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 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.

What price point would you suggest?

What's an appropriate points cost for something that can kill a Revenant Titan (@1200 points) with a single shot? I don't know. I guess it should cost about 300 more points, which is still arguably under-costed but at least takes into consideration the fact that one Scorpion can't kill more than one unit a turn.

Right now, in a 2000 point army, you can take three of them. You can delete 3 units a turn off the table. The average 2000 point list has about 10 units. At least the thrashing would be over quickly.

Bump it up a little more so that it's inefficient vs anything other than really big things. Make it so that you'd only ever take it if you knew your opponents units were going to be worth 250+ points each.

 Deathypoo wrote:
The Scorpion is a prime example why I stay the hell away from Forge World. It's stupidly brokenly good and it can delete any unit in the base rules in a single shot. The exceptions are swarm units, but it'll still take out ~10 models per turn *before morale checks*.

To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.

Shadowswords do the same thing, in a GW main Index, for less points.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
The Scorpion is a prime example why I stay the hell away from Forge World. It's stupidly brokenly good and it can delete any unit in the base rules in a single shot. The exceptions are swarm units, but it'll still take out ~10 models per turn *before morale checks*.

To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.

Shadowswords do the same thing, in a GW main Index, for less points.

Except the scorpion's weapon is 4d6 instead of d6
And d6 (sometimes 2d6) damage instead of d3
And BS 2+ instead of BS 4+

The lower strength and one less AP are a drop in the bucket compared to these differences.


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Oh right, plus the Scorpion's invuln save (granted, it must move and take the -1 to hit to get it).

 Deathypoo wrote:

Except the scorpion's weapon is 4d6 instead of d6
And d6 (sometimes 2d6) damage instead of d3
And BS 2+ instead of BS 4+

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh right, plus the Scorpion's invuln save (granted, it must move and take the -1 to hit to get it).

+10 heavy bolters and +4 lascannons. Also, Volcano Cannons do 2d6 damage, not d3.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
The Scorpion is a prime example why I stay the hell away from Forge World. It's stupidly brokenly good and it can delete any unit in the base rules in a single shot. The exceptions are swarm units, but it'll still take out ~10 models per turn *before morale checks*.

To be that hard to kill and that universally deadly at that price point is absurd.

Shadowswords do the same thing, in a GW main Index, for less points.

Except the scorpion's weapon is 4d6 instead of d6
And d6 (sometimes 2d6) damage instead of d3
And BS 2+ instead of BS 4+

The lower strength and one less AP are a drop in the bucket compared to these differences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh right, plus the Scorpion's invuln save (granted, it must move and take the -1 to hit to get it).

And it has Fly.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Except the scorpion's weapon is 4d6 instead of d6
And d6 (sometimes 2d6) damage instead of d3
And BS 2+ instead of BS 4+

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh right, plus the Scorpion's invuln save (granted, it must move and take the -1 to hit to get it).

+10 heavy bolters and +4 lascannons. Also, Volcano Cannons do 2d6 damage, not d3.

hmmmm good call about the lascannons, I had just looked at the default loadout, although if you're right about 2d6 damage instead of d3 then Battlescribe needs to be updated. That's a big difference.

The thing is, and this is a really big indicator of how crazy both of these monsters are, is that 4 lascannons doesn't really swing the equation much. That's one more Heavy d6 from either of these weapons, and the scorpion is still two ahead.

I'd probably still take the Shadowsword though, just because it can split up it's fire when there are no Titans around to justify shooting everything at it, and the Scorpion can still only pop one target. So I guess you've proved your point (assuming 2d6 damage is correct) that the Scorpion isn't insanely better than anything from the base rules...

Their points are getting pretty close once you add the 4 lascannons to the Shadowsword. The Shadowsword is 582 to the Scorpion's 677. So the Scorpion only costs 16% more.

Defensively, the Scorpion has 20% more effective wounds due to Spirit Stones, and an invulnerable save after it gets to move.

Offensively, the Shadowsword, if it sits still, expects to put about 21 wounds on a Titanic T8 3+ model with its lascannons and main gun, though this goes up to 25 if you're willing to use a CP to re-roll the number of hits on the volcano cannon. If the Scorpion sits still or shoots the closest target its main gun expects 34 wounds.

The Scorpion's main problem is just that it has to shoot everything at one target, since that will often be extreme overkill. But it's still got about a 44% chance to destroy a Knight in one volley if it sits still (~52% if you use a CP to re-roll a 1 on your shot rolls). This does drop to closer to 30% if it has to shoot at 3+, though. It's no Necron Gauss Pylon but it's pretty good. It's probably worth taking, and better than the Shadowsword, if your opponent has more than a single tank.

The shadowsword is the cobra equivalent, and both of these are very well balanced. The scorpion should have 2d6 shots. The phantoms pulsar and d weapons are balanced in this way.

 Temujin wrote:
The shadowsword is the cobra equivalent, and both of these are very well balanced. The scorpion should have 2d6 shots.

It would be incredibly overpriced for 2d6 shots.


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Dionysodorus wrote:

Offensively, the Shadowsword, if it sits still, expects to put about 21 wounds on a Titanic T8 3+ model with its lascannons and main gun, though this goes up to 25 if you're willing to use a CP to re-roll the number of hits on the volcano cannon. If the Scorpion sits still or shoots the closest target its main gun expects 34 wounds.

But then the Shadowsword still has 10 heavy bolters to throw around at non-titans (or even them, that many heavy bolters will chip in a wound or 2). Imperial things are always more versatile than Eldar things, and they do so for cheaper.

If you wanted to kill a unit of anything but tanks, the Shadowsword is the clear winner and a hundred points cheaper. And more to the point, a GW kit/rules, since the argument was that FW makes more powerful things.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

Offensively, the Shadowsword, if it sits still, expects to put about 21 wounds on a Titanic T8 3+ model with its lascannons and main gun, though this goes up to 25 if you're willing to use a CP to re-roll the number of hits on the volcano cannon. If the Scorpion sits still or shoots the closest target its main gun expects 34 wounds.

But then the Shadowsword still has 10 heavy bolters to throw around at non-titans (or even them, that many heavy bolters will chip in a wound or 2). Imperial things are always more versatile than Eldar things, and they do so for cheaper.

If you wanted to kill a unit of anything but tanks, the Shadowsword is the clear winner and a hundred points cheaper. And more to the point, a GW kit/rules, since the argument was that FW makes more powerful things.

It depends what you're shooting at. The Scorpion does just fine against Marines, provided there's a big enough unit. It expects to kill more than the Shadowsword, including its Heavy Bolters, though it really needs to be shooting at a 10-man unit or better yet a 15-man unit. The Shadowsword only barely beats it against Conscripts. Like I said, the Scorpion's main problem is just that it can only shoot one thing. But, really, how often is this an issue? Nobody's bringing an entire army of 5-man infantry units. Infantry spam lists that intentionally avoid bringing good multi-wound targets will almost always have 10-man units to shoot. Possibly the only matchup where I really want a Shadowsword instead of a Scorpion is mass Brimstone Horrors and Daemon Princes. And it's so much better against vehicles, and especially flyers, and has the option to become significantly more durable.

That said, I think if you're looking at a Scorpion you should probably consider the Vampire Hunter instead. It costs 37% more but gets a 4++ at first instead of a 5++, has Hard to Hit (making it 33% more durable against BS3+), and has an easier time sniping things with its CTM. It has the same main gun that was already a pretty good buy on the Scorpion and adds another 8 shots that are almost as good as the first ~14 and which can be independently targeted. Obviously the entire rest of your list needs to be anti-horde if you bring one of these at 2k, though.

has anyone seen an apoc game in 8th?

Wanted to know how the big titans do vs other super heavies and columns of tanks?

It seems to me that due to the overreaction to the previous edition most armies got balanced and eldar got pricey. also, the fact that shuricanons have no ap now at all makes it debatable whether or not they are worth the points.
A lot of things in the Aeldari craftworlds/Ynari army list seem to have the theme of being fairly resilient due only to some re-rolls and buffs, but mostly expesnive and outnumber nearly all the time. the main weakness of the whole army feels like they can stay on the board but struggle to kill anything.

It's like there are a series of knobs that adjust the points values, staying power and firepower of each army and while the other knobs are now at medium levels for Aeldari, the firepower just got toned down to low due the bitching of other players because of how newb friendly the army was.

 Seerpath wrote:
the fact that shuricanons have no ap now at all makes it debatable whether or not they are worth the points.

I actually got curious about this because they seemed so good to me. And they are. In a vacuum, they are easily, by far, the most efficient weapon per point against a variety of targets. And that's before you consider the effect movement has on the other guns.

The math just gets confusing when you take into consideration the points of the platform. Now instead of starcannons costing 150% more points, they cost something like 20% more points (varies wildly by platform) and my math goes out the window.

Long story short, I think that you should upgrade your gun slots into whatever you think your army needs, but if you end up with unused heavy weapon slots on Wraithlords or unused Guardian defense platforms or whatever, downgrade some guns to make sure every possible slot has at least a Shuriken Cannon.

Oh, and scatter lasers are terrible, never take them on something unless it can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty... and even then consider that the Shuriken Cannon is better against anything with a decent armor save.

-3 ap on 6s to wound is plenty good enough on the shuriken cannon. Especially when you have platforms that can field 2 or 3 of them (star weavers, wave serpents) they really add up.
When you start factoring in doom you are getting more shots at bladestorm, especially when shooting at anything t7+.
They are good, cheap, consistent wound dealers.
The fact that they are assault for an army that wants to be constantly moving is icing on the cake.

Wyldcarde wrote:
-3 ap on 6s to wound is plenty good enough on the shuriken cannon. Especially when you have platforms that can field 2 or 3 of them (star weavers, wave serpents) they really add up.
When you start factoring in doom you are getting more shots at bladestorm, especially when shooting at anything t7+.
They are good, cheap, consistent wound dealers.
The fact that they are assault for an army that wants to be constantly moving is icing on the cake.

My dice thought otherwise last night. Ancestor's Grace on a unit of 9. Got 16 hits. And then rolled two 4+ against a squad of Primarus marines.


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I did try hornet's yesterday though. A unit of 2 with pulse and crystals. They did some significant damage, albeit i guided them 4/5 turns.

That's just bad rolling. Hardly proof that the weapon is poor.

Wouldnt you be wounding marines on 3s? Even with ap 0 they wouldn't be saving all the saves unless they roll well.

Considering they are only 2 points more than a twin linked shuriken catapault its a no brainer upgrade.

Doom definitely makes them a lot better though. Getting 2 shots at the 6 to wound is huge.

Having just tried reading this whole thread, what are the stand out units? what are competitive choices this edition? any obvious avoids? I'm probably starting an Eldar army, and want to make a limited budget effective, to begin with.

Are any of the aspects good? or is it all wave serpents now?

Wave Serpents are by far the best all-around unit we have. There's a "wishlist" thread somewhere where Eldar players are even asking for Wave Serpents to be nerfed in the upcoming Codex, because they totally out-class all of our other tanks. They are very hard to kill and can mount a decent chunk of fire power for a very efficient points cost.

I say this despite ignoring them to mess around with a Wraith Knight+Lord army haha... I think all varieties of Wraith are good (including Hemlocks) but I haven't gotten a change to field Wraithguard yet.

Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons are the only good aspects atm. I see people argue for Shining Spears but they still look mediocre to me.

Jetbikes are still good but are probably not talked about as much because they aren't as overpowered as they were last edition.

All of our melee infantry are trash right now. Like... Really Really awful. Talking about craftworld here, the other flavors of Eldar are fine at melee.

Dire Avengers have a typo in their cost which makes them unusable in points games (still fine in Power based games, if you do that).

Pretty much all the rest is decent but just compares unfavorably with Wave Serpents. You don't even need filler for wave serpents now, as you can take one dedicated transport per other slot filled in a detachment. So if I take an outrider detachment with one Skyrunner Farseer and 3x3 Jetbikes, I can take 4 Wave Serpents to go with it. They can't even transport a single model in that army but they're still a good choice to take.

No love for Warp Spiders? I know they can't jump shoot jump anymore, but if you're in a ynnari Detachment they can

 luke1705 wrote:
No love for Warp Spiders? I know they can't jump shoot jump anymore, but if you're in a ynnari Detachment they can

I just don't think they're worth three times as much as a Guardian Defender (which is hardly outstanding to begin with). They are more maneuverable, but sooner or later they still have to get within 12". They have a 3+ armor save, but are still T3 W1. Their gun is a step up from a Shuriken Catapult, but not a huge one, and it's not going to inst-pop a unit like the Fire Dragons can. Flickerjump is a nice perk but not a game changer. Ynnari make everything better so I wouldn't use them as part of any other unit's assessment.

No I know but it gives them their JSJ back. Of course, I suppose it does that for other units too, but they have a LOT of mobility, so I think they benefit from JSJ back out of LOS more than most units

So, Forgeworld:
- Shadow Spectres would have to treck on their own under enemy fire - no transport for them
- No Outrider detach made out of flyers (aww)
- Scorpion, not sure if buffed or nerfed. On one hand, it lost about 10% of it's firepower or so? On the other, it's now stable damage, extra wounds won't be lost when shooting at W3 squads and, say, necron Quantium shields are way less effective against it.

 Shadenuat wrote:
So, Forgeworld:
- Shadow Spectres would have to treck on their own under enemy fire - no transport for them
- No Outrider detach made out of flyers (aww)
- Scorpion, not sure if buffed or nerfed. On one hand, it lost about 10% of it's firepower or so? On the other, it's now stable damage, extra wounds won't be lost when shooting at W3 squads and, say, necron Quantium shields are way less effective against it.

Why do you need an Outrider detachment when the Air Wing Detachment exists?

 Shadenuat wrote:

- Scorpion, not sure if buffed or nerfed. On one hand, it lost about 10% of it's firepower or so? On the other, it's now stable damage, extra wounds won't be lost when shooting at W3 squads and, say, necron Quantium shields are way less effective against it.

It's pretty exclusively a nerf. Consistency is nice but in a world where command re-rolls are a thing, if it mattered, having a little more upside would have been better against more targets.

 Korlandril wrote:
Why do you need an Outrider detachment when the Air Wing Detachment exists?

Flexibility. 1-2 jetbikes + 1-2 flyers on 1000 pts for example with +1 CP.

 GreaterGood? wrote:
Having just tried reading this whole thread, what are the stand out units? what are competitive choices this edition? any obvious avoids? I'm probably starting an Eldar army, and want to make a limited budget effective, to begin with.

Are any of the aspects good? or is it all wave serpents now?

Deathypoo covered most of it. I wanted to chime in just to emphasize how good Hemlocks are now. Just solid all around and super versatile.

I do think our melee isn't as lacklustre as others have said. Wraithblades are fine if not overpowered in anyway. I've been having a lot of success with 6-7 man scorpion squads as well, pop up in cover near a backfield unit, do the whole assassin thing.

Otherwise it's serpents, reapers, our psychic and, because of the transport, guardians in serpents are really pretty good.

I have had success with warp spiders. They aren't as good as previous edition but are still solid. Flickerjump is nice but flickerjump plus conceal is brutal. And they are mobile enough to get into cover so their 3+ becomes a 2+ save.

Ditto with shining spears. They are always first target from the opposition for me but throw out a lot of attacks. Short range again but deadly.

I think both of them are better in ynnari where their short range puts them in soulburst range. Shining spears especially as they have the firepower to trigger soulburst on their own.

Also gotta special mention the hemlock. Is amazing.

Also the night spinner isn't too bad this edition. It does lose out a bit to the wave serpent but is the best of the rest for the tanks.

I think our main weapon is our psychic. Doom makes every unit we have more dangerous. It is a glorious feeling dooming something big like a tank or knight and just bladestorming it to death with massed shuriken fire. The rest are solid as well. Only one power per phase in matched play hurts a bit tho.

I wish Smite was a shooting power and not part of psychic.

Why is that?