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There is no way that they are strenght 3. I can't believe this is even a discussion. Also, I don't think that they can attack twice if they get killed (regular attacks+ death attacks) only that the ones who got killed before attacking can make their attacks (a bit like when the Initiative of both combattant is equal)

This is the (quite loosely it seems) translated rule from a poster on bolter and chainsword.

Deathfrenzy: when a model is killed the model moves up attacks in the current initiative step, the rule applies even when the model had attacked, so that means the wulfen can attack twice if its killed.

I don't know for sure. I'm just operating on the assumption that guy knew what he was talking about a bit, because he speaks the language. Clearly he put his own words in there a bit.

ha ok, didn't see this. Interesting

It is correct, good translation

It's the main sticking point for me that makes them worthwhile. Counter to TWC is high initiative instant death(or str10/d shooting). That just makes you get attacked twice as much against wulfen (if you're i5) and still opens you up to a full attack phase from the wulfen even if your i6 or higher, under this current rules interpretation. So you're pretty much suiciding the unit you charge them with, because there's gonna be a few thunder hammers in the unit and their attack Stat is high.

Of course they're weaker to shooting, but you can mitigate that. The reason I lend a bit of credibility to the str3 thing is this: why is a thunder hammer and storm shield only 20 pts?

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, I don't agree. As long as they're str5 I'm more scared of them than TWC. And I don't believe they require a land raider to function. They require smart placement and threat saturation as well as support, kinda like a daemon prince. Thunder wolves are powerful but don't help the rest of your army gain power at all, so that's a niche for them that may become very useful once it's well explored.

If they're str3 they're a terrible unit.

We don't know enough to write them off completely yet, rules wise.

I understand though how people may not jump at a unit that needs list tweaks to be a competitive choice, or even a good choice.

But TWC are also s5. I have been playing crap loads of tau lately and all I know is that missile pods will eat these guys in a turn of even overwatch sadly, let alone their turn. Wounding on 2's ignoring their armor is no joke. I do like that they still strike as they die, but, then their dead. I would rather not purchase units that do cool things when they die if I am going competitive. Rule wise they open doors for modelers though. They certainly make possessed look like trash too.

Is it too much to hope that GW might do something actually beneficial to Chaos for once, and perhaps give us proper God specific Lores for Daemons?
If Wolves are getting a ridiculously bonkers-good melee unit, it seems like we're at least deserving of having our psychic lores treated as equal to everyone else's for once...

According to Lady Atia over on B&C, Daemons are getting 10 formations. Hopefully at least one is usable, though I probably shouldn't hold out much hope.

Yeah, TWC are str 5 but can't swing when they're dead, which is what I try to do to them before they can hit me. Not an option against the wulfen.

Over watch is definitely a concern though, yeah. Put a storm shield or two out front when you charge tau. Might not save the day, but you don't need the hammers to kill tau anyway and the 3++ should mitigate damage.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
It's the main sticking point for me that makes them worthwhile. Counter to TWC is high initiative instant death(or str10/d shooting). That just makes you get attacked twice as much against wulfen (if you're i5) and still opens you up to a full attack phase from the wulfen even if your i6 or higher, under this current rules interpretation. So you're pretty much suiciding the unit you charge them with, because there's gonna be a few thunder hammers in the unit and their attack Stat is high.

Of course they're weaker to shooting, but you can mitigate that. The reason I lend a bit of credibility to the str3 thing is this: why is a thunder hammer and storm shield only 20 pts?

Because if i am correct I thought the hammer was named something else. maybe it's just a power maul and your assuming its a TH. Also, if you running TWC without fenresian/cyber wolves your doing it wrong (competitively wrong that is). Anything that would double out a TWC should be allocated to an 8ppm scrub wolf. Thats what iron priests and wolf lords are for.


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AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, TWC are str 5 but can't swing when they're dead, which is what I try to do to them before they can hit me. Not an option against the wulfen.

Over watch is definitely a concern though, yeah. Put a storm shield or two out front when you charge tau. Might not save the day, but you don't need the hammers to kill tau anyway and the 3++ should mitigate damage.

Well tau present other issue, one being most of their units are much cheaper then these. So using them to kill fire warriors or drones is such a waste of points. At least TWC are more durable and can multi their entire line. After all your eating overwatch from everything anyway, may as well kill it all in one go

No reason they can't join the wulfen and do the same thing making them majority t5. But if the hammer is different that changes things, and if they aren't str5 that also changes things.

I'm advocating that they aren't terrible, not that they're meta-breaking.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
No reason they can't join the wulfen and do the same thing making them majority t5. But if the hammer is different that changes things, and if they aren't str5 that also changes things.

Now your foot slogging it though and your mixing rules. Just because they can run and assault doesn't mean attached characters can and if the unit runs, the whole unit counts as running. Can't fit cav in a transport.

I think my main gripe is the legs.Might just use regular space marine legs and use the wolf legs for some chaos mutants.

Your not wrong though, if you want to make them work I am sure there are ways. Just keep in mind that the more they cost, the more they MUST kill. A unit in a storm wolf with characters is going to be half your army in reserves. Will look cool though, assuming you like those models or have alternative plans

Experiment 626 wrote:
Is it too much to hope that GW might do something actually beneficial to Chaos for once, and perhaps give us proper God specific Lores for Daemons?
If Wolves are getting a ridiculously bonkers-good melee unit, it seems like we're at least deserving of having our psychic lores treated as equal to everyone else's for once...

According to Lady Atia over on B&C, Daemons are getting 10 formations. Hopefully at least one is usable, though I probably shouldn't hold out much hope.

I really, really hope at least one of them is our version of the Librarius Conclave or Eldar Psychic shenaniganry. The fact that Space Marines are better at summoning Daemons than actual Daemons is really kind of annoying. If anyone should get all these rerolls, easier casting, etc, it should be Tzeentch.

Hahahaha! Omg, I had such a good laugh at those plastic Wulfen... lol Thnaks GW, you made my day.

Those look atrocious, lol.... and that's why I only buy models from 'my' GW era with few exceptions.

Those faces.... the arms.. bwhahahaha!

All campaigns so far - Sanctus Reach, Shield of Baal, Damocles - had at least two parts (three with the campaign boxes like Stormclaw), and this is called Warzone Fenris. Makes me wonder if there will be more than one book set this time as well

I would consider using TWC to kill fire warriors kinda suboptimal as well... particularly when there's riptides and broadsides hopping about.

If you're putting them in a transport you have already paid to get them in combat and don't need the iron priests.. if you foots log with iron priests and cyber wolves you also shouldn't really need to run and charge all that often, you still have fleet and can conga line a 12" mover out front to be the initial charger.

I reiterate: I'm saying these aren't useless, not saying they're meta-breaking.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
I would consider using TWC to kill fire warriors kinda suboptimal as well... particularly when there's riptides and broadsides hopping about.

If you're putting them in a transport you have already paid to get them in combat and don't need the iron priests.. if you foots log with iron priests and cyber wolves you also shouldn't really need to run and charge all that often, you still have fleet and can conga line a 12" mover out front to be the initial charger.

I reiterate: I'm saying these aren't useless, not saying they're meta-breaking.

I think we are in agreement and just arguing semantics to be honest.

Yeah, that seems to be the case somewhat, haha. I just felt like there should be a positive outlook on the rules present in the thread, as I think even with the little we know they show potential to be played effectively.

In casual games, they'll probably be quite fun and thematic, and should do just fine against more casual lists, IMO.


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I would like to know if they can actually take thunder hammers or if it's a different weapon, and also if they are thunder hammers, why would they be 10 points less expensive on a platform that can swing it so many times, unless there was a drop in strength?

Ancient- I would agree with that, my point is, they aren't a unit that is going to put Space Wolves on par with Tau, Eldar or even Space Marines. Yes these guys get to attack if they die in melee, but they get zero attacks when shot to death. Being that they are expensive, they will be a priority target, its not like your opponent is going to let you coming running across the board without shooting them. The only way to ensure that, in a system where some guns ignore line of sight, some ignore cover, some are D, is to run them alongside something of greater target priority and the only thing a single codex wolves player has are thunderwolves. So instead of all thunderwolf armies, you may see a few swap out for a unit of these guys (maybe). Again, I was hoping for a list where grey hunters, long fangs and bikes come into their own and this doesnt look like that- now when more is revealed could it be better, yes, and that is what I am hoping for, but between the models and these leaks, things arent looking as good as I had hoped.

Experiment626- Ill trade you, you can have this list and Ill wait for the new Chaos rules to use with my space wolves. Sometimes not getting something is better than getting something subpar.

Agreed, they don't put space wolves in top tier by themselves. The unit buffs they hand out and possible formations involving them could though, and if that happens, at least they aren't "just a tax" and can do some work. They'll be a priority though, I agree with that.

It's thunder hammers and storm shields. They are probably discounted because nobody would take them over TWC when one guy would cost 70 points...

That's not incredibly logical though, if they were smart enough to do that and thought that was the case they should have just lowered the ppm cost.

Is there any other case where a weapon is discounted due to a drop in strength? How much is a power fist for an SOB if they can even take them?

they are s5 lol

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
That's not incredibly logical though, if they were smart enough to do that and thought that was the case they should have just lowered the ppm cost.

Is there any other case where a weapon is discounted due to a drop in strength? How much is a power fist for an SOB if they can even take them?

While they didn't drop in strength at all, keep in mind that Vanguard Vets in the new Vanilla codex were given massive discounts on their specialist melee weapon options.

Perhaps GW has realised that entire squads capable of using things like power toys or hammers et all shouldn't be paying the same cost as regular characters?!
Hopefully it translates through the other MEQ books, so that otherwise unplayable units like close combat kitted Wolf Guard in PA, Chosen and such finally become a playable option instead of just being expensive shelf decorations...

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks 626!

Ok, so the double attack when dying is pretty cool. Especially when they have a 4+, so it is bound to happen. Throw a bunch of these guys at stuff you need dead like a WK.

They're better than Blood Claws or whatever at least.

For all the people concerned about end times being some AoS type event, I don't think so. The word Endzeit being capitalized is normal in german and used to differentiate nouns from more pedestrian words like verbs, adjectives, and other linguistic rabble. And wasn't some end times (or was it wolf time?) some bit about Russ returning or something. I think that's just a justification for them (again?) coming back (ending their EOT tour) and not really about ending everything.

Ok I've been watching this thread for a little bit and can say while I think the Wulfen Alpha looks idiotic jumping down from whatever it jumped off of, the rest really appeal to my inner 10 year old. For what we know they're basically Death Co on permanent charge buff for str and init with access to some cheap upgrades.

While yes it looks like they're going to have a rough time getting into CC like any assault unit does in this current meta. But there's ways around that, finding what works is more dependent on your local meta.

To me the largest question is the Frost Claws and how are they different from Wolf Claws and are they going to be worth taking for something besides one extra attack. I mean if I'd hazard a guess they'll be Str+1 Ap 2/3 with Shred or Fleshbane. The grenade launcher is another question and for 2pts a model I'd take it for games where I don't need a dedicated transport to get at my opponent. The frost axe however IMO is a waste of points when you take into consideration the access to a cheap TH/SS for only 12pts more than it.

With their current rules translation they're blatantly a suicide unit that seems to be fashioned to wreck death stars than anything else. The only thing this unit has to worry about is being shot down before closing the distance, which lets be honest its a huge concern for them. However if they can get in CC this unit no longer care about losses as no matter how many get wacked they'll still get all their hits in and again depending on the frost claw stats they should be wounding most units on a 3+