a new book, and until then we've always got the IA: 8 update which might bring some cool stuff.

But I think we all were at least a little disappointed with the new book, especially compared to the Eldar and Necron books. External balance aside, both are extremely well internally balanced, with very few dud options.

I wish we had a codex like that...

Forgeworld has never done us Orks wrong. However, they won't make it Necron tier, they'll make it a solid middle tier "fair" army. And very importantly they remove the troop-biker effect from that bikerboss. My new bikers will take about 2 weeks to assemble so I'd say you have about that long before they get nerfed into oblivion...

Speaking of Grot Tanks the Waaagh! Ghazghkull "Great Waaagh! Detachment appears to favor those as you have 5 Elites slots what you can fill with Grot Tanks if you wished.

Wow, thats a good idea. Was pretty annoyed that they took what is IMO the worst Ork slot and gave us extras. I plan on running so many grot tanks and need a way to get them into the Force Org so this will be very nice

Well Kans still have their purposes.

I can see maybe (and I stress that) why they nerfed the DCCW as Kans are expendable so they aren't supposed to perform exactly like a true Dreadnought in close combat.

Cowardly Grots I do not see the purpose off however.

That being said whatever Kans wound in combat gets no Armor Save of any kind and anything they pen faces a chance of being blown up if a 6 is rolled.


But now Kans only seem useful if you are running mass Walkers or a mob of them.



As for Elites the Elites section is pretty good. I've seen some sum it up as:

Mega Nobz > Tank Bustas > Burna Boyz > Kommandos > Nobz

Also you get two more things that can be used in Elites from Imperial Armour 8 which are

Mekboy Junka > Grot Tanks (if you army includes a Big Mek).


Since Big Trakks can still be squadroned you could make a pretty interesting Ork Tank force backed up with Bikes and Infantry with the Waaagh! Ghazghkull "Great Waaagh" FOC.


That is:

> HQ: (Zhadsnark)

> Elites: Grot Tanks and a Junka or two which can take Kustom Force Fields and whatever else you wish from Elites

> Troops: (Bikers as Troops due to Zhadnsnark's Warlord trait)

> Fast Attack: Grot Mega Tank (can take one of these as Fast Attack if you have at least 1 Grot Tank Mob) or Deff Koptas or Warkoptas if you have any Infantry.

> Heavy Support: Big Trakks with Supa Kannons (and additional weaponry that might be snapfiring if the Kannons are Ordinance).

> (Optional) Lord of War: Kill Tank (The Krusha variant is a "Fast" Super-Heavy Tank) or Skull HammaBattle Fortress (this was a Fast Super Heavy Tank but I don't know if it still is or not) or a Kustom Battle Fortress (Open Topped and has a transport capacity of 30).


I don't know how effective or competitive any force like this would be however.

It would also probably be expensive points wise.

 koooaei wrote:
Hard to call elites bad when there are tankbustas in there. Manz and kommandoes are fine too.

Didn't call them bad, just the worst slot. In all honesty thats probably troops now, fething mob rule.

I can't see myself ever using MANz outside of the bully boyz ever again, need to be convinced of kommandos and hope I never am seeing as I gave away a crapload of them when I bailed at the start of 7th.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So I'm going to a 1500 point tournament soon - what sort of army would you consider the most competitive?

I think the options are:
1) Zhadsnark + Bikes
2) GreenTide
3) Walker Wall
4) Speed Freakz (trukk boyz and co)
5) Other?

Not a fan of deffstar units, I much prefer MSU (even though Orks aren't really an MSU army..)

Go Zhad, because I honestly think his days are numbered and you should use him while you can - IA8 2nd edition will likely take away his troop bikers, the same way we lost troop nobs etc.

Re; above post its worth pointing out that the latest iteration of the big trakk rules dropped the squadrons, so if you want to spam tanks in a single force org you want to run gun wagons which haven't seen the same update (another "will disappear in IA8-2e")

 Frozocrone wrote:
So I'm going to a 1500 point tournament soon - what sort of army would you consider the most competitive?

I think the options are:
1) Zhadsnark + Bikes
2) GreenTide
3) Walker Wall
4) Speed Freakz (trukk boyz and co)
5) Other?

Not a fan of deffstar units, I much prefer MSU (even though Orks aren't really an MSU army..)

Zhadsnark + Bikes can pack a serious punch.

 Frozocrone wrote:

3) Walker Wall
4) Speed Freakz (trukk boyz and co)

I don't think these two are very viable options currently.

Walker wall is slow, and very Rock-Paper-Scissors. Lots of armies have the tools to deal with them.

Trukks are a deathtrap for non-upgraded boyz, and 'ard boyz are too expensive to MSU. That isn't saying that Ork Mek is dead. Just that Trukks aren't great for msu boyz. You can win a game with them, but the high degree of randomness means it is hard to win a series of games with them. If you want to run a Trukk list, you can probably make it work, but you have to focus on dictating your opponent target priority. MANZ missiles, Warbikers, Stormboyz. Things like that.

They are updating codex's fast, but it was 7 years between the last 2 ork codex's. I wouldnt hold my breath that we get a new book any time soon. All the formations in the Red waaagh books and codex ghazzghull use the ork codex. That's 5 books that will have to be changed/made null if they update the ork codex.

I say 2 years min before we see a new ork book. I hope im.wrong , but orks are not important to GW it seems (we still have the gorka morka warbuggy). We will get a new IA8 before a new ork codex.

So we have to make use of what we got for a while. I wouldn't worry to much about things changing to much for orks GW or Forgeworld.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My walker list does well, you just can't go nuts with dredds, kanz and naughts.

You need boyz to help protect them and keep melta weapons away from melta range.

Also 2 or 3 KFF ' S are a must.

Speaking of Walkers and Kustom Force Fields, could you just use Morkanauts as your Kustom Force Fields given they will probably be in the vicinity of the other Walkers ?

Also could you surround them with Shoota Boyz and Tank Bustas for support ?

I run additionally kff in boyz mobs with the morkanaught. If a lucky shot takes out the morkanaught, you lose your kff.

Extra big mek or two gives more kff coverage so you can spread out more.

But yes , need boyz to surround the morkanaught. I always hold mine back behind shoota boyz.

It seems like the Big Meks would be easier to kill than a Walker with a Kustom Force Field.

It's the opposite. With current mechanics it's MUCH easier to kill a stand-alone walker rather than a fleshy dude with 6+ armor hidden within a bunch of other dudes with 6+ armor. Just think bout it. A kff naught is ~300 pt. That's a KFF mek + 30 boyz with a pk nob. A naught can and probably will go down to a bunch of gravguns or melta or d-cannons. There's no single weapon that can take 30 boyz in one go if you spread out even a little bit.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
It seems like the Big Meks would be easier to kill than a Walker with a Kustom Force Field.

I've got a list where my MA KFF Mek is embedded in a 5 Strong Mek Gun Unit with Max Grots and PainBoy. Way harder to get rid of that than a possible one-shot Morkanaut.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
It seems like the Big Meks would be easier to kill than a Walker with a Kustom Force Field.

Not necessarily, unlike the towering Morkanaut he can be easily hidden within a unit or behind terrain/large models especially with a Dread Mob where the KFF Big Mek can advance behind the walkers with a unit of boyz. He also has greater survivability in close combat from being able to refuse challenges and through the judicious use of LoS!

I like my mega big mek with a kff and lukky stikk. Stick him in with a mob of 20 Spanner boyz with a pain boss. He protects the 3 deff dredds in ront of the spanner boyz.

 koooaei wrote:
It's the opposite. With current mechanics it's MUCH easier to kill a stand-alone walker rather than a fleshy dude with 6+ armor hidden within a bunch of other dudes with 6+ armor. Just think bout it. A kff naught is ~300 pt. That's a KFF mek + 30 boyz with a pk nob. A naught can and probably will go down to a bunch of gravguns or melta or d-cannons. There's no single weapon that can take 30 boyz in one go if you spread out even a little bit.

If you spread the boyz in any meaningful way they'll use up the entire 6" KFF bubble IME

 Dakkamite wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
It's the opposite. With current mechanics it's MUCH easier to kill a stand-alone walker rather than a fleshy dude with 6+ armor hidden within a bunch of other dudes with 6+ armor. Just think bout it. A kff naught is ~300 pt. That's a KFF mek + 30 boyz with a pk nob. A naught can and probably will go down to a bunch of gravguns or melta or d-cannons. There's no single weapon that can take 30 boyz in one go if you spread out even a little bit.

If you spread the boyz in any meaningful way they'll use up the entire 6" KFF bubble IME

Not to mention clumping things closer together makes it easier to hit them all.

Also the only way I'd see the Big Mek being able to keep up with the Walker is if hes on a Bike, which would mean he'd have to be with other Warbikers (or deffkoptas), which can get expensive points wise.

Good news, everyone! I recently won a local 40k tournament, using my Orks!

All is not lost, apparently.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
It's the opposite. With current mechanics it's MUCH easier to kill a stand-alone walker rather than a fleshy dude with 6+ armor hidden within a bunch of other dudes with 6+ armor. Just think bout it. A kff naught is ~300 pt. That's a KFF mek + 30 boyz with a pk nob. A naught can and probably will go down to a bunch of gravguns or melta or d-cannons. There's no single weapon that can take 30 boyz in one go if you spread out even a little bit.

If you spread the boyz in any meaningful way they'll use up the entire 6" KFF bubble IME

Not to mention clumping things closer together makes it easier to hit them all.

Also the only way I'd see the Big Mek being able to keep up with the Walker is if hes on a Bike, which would mean he'd have to be with other Warbikers (or deffkoptas), which can get expensive points wise.

What do you mean keep up with the walkers? They're the same speed as a footslogging mek.

Noone's forcing you to spread out when it's not needed. Besides, you can keep your front row tight to cover more with kff and back rows spread out to mitigate blast damage.

Anywayz, from my experience, ork infantry is way more durable than ork vehicles. The only exception is when your enemy spams dedicated anti-infantry weaponry like so many wiverns, you can't reliably shut down enough of them to make it matter. But that'd be list tailoring. Haven't seen a lot of lists fully dedicated to anti-infantry. Have seen lots of lists fully dedicated to anti-vehicle and anti-mc.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Good news, everyone! I recently won a local 40k tournament, using my Orks!

All is not lost, apparently.

Details you git! Can we see your list? Also Congrats!

 Glitcha wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Good news, everyone! I recently won a local 40k tournament, using my Orks!

All is not lost, apparently.

Details you git! Can we see your list? Also Congrats!

Like yeah, totally what he said ^^

Glitcha wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Good news, everyone! I recently won a local 40k tournament, using my Orks!

All is not lost, apparently.

Details you git! Can we see your list? Also Congrats!

PipeAlley wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
Good news, everyone! I recently won a local 40k tournament, using my Orks!

All is not lost, apparently.

Details you git! Can we see your list? Also Congrats!

Like yeah, totally what he said ^^

Alrighty then!

It was a 1500pt tournament, had 16 players, I think about 1/3rd of them were some variant of Eldar.

I took a list (roughly speaking) comprised of the Bully Boyz formation in battlewagons, a Warboss in mega armour with the Finkin' Kap and the Lucky Stikk, a unit of 9 bikers (with the compulsory Nob w. Bosspole), and 2 units of mek gunz (one with 3 kannonz, one with 2 KMKs)

So some preliminary notes: obviously the above is unbound, and the TO had already ruled that Ork characters could take multiple relics. I was trying for the poor man's Blitz Brigade I mentioned a few pages back, basically with 2 rolls on the Strategic warlord trait table you've got a decent chance of rolling up result 3. I got result 3 in two out of my three games, so that was pretty good.

My first round was against Wraith Host Eldar, which consisted of 3 relatively large units of wraithguard, a wraithknight with shuriken cannons and the D-sword, and a wraithlord with a couple of eldar missile launchers.

My second round was against Scatbike Eldar, He had 3 big units of Eldar bikes all with scatter lasers (the player had bought the models the previous week just for the tournament), plus that guardian battlehost thing.

My third round was against a hilarious Super Sentai/Power Rangers themed Tau army consisting of 5 Riptides, painted red, blue, green, yellow, and pink.

The first game was actually pretty easy - I was expecting to have trouble with the Wraithknight, but a unit of Meganobz tore it apart in CC with little difficulty. Things might've been different if I hadn't gotten the charge, but he jumped it forward in his first turn rather aggressively, so I took my chance. I also limited the Wraithguard's Overwatch effectiveness via cunning positioning of Battlewagons to limit the number of Wraithguard that could see (and thus shoot) my meganobz, and the bikers absorbed a tonne of firepower with a 2+ cover save in the first turn (My second warlord trait was the one that made it night fighting on the first turn) and a 3+ in subsequent turns. Having to jink doesn't affect their ability to charge, after all.

My second game was a little harder, I managed to tie up one of the three units of bikes early with my own bikes, but the other two were hard to catch. Eventually I realized that my meganobz didn't really care much about shots without decent ap, so I parked them on some objectives with limited line of sight and planted the battlewagons next to them. The battlewagons naturally got torn up by the firepower, but since they were just wrecked and didn't explode, they made a solid bunker wall for the nobz to hide behind. It was definitely an objective-grab game though, rather than one I could've won by playing aggressively. The kannonz reaped a bloody toll on the guardians though.

My third game was both the silliest and the hardest. That much str 8 ap 2 firepower jumping around the board was really scary, and one of the meganobz units was taken out early through concentrated fire. I managed to pull through though, thankfully the battlewagons had boarding planks, that coupled with the 'Ere We Go rule meant that I pulled off a couple of unexpectedly long charges that caught and summarily killed 3 of the riptides, the bikers caught and killed a fourth, and the fifth had been reduced to 2 wounds and retreated to a back corner objective to hide.

I should mention that both me and the Riptide Power Ranger player had been drawn in the night before because the TO didn't have enough players, and we were told to just bring stupid/fun lists and give it our best, but I ended up coming first and he came second.

Also, I should've had a fourth game against a Chaos Daemons player, but after he lost his first game he threw the proverbial rattle out the pram, packed his stuff up and left.

That's awesome! I'm glad to hear that you had a good time. The list is pretty awesome. Glad the TO allowed you to take more than 1 relic. Personally, I think that is the way it should be and GW just needs to FAQ our book for it.

 Dr. Delorean wrote:
I also limited the Wraithguard's Overwatch effectiveness via cunning positioning of Battlewagons to limit the number of Wraithguard that could see (and thus shoot) my meganobz

if those were scithe guards, wall of death doesn't need los or range to kill stuff.

Anywayz, good to hear you did great! I believe orks can be fine if you play to the mission and utilise our strong sides like numerical advantage, and decent threat rate up close.

I thought we can't have the lukky stikk and Finkin cap on same hq.....

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I thought we can't have the lukky stikk and Finkin cap on same hq.....

He specifically said the TO allowed multiple relics on one character...