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Army as a whole is much weaker, no doubt about it. Hopefully the next balance pass is actually a balance pass and can help us. Still, could be a lot worse

ERJAK, as blunt as you always are I just wanted to start by saying I have tremendous respect (and always have regardless of what forum I see you on) for your opinions and analysis of Sisters and the state of the army/book/etc.

I agree with most of your assessment honestly, and all of your points about surviving Tau shooting (among other things) are a big reason I have switched to taking VH in any "competitive" game I play. With how insane the codex creep is getting (just as it has been since I came back to the game in late 6th/early 7th) I really think if they kept everything else the same but fixed Tale of the Stoic, made the Exorcist AP -3 on the Missiles, 12 wounds maybe even T8 again at its current cost (while keeping Refrain 2CP), and even gave the Castigator a "grinding advance" rule for the battle cannon/autocannons and either T8 or at least a 2+ save that would at best put us back to around where we were pre-War Zone Nachmund.

While it could definitely be so much worse than it is, I just do not fully understand why GW, now that we are doing so well in sales compared to before the faction overhaul, saw the need to hit so much of the faction in the 9th codex. I was discussing this with a Custodes player not too long ago (wasn't playing him but he had just finished a game with a buddy of mine) and he said that Sisters are the only faction that received their 9th edition book and got predominantly worse/weaker. I don't want to agree with him but it definitely deels that way right now. I am so glad we are even still good enough to sit with the other A tier factions but we were finally in such a good place, and just like always, GW had to spoil our fun. Our 9th edition book could have been Vahl, Warsuits, Sacresants, the Castigator, and Novitiates in addition to the 8th edition book with some tweaks to VH and Tale of the Stoic and a few other things like all the morale shenanigans and whatever else they felt didn't fit with the edition (not Deadly Descent though, there was no need to change that) and I am sure we would not have truly been "S" tier on par with Dark Eldar and Admech like when they first dropped. We would have been incredibly good, but we would not have ruined the game, we weren't broken, so they didn't need to fix us.

I guess I am off to build and paint 19 more Sacresants!

U02dah4 wrote:
Poor triumph that's way to harsh

Firstly in wtc faq events its not an option to take battle sanctum

In non wtc faq events its not an either or

Generally you want two of ooml, battle sanctum, triumph if your building to leap of faith

And if you've paid for battle sanctum + cheap character for 100 pts more your getting 18w -1 to hit and a 4++ with a +1 to hit - a solid aura stacking with a cannoness buff, auto 6 ing a miracle dice is great and it's got a lot of other minor buffs.that are situationaly usefull 5+ deny being one MW aura and ignoring moral aura sure it won't damage output like the others but it's not meant to its a force multiplier.

There isn't a WTC event within a 1000 miles of me so that's not really something I take into consideration. Obviously going to be important for people who do play in that format.

The problem with the Triumph isn't necessarily it's datasheet, it's its absurd pricetag. For 220 points you're paying a fairly extreme premium for a unit that doesn't really fill any individual role well.

The Triumph is trying to be Morvenn, a Dialogus, and a battle sanctum all at once. Unfortunately, that means it ends up just...not doing any of those things.

It tries to be a Morvenn-esque force multiplier+Melee threat but A. Isn't anywhere near as good as Morvenn in just pure combat stats and B. Isn't anywhere near as good as Morvenn as an army buffer. It also can't really serve as a late game distraction carnifex the way Morvenn can because it's too slow, too fragile (those 18w dry up FAST, even with 4++, -1 to hit), and does too little damage to be effective.

For the buffs, Fiery Heart is actually extreme anti-synergy for Leap of Faith because using dice in morale is one of the best ways to guarantee a second or third AoF in your opponent's turn. It can be helpful but is ultimately very minor.

One miracle dice at the start of the battle round is nice, but not exactly groundbreaking.

Petals of the Bloody Rose is technically the most powerful of the buffs but...it's a 6" move. BR and OoML make use of transports and Zephyrim far too much for this to benefit more than their sacresancts and while VH can actually get a lot of mileage out of it, they don't really have the points to pay for this AND Morvenn. Especially with Celestine being slightly cheaper and doing a lot to alleviate VH's slow advance problem.

Icons of the Valorous Heart is a self buff and its self isn't very buffable. The 5+ deny is pretty nice to have, but there are better ways to go about it.

Simulacrum is useful but requires Core/Character, only works once per battle round, and only with 6". Considering how slow it is, the utility on this is much more limited than it seems off an initial read. With retributors being on the table being essentially suicide, this most often ends up letting 1 unit of sacresancts charge 6+d6 once per game.

TL: DR, The Triumph touches on a lot of niches but doesn't really fill any role in the army and with it's high points cost, you always end up in a situation where you can accomplish whatever you wanted the Triumph to do better AND cheaper with other options.

I think your looking at different unit combos

So the triumph being adeptus ministorum infantry would usually be near a hospitalier for the 6+++ giving it a smidge more survivability. On top of the sacrasants I would also be useing 3 units of novitiates who really benefit from the +1to hit.

I wouldn't use it in a transport heavy list I would use it in an infantry heavy footslog list going for investigate signals and leap in a middle blob.

Celestine is a better combat unit and morvenne the beta buffer

But that extra miracle dice is crucial if you want to reliably build to leap of faith. Sanctum alone isn't enough for reliable 12 on leap and is less effective

And no you wouldn't pay for it and morvehn its a choice between them. Morvehn is classically the better unit but she doesn't add anything to the leap mission which is the only reason you take triumph over her.

Sanctum I'm still torn on as the only alternative. It's 110 pts with a preacher to action it. So half the points. But it adds very little to the army compared to the triumph. Ot also gives you the MD at end of turn rather than start of battle round which is a lot worse.

I have an upcoming game against AdMech - any advice?
I already wrote my list (a 1500pt MSU infantry list with Argent Shroud) and am not looking to counterpick, I've just never played against admech in 9th and I think only played one game ever against them in 8th. I have no idea what to expect or how they play.

Competitively horses that pre game move accompanied by lots of infantry with high volume firepower and lots of complex buffs

Less competitively an artillery line of big vehicles

I've been thinking now the bloody rose supplement works with the triumph you can take an imagifier with the 4th Tale and that gives you the best part of Ooml meaning you only really lose the broken smash canonness and gain the BR trait - I might be switching over at my next event

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804160.page

So I just saw some potential leaks that Abaddon is gaining a "max of 3 damage per phase" rule and a bunch of other buffs while going to 300 points. Not to say its unfair for him to get a glow up (he deserves it, all of chaos does) but with the way the leak is looking I really hope Vahl drops back to 270 or even just straight back to 260 at some point. Right now for 20 points more Abaddon gets 8/16 attacks instead of her 5/10 at higher strength and better AP, and gains that crazy durability buff (in addition to a bunch of chaos marks that increase his damage and durability). I expect that in CA next year he will get a bump up to 320-340 but I remember when they said that Vahl could go toe to toe with Abaddon in one of her initial articles and now its looking like even with fighting twice she won't stand a chance if he is never taking more than 3 wounds a phase.

I don't think chaos is our biggest threat and vahl dropping a few points won't fix us

Oh I'm not saying either of those things, I just find it interesting that even when Vahl was the "boogeywoman" of 9th when our codex dropped (too cheap for how good she was) Abaddon was used as a comparison for her and now Abaddon is going to be "better" than her (in damage and durability though she will still probably be the superior buff unit). Just found it interesting.

I wonder if Gulliman will also be getting a "can't take more than 3 damage a phase" rule, because now I think Abaddon gives him a run for his cost too. GW will have to really buff marines in the 2.0 codex in order to keep them relevant.

GFdoubles wrote:
Oh I'm not saying either of those things, I just find it interesting that even when Vahl was the "boogeywoman" of 9th when our codex dropped (too cheap for how good she was) Abaddon was used as a comparison for her and now Abaddon is going to be "better" than her (in damage and durability though she will still probably be the superior buff unit). Just found it interesting.

I wonder if Gulliman will also be getting a "can't take more than 3 damage a phase" rule, because now I think Abaddon gives him a run for his cost too. GW will have to really buff marines in the 2.0 codex in order to keep them relevant.

Competitive is 'end of 7th' level of borked right now. All of the big 3 (potentially 4 with the Nid Leaks) Need 30% of their power just trimmed right off the top to even START being balance-able.

Also, every nerf in the CA2022 needs to be reverted. All of them. Honestly, balance would be MUCH better if they just faqed that book out of existence.

G'day everyone,

Just wondering what people are finding to be the best configurations of basic battle sister squads. I'm tossing up between squads of ten with 2 special weapons and a combi on the superior. Probably with flamers, to be a decent independent unit to grab objectives.

OR alternatively 20 sister blobs with 2x meltagun, 2x multi melta, and combi melta. This latter configuration appeals to me as it gives a lot of ablative wounds to protect the juicy special & heavy weapons.

I'm planning to run a character heavy OML sisters list (probably not the most competitive) with Morvenn and Junith Eruita. This would give me two decent chapter-master type rerolls for the 20 sister blobs, to maximize the buffs.

Any thoughts?

Most competitive lists keep them cheap and cheerful, with 5 models and no upgrades other than the free chainsword on the Superior. If you want to spend extra points on basic troops, take some Novitiates, as at least their melee can be good through sheer weight of dice. Indeed, the only thing holding Novitiates back is the fact that for every squad you have to also have a regular Battle Sister Squad in the army.

5 models + Inferno pistol

If the pistols kill 1 model across the game you've paid your points back And given miracle dice it's useful to have a smattering.

Have you considered trying the same idea with max-size retributor squads?

At the weekend I was paired into crusher stampede, custodes, tau, harlequins and drukhari with the job of scraping points (I was paired into the toughest match up each time) the team took second place overall. Fine in a team event but I don't see how to compete in singles other than custodes/tau they were all losses from the start. Bring on the nerfs.

Any particular MVPs U02dah4? Units that you felt you wouldn't leave home without, or ones that performed surprisingly well?

The switch from melta rets to a unit of paragon warsuits was a definite improvement

And 3x Novitiates (I ran a brigade) were great but tended to soak a lot of fire in the early game I'm interested to try fielding a 4th unit

I was also running triumph/beacon of faith/imagifier with BR tale/ to max leap of faith which I maxed every game. I would ditch the imagifier as a melee cannonness with Martyred is probably enough I had excess MD every game

And an inquisitor with radical/blackshroud to open up psychic secondaries which performed well in 3 out of 5 games but was weak vs drukhari can't interrogate transports and harlequins that are just broken lying fast and lethal

Blinding faith/emperors grace were essential In the shooting games grace slightly better as there was ample dense terrain but I feel torn because rapturous blows was really missed vs crusher stampede

good news from the balance update.

nearly all our power armor units get 1 ap reduction (doesnt stack with other ap reduction)

Miracle dice every turn instead of round,

and valorous heart changed from ap reduction to cannot re-roll wounds against them

Bodyguard rule change hurts us, but if they'd drop all the CA2022 points nerfs we got it would make up for it. Sacresants kinda get dumpstered all-round since they don't get the AP reduction either.

Miracle Dice change means we have less reason to take the Triumph tax which helps too.

It depends the vahl bodyguard build got nerfed the sacresants wont even benefit from the armour boost

Valorous Heart also seems nerfed comparative to other Convictions. the new Conviction is to situation a massive boost vs some armies and doing nothing vs others. Plus ironically there sacresants lose the -1ap that previously had



However the Novitiate spamming triumph build I was running just get enough minimal dice to dump the triumph and still max leap

And with the extra point of ap protection and boost vs non los artillery we are in a much better place

We would have been better off if we have been excluded from this

ERJAK wrote:
We would have been better off if we have been excluded from this

Agreed with the exception of the doubling of the miracle dice.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Bodyguard rule change hurts us, but if they'd drop all the CA2022 points nerfs we got it would make up for it. Sacresants kinda get dumpstered all-round since they don't get the AP reduction either.

Miracle Dice change means we have less reason to take the Triumph tax which helps too.

Uo-2 was the only person taking a Triumph it seemed to be working for him but he was the only one doing it.

Oh, it occurred to me that the indirect fire nerf also made 2CP to use the Exorcist even more ridiculous. Just make it a free ability at this point.

I think its a bit harsh

Aside from the nerfs to other factions and the non los buffs that mostly help us and the extra miracle dice

Units worse

Sacresants

Unit Mixed buff/debuf

Celestian Squad
Exorcist

Buffed

Canoness
Celestine and gemini superior
Ephrael stern
Morvehnn Vahl
Palatine
Battle Sister
Sister Novitiate Squad
Aestred and Agathae
Hospitaller
Dialogus
Dogmata
Imagifier
Repentia Superior
Paragon Warsuits
Seraphim
Zephyrim
Dominionsquad
Castigator
Mortifier
Retributor squad
Rhino
Immolator

No meaningful change
Penitent engine
Preacher
Crusader
Deathcult assassoms
Arco flagellants
Missionary

List wise - Losers
Sacresants are largely gone
Pentitent engine are now overshadowed by mortifier
Exorcist was barely takeable before and is now one less reason to take
Triumph/Battle sanctum probably not justified in taking anymore which is a buff to the army itself

There are a lot of winners in that list and we have gained a lot of survivability

U02dah4 wrote:
I think its a bit harsh

Aside from the nerfs to other factions and the non los buffs that mostly help us and the extra miracle dice

Units worse

Sacresants

Unit Mixed buff/debuf

Celestian Squad
Exorcist

Buffed

Canoness
Celestine and gemini superior
Ephrael stern
Morvehnn Vahl
Palatine
Battle Sister
Sister Novitiate Squad
Aestred and Agathae
Hospitaller
Dialogus
Dogmata
Imagifier
Repentia Superior
Paragon Warsuits
Seraphim
Zephyrim
Dominionsquad
Castigator
Mortifier
Retributor squad
Rhino
Immolator

No meaningful change
Penitent engine
Preacher
Crusader
Deathcult assassoms
Arco flagellants
Missionary

List wise - Losers
Sacresants are largely gone
Pentitent engine are now overshadowed by mortifier
Exorcist was barely takeable before and is now one less reason to take
Triumph/Battle sanctum probably not justified in taking anymore which is a buff to the army itself

There are a lot of winners in that list and we have gained a lot of survivability

I don't think reducing AP by one is a meaningful enough boost to actually qualify as a 'buff' to any of the support characters. If an Imagifier or a Dialogus gets targeted, it's dead. One less AP isn't going to change that.

I also don't really count it as a buff to the tanks. Immolators, and Castigators are still bad and the indirect fire change made the Exorcist a sad joke. One less AP doesn't isn't enough to change that.

I still think that Sacresancts are the best unit in the army. Even with the changes to bodyguard and not getting -1AP, Bloodyrose and OoML are still running at least 20. Nothing else offers anywhere near the amount of midboard control that Sacresancts can.

That said, if anything CAN fully replace Sacresancts (or at least allow you to get away with only running 10) it's the Novitiate spam you've been running. Novitiates were the ONLY unit with any meaningful damage output to ALSO have enough wounds per unit to see any benefit out of armor of contempt.

Even then though, the buffs space marines got were so DRAMATICALLY more meaningful that I don't see how they don't end up above us. Dark Angels, BT, GK, and Tsons were ALREADY at or above our level and they all saw WAY bigger benefits from this balance slate than we did.

In fact, even if we end up being overall stronger after these changes (which I personally don't think we are) we STILL drop a tier because space marines got just that much better.

Re castigator it is a significant buff AP3 weapons were wounding on a 6+ now a 5 Massed ap2 now a 4 its a notable buff - doesn't mean its worth taking.

It gives the support characters a better chance of surviving vs something weak e.g. a br battle sister squad no it won't make or break the unit
.

But it's not so much about the individual units but the army as a whole. On an individual basis 1 character won't gain much but across 3/4 of your army that's quite a bit of resilience added


People were liking valorous heart before and your getting it better and free in addition to your BR/OOML buffs

In comparison to non sm armies its a boost

And vs sm I'm not sure I personally think its a dead heat looking at my BA the model count is so much lower there and things like Vanguard lose out because of their shields.

Since they were debuffed I felt sacrosanct were overcosted except for the bodyguard ability now that's gone I'd be tempted to drop them. 2D isn't what it used to be and we have repentia for that

U02dah4 wrote:
Re castigator it is a significant buff AP3 weapons were wounding on a 6+ now a 5 Massed ap2 now a 4 its a notable buff - doesn't mean its worth taking.

It gives the support characters a better chance of surviving vs something weak e.g. a br battle sister squad no it won't make or break the unit
.

But it's not so much about the individual units but the army as a whole. On an individual basis 1 character won't gain much but across 3/4 of your army that's quite a bit of resilience added


People were liking valorous heart before and your getting it better and free in addition to your BR/OOML buffs

In comparison to non sm armies its a boost

And vs sm I'm not sure I personally think its a dead heat looking at my BA the model count is so much lower there and things like Vanguard lose out because of their shields.

Since they were debuffed I felt sacrosanct were overcosted except for the bodyguard ability now that's gone I'd be tempted to drop them. 2D isn't what it used to be and we have repentia for that

The thing about the valorous heart comparison is that people like it 100% because of sacresants. No one who brought VH was thinking 'man, these battle sisters are so resilient now!'.

Putting the VH buff on everything BUT sacresancts is worse than JUST having it on Sacresants.

I rarely use the maces. The extra AP on the halberds tends to work out better for me. It's still the only unit we have that can survive long enough to contest a midfield objective. Repentia ALSO took a nerf thanks to not being affected by Armor of Contempt.

Basically, all of marines BEST units got +1 armor and only our WORST units got +1 armor.

Your too pessimistic bladeguard and vanguard vets with SS didn't get the +1 armour.

Repentia wernt nerfed just not buffed. They are still glass cannons.

You seem stuck on one strategy and are only evaluating in relation to it. Maybe it's time to change

U02dah4 wrote:
Your too pessimistic bladeguard and vanguard vets with SS didn't get the +1 armour.

Repentia wernt nerfed just not buffed. They are still glass cannons.

You seem stuck on one strategy and are only evaluating in relation to it. Maybe it's time to change

It's true that most of my analysis is done with the Valorous Heart 30 Sacresant build in mind.

But it's because it's the one strategy that had any success. 30 Sacresancts were the only way to win games during the Taustodes era. Even against marines and the like, they were still easily our strongest unit.

I tried getting by with just 10 sacresants at adepticon and just didn't have the staying power to keep up with even Dark Angels. Every point I spent on something that wasn't a sacresant felt like I'd thrown it in the garbage at the end of the event.

While it's possible that another strategy could emerge that ends up being superior to the previous VHS30 build, I just don't see it currently.

What could replace it? It has to be something that opens up due to the changes in the balance slate (for obvious reasons) but what do we have?

Bloody Rose full aggro? Novitiates bounce off every marine, even on the charge. Repentia are only getting worse, relative to the rest of the field. Rhinos are tougher than they used to be, but not amazingly so. The balance slate nerfing indirect fire and buffing our normal unit's resilience helps somewhat but at the cost of other power armor factions now being much more able to blunt our offense. We just don't have enough output to make up for how slow the army is. Our damage keeps getting more and more mediocre.

Keep with VHS30? Trading the AP reduction for 'no rerol to wound' makes them much more frail than they were. They also lose out significantly to all marine units that can cut down their AP.

OoML trade game? Probably the most improved of the options but still suffers from Sacresants being left out of Armor of Contempt. Junith's Cover aura is better than ever, which is nice. At the end of the day though, it doesn't have the resilience VHS30 had and it honestly has almost nothing in the way of offensive push. AoC won't stop your opponent from downing your squads instantly either.

Argent Shroud? HAHAHAHAAHA. No.

I'm actually looking at Paragons a bit now. With an effective 1+ save they look slightly more resilient against many anti-tank weapons. And they can both shoot and fight. Maybe a unit of them could replace at least some of the Sacresants in previous lists. Mortifiers are looking better as well, and are now the obvious choice over Penitent Engines (Pengines just can't catch a break). And for fast moving melee, Zephyrim are still right there. Any of those could perhaps become a larger presence in a Sisters list to replace at least some of the Sacresants that we used to lean on for everything.