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 martin74 wrote:
I have suggest things earlier, but after playing in a tournament yesturday, we need a small piece of gear available to every vehicle.

Back in 5th ed., the Hydra had a piece of wargear that negated the saves of some skimmers and such, cant remember the word exactly. I played against the Ravenwing formation. Really, 2/3+ re-rollable jink saves. In the first round of shooting, I took out one bike. Now that was Pask (punisher gun boat) w/ Exterminator (las cannon, heavy bolters), 3 chimera, 4 plasma guns, 2 melta guns, Knight with thermal cannon, heavy stubber. 2nd turn, bring in the melta storm troop squad, plasma storm troop squad, vendetta, and scout sentinels (3 w/ auto cannons), removed two more bikes.

We need a piece of gear to negate re-roll jink saves or similar. I now know that in the face of the formations, the IG/AM codex is under powered.

Yeah we really need something to deny the enemy cover saves, maybe a -1 modifier if a LR squadron or 50 guardsmen combined into a blob could be a bonus, or even just give us some formations which gives modifiers to enemies cover save as part of running that formation?

FoMT gives ignore's cover to the entire unit, and the Eradicator has ignores cover by default. The Hellhound and the Banewolf are also ignores cover.

IG already have tools for countering cover-heavy armies. They just need some tweaking to be more useful (i.e. hellhounds and their variants need to either get AV13 front armor or drop to about 100 points).

The Hydra autocannon should be ignore's cover though, I agree. It having skyfire (meaning snapshots against ground targets) would balance that out.

And if you ever need to really give the finger to cover-loving armies, take a Hellhammer. What with a 7" blast, Str 10 Ap1 Ignores cover main cannon, and the ability to run over infantry units with impunity.

Perhaps it's a bit of vague statement but I actually hope GW will take some inspiration from how contemporary military forces fight when they will design the IG Codex, like doctrines, special rules, etc. Also should they release a new guardsmen kit I hope they can be posed more like real life soldiers rather than the static, cramped poses that come with the current cadian/catachan kit, heck most of forgeworld elysians are posed quite realistic for plastic models.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
FoMT gives ignore's cover to the entire unit, and the Eradicator has ignores cover by default. The Hellhound and the Banewolf are also ignores cover.

IG already have tools for countering cover-heavy armies. They just need some tweaking to be more useful (i.e. hellhounds and their variants need to either get AV13 front armor or drop to about 100 points).

The Hydra autocannon should be ignore's cover though, I agree. It having skyfire (meaning snapshots against ground targets) would balance that out.

Nah, no "Ignores Cover". It has Skyfire now and is useless.

The Hydra Autocannon should be the following profile:
Twin-Linked Hydra Autocannon Range: 72" Strength: 7 AP: 4 Heavy 8
Special Rules: Skyfire, Interceptor, Servotracker, Withering Fire, Twin-Linked.
Servotracker: If a shot from a Hydra Autocannon successfully Glances or Penetrates an enemy Flyer or Skimmer moving Flat-Out, then the Flyer or Skimmer cannot make an attempt at a Jink save this turn. If a shot from a Hydra Autocannon successfully Wounds an enemy Flying Monstrous or Gargantuan Creature utilizing their flight modes, they cannot make a Jink save.

Withering Fire: When firing at ground targets, this weapon snapshots at BS2 if it has not moved.

Mechanically, I don't really see how servotracker is enough of a departure from ignore's cover to not just say that it has ignore's cover instead.

Withering fire and interceptor are good additions though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Mechanically, I don't really see how servotracker is enough of a departure from ignore's cover to not just say that it has ignore's cover instead.

Withering fire and interceptor are good additions though.

Honestly, the big reason why?

To avoid the trap of "Ignores Cover equals No Jink save" logic. By putting in a rule specific to negating Jink saves, the necessity of "Well X needs Ignore Cover, because it's meant to deal with Jinking units!" and when we get the next edition, we can remove that one piece of text in Jink:

"If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ cover save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

becomes

"If the unit Jinks, all models in the unit with this special rule gain a 4+ save until the start of their next Movement phase, but they can only fire Snap Shots until the end of their next turn."

And Seer Councils/Librarian Conclave on bikes suddenly see a huge nerf as #4 in Telepathy becomes far, far less useful to them.

While we're at it, we throw Jetbikes into the Skyfire list as well.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also: It's basically what the "Auto-Targeting System" did in the previous Guard book for Hydras.

 Robbert Ambrose wrote:
Perhaps it's a bit of vague statement but I actually hope GW will take some inspiration from how contemporary military forces fight when they will design the IG Codex, like doctrines, special rules, etc.

Real military tactics wouldn't translate well onto the tabletop

-No man left behind rule: Upon any infantry model suffering a single wound, all infantry are to hold positions and may not fire unless in overwatch. They cannot move or shoot until a medical valkyrie arrives from reserve to collect the single injured Guardsmen and has left the board.

Thats a great idea, +1 i would love to see company command aquad is one officer and 4 ogryns. That would be a great option, especially if ogryns have grav guns

 sumi808 wrote:
Thats a great idea, +1 i would love to see company command aquad is one officer and 4 ogryns. That would be a great option, especially if ogryns have grav guns

No grav. Grav is supposed to be rare as all get-out, and it should be an exclusive to Astartes/Mechanicus thing.

Ripper Guns should get Fleshbane or Shred.
Bullgryn Grenadier Gauntlets should be able to be used for Overwatch.

Originally in 3rd n 4th according to fluff plasma was a rare tech from dark age and we forgot how to make it.

The rules and fluff change all the time to move more sales. It would be fun to see this on ogryns

But then again my pov is just one amoungst tens of thousands.

No need to put Grav guns in the Imperial Guard army when you can easily ally in Grav Guns/Cannons from either Space Marines or Mechanicum.

 gmaleron wrote:
No need to put Grav guns in the Imperial Guard army when you can easily ally in Grav Guns/Cannons from either Space Marines or Mechanicum.

I use drop pod BT by min/maxing crusader squads



This allows me to drop two units of grav spam on T1. Probably kill a Riptide or something.

 Selym wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
No need to put Grav guns in the Imperial Guard army when you can easily ally in Grav Guns/Cannons from either Space Marines or Mechanicum.

I use drop pod BT by min/maxing crusader squads

Spoiler:

Chaplain [90 pts]

Crusaders w/Grav-Pistol, Grav-Gun, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod [170 pts]

Crusaders w/Grav-Pistol, Grav-Gun, Grav-Cannon, Drop Pod [170 pts]

Drop Pod [35 pts]

[Allied Total: 465 pts]

This allows me to drop two units of grav spam on T1. Probably kill a Riptide or something.

This is actually god damn genius, why have I never heard of anyone doing this before now?

Anyways, going back to Guard, I think Ogryns and Bullgryns need to see a massive price decrease. Many Necron units got price decreases, for Ogryns it would only be fair. Though TBH I think the only dexes that ever get fethed over harder than us are CSM and Orks so I'm not exactly counting on it happening. I would really like to see a price decrease for just about everything aside from Leman Russ variants.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Grav is supposed to be rare as all get-out

I think "supposed" is the key word there.

Certainly you wouldn't get the impression that it was in any way rare, looking at a lot of SM lists.

 TheSilo wrote:


HQ
- Bump priests to 35 points
- Enginseers can repair vehicles within 6", not base to base contact
- Lord Commissar drops to 50 points
- Commissars are 0-5, not 1 per PCS/CCS. It's For Your Own Good resolves before the perils of the warp (you lose the model but it doesn't harm the unit)

Troops
- HWS drop to 30 points and may purchase a vox, camo, snare mines
- SWS may take dedicated transports
- PCS gain the combined squads special rule (may join your blob squads)

Elites
- Wyrdvanes, when manifesting powers you may change one failed warp charge roll to a '6' so they're more reliably casting, but also suffering way more perils of the warp
- Scion Tempestors gain voice of command
- Ogryns of every type drop 5 points

Fast Attack:
- Cavalry grant +1 Toughness, rough riders gain WS4
- Hunterkiller and hellstrike missiles gain armorbane, lose ordnance
- Scout Sentinels increase cost by 5 points, gain camo netting
- Hellhound variants drop cost by 10 points

Heavy Support
- Deathstrike gains Strength D

All these I can heartily agree with. I'd also give ratlings AP4, and give the Scion Command Squads access to the Scion orders from their codex (that they can only give to Scion squads obviously).
I'd also ask for fromations and doctrines of some kind (maybe with large, customisable formations acting as doctrines, with formations where you can choose your specialisation (like "[race]fighters", "light infantry", "sharpshooters", "hardened fighters") and a few called "drop troops regiment", "recon regiment", "grenadiers regiment", "mecanised regiment", "artillery regiment" or something).

I would like to see ogryns get better.

1. Ripper guns gain fleshbane: It is a rapid fire shotgun.
2. Get a rule similar to 5th ed. furious charge. +1 to initiative and strength
3. Point reduction. They cost more than a basic terminator.

 martin74 wrote:
I would like to see ogryns get better.

1. Ripper guns gain fleshbane: It is a rapid fire shotgun.
2. Get a rule similar to 5th ed. furious charge. +1 to initiative and strength
3. Point reduction. They cost more than a basic terminator.

^This

I'd drop 'em to 20 points each, it's not like their toting TDA around.

Baneblades getting a drop by about 75 points per hull.

Everything else on them is good though.

#wishlisting

 martin74 wrote:
I would like to see ogryns get better.

1. Ripper guns gain fleshbane: It is a rapid fire shotgun.
2. Get a rule similar to 5th ed. furious charge. +1 to initiative and strength
3. Point reduction. They cost more than a basic terminator.

Whilst I agree with the overall sentiment, Fleshbane seems out of place in both fluff and purpose. Considering that a shotgun in 40k is S3, I'm not seeing how a rapid-fire version justifies Fleshbane. Especially when you consider all the weapons that don't have Fleshbane, despite being more dangerous.

Gameplay wise , is S5 really the issue with the Ripper Gun? It seems good enough to wound most infantry and such, and we have better options against MCs. I'd have thought it would be more useful to give it Rending (which would make it useful against more targets) and/or increase its range to 18".

Also, make veterans:


Unit size: 5

Veteran: Ws 4 // Bs 4 // Str 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 4 // A 1 // Ld 7 // Sv 5+

Wargear:
-Flak Armour
-Lasrifle (Range 30" Lasgun, with Salvo 2/4)
-Laspistol
-CCW
-Frag Grenades

Special Rules:
-Scout (or Infiltrate, whichever allows for deploying within 18" of the enemy)
-Outflank

Options:
-You may take up to 5 extra veterans for [X points]
-Two Veterans may form a Veteran Weapons Team (Basically a Vet model with 2 wounds and a big gun) who must take one item from the
Heavy Weapons list.
-One Veteran may carry a vox-caster [5 pts]
-Up to three Veterans may take a Special Weapon
-A Vendetta, Valkyrie, Chimera or Taurox may be taken as a Dedicated Transport

Mission Type:
-Skirmish Fighting (All veterans in this unit have Carapace Armour) [15 pts]
-Interception (All Veterans in this unit have Camo-Cloaks, and on turn 1 may fire their Lasrifles twice) [15 pts]
-Demolitions (All Veterans in this unit have Melta Bombs. One Veteran has a Demolition Charge) [30 pts]

 Selym wrote:
Also, make veterans:


Unit size: 5

Veteran: Ws 4 // Bs 4 // Str 3 // T 3 // W 1 // I 4 // A 1 // Ld 7 // Sv 5+

Wargear:
-Flak Armour
-Lasrifle (Range 30" Lasgun, with Salvo 2/4)
-Laspistol
-CCW
-Frag Grenades

Special Rules:
-Scout (or Infiltrate, whichever allows for deploying within 18" of the enemy)
-Outflank

Options:
-You may take up to 5 extra veterans for [X points]
-Two Veterans may form a Veteran Weapons Team (Basically a Vet model with 2 wounds and a big gun) who must take one item from the
Heavy Weapons list.
-One Veteran may carry a vox-caster [5 pts]
-Up to three Veterans may take a Special Weapon
-A Vendetta, Valkyrie, Chimera or Taurox may be taken as a Dedicated Transport

Mission Type:
-Skirmish Fighting (All veterans in this unit have Carapace Armour) [15 pts]
-Interception (All Veterans in this unit have Camo-Cloaks, and on turn 1 may fire their Lasrifles twice) [15 pts]
-Demolitions (All Veterans in this unit have Melta Bombs. One Veteran has a Demolition Charge) [30 pts]

GW better not let your dreams just be dreams. They just need to do it.

Veterans in vendettas again. What a beautiful world.

So many things to fix with our codex. I'm going to just homebrew it all I swear. Okay, here is what my homewbrewed dream codex wuld be like. WIP for all you Commissar/Ogryn/Ratling/Rough Rider lovers, or people who will indoubtedly complain about balance, sense, and me ripping the codex to shred

-Firstly, voxes provide infinite orders ranges.
-Vehicles can take voxes for 5 pts. Vehicles with Voxes can be issued Orders.
-Any infantry squad can take a med-kit for 10 pts.
-Chimera's are 50 pts, AC are free or for 5 pts
-Deathstrikes are 0-1, D strength shot weapon. Fires on a 4+ 1st turn, +1 to roll for every subsequent turn. They grow more inacurate as they are glanced or penned, instead of taking longer to shoot, to represent panic fire.
-Trenches can be taken for every non-DT squad, length of long aegis section, big enough for HWT, provides 5+ cover. Can be upgraded to 4+ cover for ten points, and can grab up to two fixed Heavy Stubbers for 5 pts each.
-Minedfields for 10 pts, length of Aegis Long Section, max 2-3. Any nfantry model passing over rolls a d6. On a 3+ take a S4 Ap 4 hit. Any non-flyer vehicle takes a S8 hit on the rear, if it pens instead of rolling on chart roll a d6, on a 4+ the vehicle is immobilized.
-Combat Engineers, get Bolster Defense, Krak Grenades, Demo Charges (up to two-three), can booby-trap fortifications, reduce cover, and have a spigot launcher that is either a Krak-Missile launcher or a mortar that reduces the cover of any terrain it hits by 1 permanently.
-Leman Russes, gain Lumbering Behemoth, Demolisher to 150, LRBT to 140, Hp to 4, Co-ax and BH shells for Vanquisher.
-Any vehicle can grab Veterean Crews (BS 4) for ten points.
-Bring back: Collussuss, Medusa, Griffon, Old Harker, Marbo, Al'Raheim, Bastogne, Chenkov. Also give us the Vulture. And you guys have already seen Colonel Gunther Raddick.
-Hydra can switch between Air and Ground, ignores Jink saves
-Hellhound
It and it's variant down to 70 pts each, Smoke Launchers default. Veterean crews give +1 S for regular Hellhound, Shred for Banewolf.
-Dragon Medium Tank 60 pts Heavy Support
BS 3 A F 12 S 12 R 10 HP 3

Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Fast)

Unit Composition: 1 Dragon
Wargear: Turret-Mounted Autocannon
Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter
Smoke Launchers
Searchlight

Options
May Take up to two additional Dragons……60pts each
Can take a veteran crew (BS 4).....10pts
May replace it’s Autocannon with any of the following
-Assualt Cannon……….5pts
-Lascannon…….5pts
-Twin-Linked Autocannon…10pts
-Battle Cannon…….10pts
-Vanquisher Battle Cannon…..10pts
-Twin-Linked Assualt Cannon…..15pts
May take one of the following
-Heavy bolted Sponsons….15pts
-Heavy Flamer Sponson……15pts
Can replace it’s hull mounted Heavy Bolter with one of the following
-Heavy Flamer…..free
-Auocannon……5pts
May take any of the following
-Dozer Blade……5 pts
-Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter….5 pts
-Recovery Gear…..5 pts
-Extra Armour….10 pts
-Fire Barrels…..10 pts
-Camo-Netting…..10 pts


-Bombardier Heavy SP gun
AV 14/12/10 HP 4 BS 3 Heavy Tank Points WIP
Single Hull-mounted gun, one of following, points are WIP
Devastator Cannon
R 48" S 9 AP 3 Large Blast, Ordance 1
AT Cannon
R 72" S D Ap 1 Ordance 1
Cover-Terminator
R: 48" S 8 AP 3 Ignore Cover, Reduce cover granted by terrain hit by one
Heavy Autocannon Array
R: 48 " S: 8 Ap 4 Heavy 3 Twin-linked
Heavy Demolisher Cannon
R: 24" S D Ap 1 Large Blast, Ordance 1
-Tank Commander
Further ten point upgrade to one member of a squadron of tanks, gives a further upgrade depending on tanks in squadron
Dragon: Scout
Hellhound & Friends: Scout
LRBT, Demolisher, Eradicator, Executioner, Bombadier without AC or At cannon: Reroll Scatter
Vanquisher or AT Bombadier: Tank Hunter, Preffered Enemy (Vehicles)
Exterminator, AC Bombardier: Shred

These are extremely rough ideas, more to follow.

I'd like to see a tweaked version of the Leman Russ Conquerer; Guard kinda lacks mobility right now and that would help.

Hellhounds get a points drop, or gain the Scout and Acute Senses rules if they stay the same.

Banewolf gets a 6" torrent.

Slight price drop on the Manticore; price increase on the Wyvern.

Chimeras drop to 55 points.

Executioner's Gets Hot becomes a single roll for all three shots. This means you will no longer statistically glance yourself to death in a 6 turn game.

Vanquisher Cannon gets AP1. Vanquishers reroll 1s and 2s on the vehicle damage table.

Giving vehicles infantry orders would be horrifically overpowered. Ignores Cover Demolishers? Instead, Tank Commanders get a few more unique orders:

"Steady...steady...:" Enemy units must reroll successful cover saves.

"Get out of there!:" Unit must make a shooting attack, followed by a d3+1 Flat Out move.

"On my mark!:" Tank Commander makes a shooting attack on an enemy vehicle or building. If a glancing or penetrating hit is scored, the ordered unit treats that armor facing as being one lower than normal for their shooting attacks until the end of the phase.

A Doctrines system would be fantastic. I think at least one (Steel Legion?) should make all Chimera turret weapons get pinning (IRL APCs use their weapons as suppressioni for the infantry.)

Drop the price on the Demolisher down to 160, all Leman Russes suffer no ill effects from the Ordnance rule.

Sentinels can take a formation that grants Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Servotracker: If a shot from a Hydra Autocannon successfully Glances or Penetrates an enemy Flyer or Skimmer moving Flat-Out, then the Flyer or Skimmer cannot make an attempt at a Jink save this turn. If a shot from a Hydra Autocannon successfully Wounds an enemy Flying Monstrous or Gargantuan Creature utilizing their flight modes, they cannot make a Jink save.

Withering Fire: When firing at ground targets, this weapon snapshots at BS2 if it has not moved.

Servotracker would have very little effect. You choose to jink when targeted; so it is jinking before the hydra can damage it. That gives it no effect.

There was also a poster a page back that asked for ogryns in command squads; then gave the rules for nork deddog. We already have one of those, taking away his uniqueness is not going to help(although I would like a return of the bodyguards: just auto-pass look out sir and always available to meet a challenge as if they were characters)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Servotracker: If a shot from a Hydra Autocannon successfully Glances or Penetrates an enemy Flyer or Skimmer moving Flat-Out, then the Flyer or Skimmer cannot make an attempt at a Jink save this turn. If a shot from a Hydra Autocannon successfully Wounds an enemy Flying Monstrous or Gargantuan Creature utilizing their flight modes, they cannot make a Jink save.

Withering Fire: When firing at ground targets, this weapon snapshots at BS2 if it has not moved.

Servotracker would have very little effect. You choose to jink when targeted; so it is jinking before the hydra can damage it. That gives it no effect.

Jinks aren't automatic saves however, so all it takes is a slight rejigging of the wording. The intent should've been clear in any regards.

If you suffer a single Wound/Glance/Penetrate from any of this model's Hydra Autocannons, then the target may not claim a Jink save from the remaining shots for this model's Hydra Autocannons.

You did see that I had it listed as Heavy 8, right?

There was also a poster a page back that asked for ogryns in command squads; then gave the rules for nork deddog. We already have one of those, taking away his uniqueness is not going to help(although I would like a return of the bodyguards: just auto-pass look out sir and always available to meet a challenge as if they were characters)

Ogryn in command squads aren't supposed to be so rare that only one exists.

Wouldn't that mean by your wording that the enemy model would have to roll their jink saves one at a time until they fail one?

 Blacksails wrote:
Wouldn't that mean by your wording that the enemy model would have to roll their jink saves one at a time until they fail one?

Indeed it would.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Wouldn't that mean by your wording that the enemy model would have to roll their jink saves one at a time until they fail one?

Indeed it would.

That seems unnecessary.

"Ignores Jink" is simpler and achieves pretty much the same outcome.