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Poll
How should female marines be added to the lore?
Add female pronouns and remove anything denying female marines, otherwise leave it untouched.
Amend the lore to suggest that space marines have always included women
Amend the lore to suggest space marines have always included women, but they look like the men, so are usually mistaken for male marines
Add to the lore to say that Cawl found a way to make the process work for women
Don't add female marines.

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Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Altima, aren't you missing the wytch cults which are predominantly female in the DE line up?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Altima wrote:

Adepta Sororitas have 6 male options in a range of about 30 (3-4 of which came out fairly recently and several of their units pull double duty, such as your basic battle sister basically also being a retributor or dominion). So yes, that makes them one of the more equal gender represented armies on the tabletop and certainly out of the human factions. Even though they shouldn't be.

That's 80% female.
Not to mention SoB are explictly advertised as the "women and friends" faction. They're just as gender slanted as Space Marines but in the opposite direction.
The fact that you are elevating these as in some way a "balanced" faction suggests you're using "equal" to mean something entirely different to what the rest of us would understand it to be.

Since those male options are specific units can't one just opt to not take them? It's not as if the rank and file Sisters have male models in their midsts.
A closer equivalent would be if the Marines had some sort of auxiliary unit in their codex that had female models. Like, some sort of peasant unit or something.

What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Altima wrote:

Adepta Sororitas have 6 male options in a range of about 30 (3-4 of which came out fairly recently and several of their units pull double duty, such as your basic battle sister basically also being a retributor or dominion). So yes, that makes them one of the more equal gender represented armies on the tabletop and certainly out of the human factions. Even though they shouldn't be.

That's 80% female.
Not to mention SoB are explictly advertised as the "women and friends" faction. They're just as gender slanted as Space Marines but in the opposite direction.
The fact that you are elevating these as in some way a "balanced" faction suggests you're using "equal" to mean something entirely different to what the rest of us would understand it to be.

Since those male options are specific units can't one just opt to not take them? It's not as if the rank and file Sisters have male models in their midsts.
A closer equivalent would be if the Marines had some sort of auxiliary unit in their codex that had female models. Like, some sort of peasant unit or something.


Chapter servs you mean.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Not Online!!! wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Altima wrote:

Adepta Sororitas have 6 male options in a range of about 30 (3-4 of which came out fairly recently and several of their units pull double duty, such as your basic battle sister basically also being a retributor or dominion). So yes, that makes them one of the more equal gender represented armies on the tabletop and certainly out of the human factions. Even though they shouldn't be.

That's 80% female.
Not to mention SoB are explictly advertised as the "women and friends" faction. They're just as gender slanted as Space Marines but in the opposite direction.
The fact that you are elevating these as in some way a "balanced" faction suggests you're using "equal" to mean something entirely different to what the rest of us would understand it to be.

Since those male options are specific units can't one just opt to not take them? It's not as if the rank and file Sisters have male models in their midsts.
A closer equivalent would be if the Marines had some sort of auxiliary unit in their codex that had female models. Like, some sort of peasant unit or something.


Chapter servs you mean.

I know, I was being cheeky
I did write about including Chapter Serfs as part of a Space Marine force in the previous thread as a possible compromise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:02:31


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ie
Ruthless Rafkin





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Altima wrote:

Adepta Sororitas have 6 male options in a range of about 30 (3-4 of which came out fairly recently and several of their units pull double duty, such as your basic battle sister basically also being a retributor or dominion). So yes, that makes them one of the more equal gender represented armies on the tabletop and certainly out of the human factions. Even though they shouldn't be.

That's 80% female.
Not to mention SoB are explictly advertised as the "women and friends" faction. They're just as gender slanted as Space Marines but in the opposite direction.
The fact that you are elevating these as in some way a "balanced" faction suggests you're using "equal" to mean something entirely different to what the rest of us would understand it to be.

Since those male options are specific units can't one just opt to not take them? It's not as if the rank and file Sisters have male models in their midsts.


I've played 100% female SoB since 5th. Converted or model repped anything that I didn't have a female model for. It's only been recently I've had to make do with male models because I didn't have the same disposable income I did back then for conversions and had to make do with converting male models Crusaders and Acro-flaggelants


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Tiberias wrote:


I agree that Space Marines are a big part of the lore, but if that is the main issue...the issue of visibility, then I would argue and be totally for giving eldar, and badass female eldar more spots in the limelight. They have been neglected far too long anyway.


This discussion is specifically about implementing female space marines. I feel most people would agree with you on this, though. However, let's be realistic, female space marines are way more likely than GW moving away from the astartes as their poster children.

Even if they give a minor faction a day in the limelight, like they were doing with the SoB, that's no guarantee that interest in support in that army won't wane.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

To your first point: what's wrong with space marines being a male power fantasty. I've asked this before, but is it wrong to have an all male faction as a power fantasy for males, just as a general proposition? If not, why can't it be space marines. And if it's the issue of visibility and being in the limelight: I already said I am very much in favor of shifting the focus away from space marines to eldar for example.


It's a problem because space marines make up the majority of 40k. If Games Workshop renamed 40k to Warhammer: Space Marines and some Frenemies, they wouldn't exactly be incorrect. All most people are proposing that *in addition* to being a male power fantasy, that they open the doors to allow women to have the same one.

Unless we're saying that no girls allowed is an intrinsic part of the male power fantasy which has some uncomfortable implications.


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

As to your question of how I would implement female space marines: I wouldn't do it if it meant to just slap them into the lore like they always were there or something like cawl waved his magic wand again. If it was my job to implement them within the continuity of the existing lore I'd try to start small: I'd create a small short story in the space marine codex where a second founding chapter is struck by calamity and is now extremely short on aspirants. In their desperation they resort to implanting the gene seed of their primarch also into female aspirants, which goes horribly wrong for most. The lethality rate of female aspirants is higher than of male aspirants because the chance of rejecting the implants is a bit higher, a small very percentage of them survive though. This way the chapter can slowly start growing their numbers again. Other chapters and also the inquisition look curiously upon the successes of the chapter including female aspirants into their ranks.

Basically I'd start teasing it with shortstories sprinkled throughout multiple space marine codices and codex supplements. This is just from a storytelling perspective and just my personal opinion and I don't claim to be a good writer or storyteller. The main thing is, this takes time to set up. So far for the lore part.


I'm not sure. A short story being published to make it canonical wouldn't take that long to push out, especially if GW were to just tack it onto their website somewhere like they do with AoS and Necromunda. Still, just making it canon is what most people are asking for. Maaaaybe an extra head on the sprue, which we'll address with your next point.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So if you have set this up with multiple short stories over time, let's say we introduce models for female space marines: they are then of course created with the same process, so they have the same organs and stimulants pumped into them so they become hulking fighting machines, which would make sense. How do you translate that into models on a 28mm scale? If a female aspriant goes through the same process as her male counterparts, she is then also a hulking mountain of muscle. Would you even see a proper difference within their faces if their got pumped up by the same copious amounts of space steriods? Because changing the armor to be more traditionally feminine to clearly be able to differentiate them would not make much sense right? Both male and female aspirants who were able to survive would be hulking mountains of muscle pumped full of space steroids, you wouldn't even have a semblance of a female chest left because of the necessitiy of the black carapace, which is artificial.

So we've set it up over a period of time, hinting at small successes of also incoorporating female aspirants, but since they would go through the same process as the male counterparts, it would be difficult to represent the difference of male and female space marine on a 28mm scale because again, both would be hulking mountains of muscle pumped full of space steroids and extra organs.


So this is where it gets tricky since the lore is very inconsistent about Marines appearances post implantation. Looking at the poll, most people don't seem to be asking for boob armor, and most I've spoken to about female space marines would plan on having most of their girls helmeted. As far as how they should look, there's a couple of factors.

As I mentioned, the lore is inconsistent about how marines come out once they've been baked to a golden brown perfection. Some of the lore states that they come out as broad or almost deformed. On the other hand, some of the Blood Angels are said to be very pretty. And then there's how the Space Wolves come out.

And since these girls would be primaris, that adds more questions since primaris are better proportioned than the firstborn who are described as broader (like dwarves) than a proportioned human would be.

So to answer your question, probably normal primaris armor with heads somewhere between SoB and the current marines (bald or some stylized hair, bionics, battle scars, etc). What we're likely to get is slightly feminine a la AoS stormcaste armor and some obviously stylized but still also warrior intended hair styles (though probably not real world practical but when has that ever stopped GW--there's chainsaw swords for crying out loud).
   
Made in it
Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot





Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

Can you explain to me something?

Why, if you're not invested, interested or convinced that the problem is real, do you feel like you're the right person to find a solution for it?
I mean, I get why you can disagree with some changes (still I think you don't have sounded reason to do so, but it's comprehensible at least). But this is something different, because you're advocating for your solution, while it is not you problem.
Damn, someone even think it's not even a problem at all, yet engage in lengthy post to explain why the know the answer for a question that in their opinion don't exist... How is that motivated otherwise than ideologically?


Also: replying in place of others that have different ideas is both bad form and don't help people understand the discussion underneath: let people argument for themselves... they don't need your summaries, and we be discuss at length also without any gross approximation.


Also: someone mentioned newspeak entirely wrong. It's my favourite book, so let's be clear.
Newspeak isn't the creation of fictional issues and problems in order to manipulate people. (That's what you get if you read a summary,an not the book).
Newspeak is instead the quintessential of ideology, where any word need to be interpreted under the lens of "qui prodest" before acquiring meaning. The newspeak relies not changing the meaning od the words itself, but on the fact that the context is always fluid and any words takes meaning only within a certain context... change it and it makes impossible to give meaning to things.
Orwell don't speak only about politics:: it speak about the tragedy of language, the only tool human can use, and the only one that can't escape it's own recursion structure.
(I think you can get why it's so easily abused as concept). But I'll stop here, that's probably an entire different topic. Use

I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 kirotheavenger wrote:
Just because the lore has changed doesn't mean lore changing is a good thing.

So lore should have just remained as it was in the original Rogue Trader book? Fine by me, there is no restriction of marines only being male there.

   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Answering the latest Tiberias post:

They could write "Im a Woman" or "My name is Claudia" on their shoulderpads??

Its no about making sense in universe, its about making a point.

But there are already models to make that point? You know Marines aren't the only range in the hobby, and that GW has been making an effort to give Guardswomen and Sisters of Battle more of the spotlight?


For the FSM Crusaders the only faction that matters in 40k and that is a valid vessel for increasing female repressentation in the gamming community are the SM... Any suggestion otherwise and you will be framed in the "Misoginist and friends" oposition (which obviously includes both most of current 40k player base and GW itself, but that dosent matter for those following a rightgeous path).
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
Altima, aren't you missing the wytch cults which are predominantly female in the DE line up?


No, there's male wyches. Has been since the beginning, I believe. The succubus and Lelith are female, just like the the incubi and what'shisface are male. I don't think succubi are always female. Reavers, scourges, and the hoverboarders also have both male and female models.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Since those male options are specific units can't one just opt to not take them? It's not as if the rank and file Sisters have male models in their midsts.
A closer equivalent would be if the Marines had some sort of auxiliary unit in their codex that had female models. Like, some sort of peasant unit or something.


The discussion wasn't about if you can take a mixed gender army and make it monogendered. It was on what the current models have mixed gender (or mono gender in the case of ~24 armies).

Thematically, chapter serfs would step on the toes of Imperial Guard, so wouldn't be an optimal solution. If I recall, the serfs don't usually participate in pitched combat except in defense of space marine owned assets like ships or bases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:21:12


 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




Altima wrote:


So to answer your question, probably normal primaris armor with heads somewhere between SoB and the current marines (bald or some stylized hair, bionics, battle scars, etc). What we're likely to get is slightly feminine a la AoS stormcaste armor and some obviously stylized but still also warrior intended hair styles (though probably not real world practical but when has that ever stopped GW--there's chainsaw swords for crying out loud).



Ok, sure but why slightly feminie armor like AoS stormcast? You are right that not all space marines come out the same way when the conversion process is completed (blood angels, space wolves differences etc), but some things all space marines have, must have even. Like the black carapace to interface with their armor. This augmentation would delete any semblance of a female chest and therefore remove the need for slightly feminie armor á la stormcasts like you suggested, so I am just asking how would you see the difference if you ceep this logically consistent with the lore. The current faces of the space marines are broad slabs of meat, they are not pretty but they don't have to be, it fits their aesthetic. So if you include bald battle scarred faces that are a bid more slender to represent female space marines, how do you tell them apart on a 28mm scale when you also don't really have to change the armor to look more feminine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:24:00


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

 Cybtroll wrote:
Can you explain to me something?

Why, if you're not invested, interested or convinced that the problem is real, do you feel like you're the right person to find a solution for it?

We're not trying to find you a solution, we're telling you it's not a problem and that we don't want your 'solution'.

That's like telling me you need a solution for why my walls are painted such an ugly colour, and I shouldn't offer input if I think the walls are already fine.



Damn, someone even think it's not even a problem at all, yet engage in lengthy post to explain why the know the answer for a question that in their opinion don't exist... How is that motivated otherwise than ideologically?

Again, you don't just get to define something as a problem and use that to invalidate the opinion of anyone who doesn't agree it's a problem.
Our opinion is just as valid as yours, you say it is a problem, we say it isn't.
I don't agree that the colour of my walls is a problem, regardless of what you say.

Also, what are you even using "ideology" to mean? Because it doesn't seem have any meaning other than "is bad" the way you're using it, it's certainly quite divorced from the definition I shared earlier.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:20:53


 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





I feel like something got knocked around because none of those are things I've said to quote.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:20:45


 
   
Made in at
Dakka Veteran




 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I feel like something got knocked around because none of those are things I've said to quote.


He quoted me, something went wrong.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Altima wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Altima, aren't you missing the wytch cults which are predominantly female in the DE line up?


No, there's male wyches. Has been since the beginning, I believe. The succubus and Lelith are female, just like the the incubi and what'shisface are male. I don't think succubi are always female. Reavers, scourges, and the hoverboarders also have both male and female models.

I get the distinct impression that you're actually talking about "all female" not equal gender as you claim.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Altima wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Altima, aren't you missing the wytch cults which are predominantly female in the DE line up?


No, there's male wyches. Has been since the beginning, I believe. The succubus and Lelith are female, just like the the incubi and what'shisface are male. I don't think succubi are always female. Reavers, scourges, and the hoverboarders also have both male and female models.


I just counted it's 7 females to 3 males in the wych box.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Since those male options are specific units can't one just opt to not take them? It's not as if the rank and file Sisters have male models in their midsts.
A closer equivalent would be if the Marines had some sort of auxiliary unit in their codex that had female models. Like, some sort of peasant unit or something.


The discussion wasn't about if you can take a mixed gender army and make it monogendered. It was on what the current models have mixed gender (or mono gender in the case of ~24 armies).

Thematically, chapter serfs would step on the toes of Imperial Guard, so wouldn't be an optimal solution. If I recall, the serfs don't usually participate in pitched combat except in defense of space marine owned assets like ships or bases.

Don't the ultramarines use theirs in a quasi guard / solar auxilia type deal?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Just because the lore has changed doesn't mean lore changing is a good thing.

So lore should have just remained as it was in the original Rogue Trader book? Fine by me, there is no restriction of marines only being male there.


a bit a wierd argumentation. Rouge trader and indeed second edition were very much less and more unrefined to 3rd edition onwards where the background stabilised a lot.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:26:28


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Tiberias wrote:


Ok, sure but why slightly feminie armor like AoS stormcast? You are right that not all space marines come out the same way when the conversion process is completed (blood angels, space wolves differences etc), but some things all space marines have, must have even. Like the black carapace to interface with their armor. This augmentation would delete any semblance of a female chest and therefore remove the need for slightly feminie armor á la stormcasts like you suggested, so I am just asking how would you see the difference if you ceep this logically consistent with the lore. The current faces of the space marines are broad slabs of meat, they are not pretty but they don't have to be, it fits their aesthetic. So if you include bald battle scarred faces that are a bid more slender to represent female space marines, how do you tell them apart on a 28mm scale when you also don't really have to change the armor to look more feminine.


Preaching to the choir. Just saying that seems to be the wind blows for GW when it comes to armored female models. They feel the need to at least somewhat feminize the look, based off of what they provide for AoS and Necromunda. I'm all for just keeping the current armored look, but I doubt we would.

As for how they look different, I'll be honest. Everyone's marine armies look the same to me, apart from paint scheme--especially since they all love taking the same 3-4 core units. However, the people who own those armies identify them as 'their dudes'. They're important to those people. I'm fairly confident people will find ways to make them their own.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

 Crimson wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Just because the lore has changed doesn't mean lore changing is a good thing.

So lore should have just remained as it was in the original Rogue Trader book? Fine by me, there is no restriction of marines only being male there.

If you need to retreat over thirty years to make an argument perhaps you need to evaluate how convincing you think you sound.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Altima wrote:


Thematically, chapter serfs would step on the toes of Imperial Guard, so wouldn't be an optimal solution. If I recall, the serfs don't usually participate in pitched combat except in defense of space marine owned assets like ships or bases.

Perhaps, but they would also be a mirror to Chaos Cultists or Pox Walkers, which gameplay wise are chaff units in a "elite" army and would create something an interesting parallel between Chaos and Loyalist Marines.
Fluff wise it would make sense for Serfs to supplement Marine ground forces in cases where the Imperial Guard can't reach them in time. One of the criticisms of marine fluff that I noticed is that they don't actually have the numbers to carry out their missions, so Serfs could help remedy that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:34:16


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 kirotheavenger wrote:
Altima wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Altima, aren't you missing the wytch cults which are predominantly female in the DE line up?


No, there's male wyches. Has been since the beginning, I believe. The succubus and Lelith are female, just like the the incubi and what'shisface are male. I don't think succubi are always female. Reavers, scourges, and the hoverboarders also have both male and female models.

I get the distinct impression that you're actually talking about "all female" not equal gender as you claim.


Then you're incorrect or insincere. I was counting models, which are not debatable. The only pure female choices for DE are single characters. There's plenty of pure male choices (Archon, the shadow demon things, Haemonculi, arguably grotesques and wracks, incubi, what'shisface).

I'm also a little perplexed at this tangent into DE, who are by far the most mixed gendered army in 40k.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Vatsetis wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Vatsetis wrote:
Answering the latest Tiberias post:

They could write "Im a Woman" or "My name is Claudia" on their shoulderpads??

Its no about making sense in universe, its about making a point.

But there are already models to make that point? You know Marines aren't the only range in the hobby, and that GW has been making an effort to give Guardswomen and Sisters of Battle more of the spotlight?


For the FSM Crusaders the only faction that matters in 40k and that is a valid vessel for increasing female repressentation in the gamming community are the SM... Any suggestion otherwise and you will be framed in the "Misoginist and friends" oposition (which obviously includes both most of current 40k player base and GW itself, but that dosent matter for those following a rightgeous path).


On the contrary - if the ghost of Robin Williams poofed onto my doorstep and said

"Good news bad news champ I went to half-hell on account of being so funny, in half-hell you're not a slave to Satan Lord of Hell you're a contracted employee of Stan, Prince of Heck. Stan set me up with a Genie gig granting wishes but only relating to my old hobbies, so you're allowed to change any three things you'd like about 40k specifically, shoot!"

my three wishes would definitely set up the game to be an equitable, multiple factions-based setting with space marines and chaos space marines as ONE faction rather than the current 10/21 that they represent, and then this gak would be no issue at all. You'd have eldar, tau, sisters, dark eldar, all on the exact same footing as the marines and the chaos marines, getting the same amount of models, and roughly ~30% of the models released for the game would be female. That'd be perfectly fine to solve the issue of representation automatically.

But I know that's not going to happen. you know that's not going to happen. This "they just need to release models for other factions, bro!" line of defense is only ever thrown out there because the people who throw it out, know it isn't going to happen in a million years. They know GW is going to continue letting every other faction in the entire game share 30% of the model releases between them while space marines get half and Chaos Marines get 20%.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Tiberias wrote:

Ok, sure but why slightly feminie armor like AoS stormcast?

I don't want that and I don't think majority of people who want female Astartes want that, though of course some do. But it is possible that this is how GW would do it to mirror the Stotmcast. Personally I very much want them to have basically the same armour than the men. They're just marines that happen to female, not GIRL MARINES that are drastically different than BOY MARINES.

You are right that not all space marines come out the same way when the conversion process is completed (blood angels, space wolves differences etc), but some things all space marines have, must have even. Like the black carapace to interface with their armor. This augmentation would delete any semblance of a female chest and therefore remove the need for slightly feminie armor á la stormcasts like you suggested, so I am just asking how would you see the difference if you ceep this logically consistent with the lore. The current faces of the space marines are broad slabs of meat, they are not pretty but they don't have to be, it fits their aesthetic. So if you include bald battle scarred faces that are a bid more slender to represent female space marines, how do you tell them apart on a 28mm scale when you also don't really have to change the armor to look more feminine.

I'll repost the pic of my model:


This is roughly how I'd do it along with official recognition that female marines are possible. Just faces with slightly more feminine features. It doesn't need to be super apparent. Women in combat gear are not that distinguishable from men, and bio-engineered women in power armour even less so. And that's fine. You cant tell the genders of Tau apart when their helmets are on either, nor Cadians if they wear gasmasks and goggles. Having some bare female heads you can occasionally use is enough.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:
Just because the lore has changed doesn't mean lore changing is a good thing.

So lore should have just remained as it was in the original Rogue Trader book? Fine by me, there is no restriction of marines only being male there.

If you need to retreat over thirty years to make an argument perhaps you need to evaluate how convincing you think you sound.

So tell me then when was the lore perfected, and after which no changes should have been made? Give the date.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:36:15


   
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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Perhaps, but they would also be a mirror to Chaos Cultists or Pox Walkers, which gameplay wise are chaff units in a "elite" army.
Fluff wise it would make sense for Serfs to supplement Marine ground forces in cases where the Imperial Guard can't reach them in time. One of the criticisms of marine fluff that I noticed is that they don't actually have the numbers to carry out their missions, so Serfs could help remedy that.


And if Chaos had a proper mortals army, pox walkers and cultists would step on their toes. But they don't, so those units don't have to compete in the creative space. Instead, chaos is CSM with everything tacked on (or daemons).

Boy do I wish we had traitor guard and dark mechanicus and mutants... Maybe one day.
   
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Altima wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Perhaps, but they would also be a mirror to Chaos Cultists or Pox Walkers, which gameplay wise are chaff units in a "elite" army.
Fluff wise it would make sense for Serfs to supplement Marine ground forces in cases where the Imperial Guard can't reach them in time. One of the criticisms of marine fluff that I noticed is that they don't actually have the numbers to carry out their missions, so Serfs could help remedy that.


And if Chaos had a proper mortals army, pox walkers and cultists would step on their toes. But they don't, so those units don't have to compete in the creative space. Instead, chaos is CSM with everything tacked on (or daemons).

Boy do I wish we had traitor guard and dark mechanicus and mutants... Maybe one day.


WE HAD !
FFS

feth YOU GW.


sorry. it still makes me mad.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Altima wrote:
Tiberias wrote:


Ok, sure but why slightly feminie armor like AoS stormcast? You are right that not all space marines come out the same way when the conversion process is completed (blood angels, space wolves differences etc), but some things all space marines have, must have even. Like the black carapace to interface with their armor. This augmentation would delete any semblance of a female chest and therefore remove the need for slightly feminie armor á la stormcasts like you suggested, so I am just asking how would you see the difference if you ceep this logically consistent with the lore. The current faces of the space marines are broad slabs of meat, they are not pretty but they don't have to be, it fits their aesthetic. So if you include bald battle scarred faces that are a bid more slender to represent female space marines, how do you tell them apart on a 28mm scale when you also don't really have to change the armor to look more feminine.


Preaching to the choir. Just saying that seems to be the wind blows for GW when it comes to armored female models. They feel the need to at least somewhat feminize the look, based off of what they provide for AoS and Necromunda. I'm all for just keeping the current armored look, but I doubt we would.

As for how they look different, I'll be honest. Everyone's marine armies look the same to me, apart from paint scheme--especially since they all love taking the same 3-4 core units. However, the people who own those armies identify them as 'their dudes'. They're important to those people. I'm fairly confident people will find ways to make them their own.


Yeah no I'm not disputing that people will make models their own and there is nothing wrong with that. But we were arguing from an official lore standpoint. And if we adhere to those lore points we just established, I don't see how you could easily differentiate between male and female marines on a 28mm scale, which brings in the question on whether it is necessary to have distinct models.
Which in turn brings the question as to whether the lore to establish female Marines, like we just discussed, would be enough to satisfy those who argue for more inclusion especially regarding marines.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Tiberias wrote:


Yeah no I'm not disputing that people will make models their own and there is nothing wrong with that. But we were arguing from an official lore standpoint. And if we adhere to those lore points we just established, I don't see how you could easily differentiate between male and female marines on a 28mm scale, which brings in the question on whether it is necessary to have distinct models.
Which in turn brings the question as to whether the lore to establish female Marines, like we just discussed, would be enough to satisfy those who argue for more inclusion especially regarding marines.


Taking a quick perusal through the smurf catalogue on the GW website, not every marine face is a slab of meat. Many of them look quite normal such as the executioner. The Primaris Librarian even has a well groomed beard. Crimson has even graciously provided a custom example.

So yes, the face can be made to be obviously feminine and should. As stated, even in firstborn, how they come out is radically inconsistent especially when we throw in Blood Angels who are often described as pretty. The marines may supposed to come out looking deformed, but that is in no way reflected on the models.

At least for primaris, which these would be. I'm unaware if these's been anything officially stated about how primaris heads look different. As said before, the proportions are better, so I imagine they should look less deformed. Regardless, the current trend GW has is to make them recognizably human and heroic, so there's no reason for them not to do the same with a hypothetical female space marine release.
   
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Bristol (UK)

 Crimson wrote:

So tell me then when was the lore perfected, and after which no changes should have been made? Give the date.

Perfected? Never, perfection is an impossible pursuit.
When would I concrete the lore? The day I entered the hobby, because then the lore was in a state I liked.
After which would no changes have been made? Define change, retcons - no. Silly, shoehorned additions? No. Logical and awesome expansions? Definitely.
Primaris are a silly shoehorned addition, they also arguably include some retcons.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:


WE HAD !
FFS

feth YOU GW.


sorry. it still makes me mad.


You mean lost and the damned, or did I miss something fun?

'cause LatD...I mean, yeeeeeah, kinda, but not really, y'know? I'd want it done properly. Less "sacrifice me!", more "hey, we're a professional army like the blood pact!"

But hey, if that's how you feel about these guys, that's how some people feel about female space marines.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Crimson wrote:

I'll repost the pic of my model:



That was your model?

Interesting! I saw that pop up on an fb group I follow - it's a statuesque minis head, right?

I thought it was a bit of a coincidence that model popped up at the same time as all these threads.

Anyways, I thought, and think its a bloody nice model-said as much over there.previously I'd always preferred the idea of slightly feminising the armour - I tend to prefer leaner, more 'realistic proportions anyway than the 'bulk' look so phobos armour is a better fit for me anyway.

https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-female-armored-soldier-173944

But that mini of yours kinda sold me on the idea that a headswap can work and can do a nice job. I think the scale needs to be 'heroic' and they need the gorget at the base of the head to fit it in to the rest of the marine model, which is something I've not seen on a lot of headswaps to date. But that's another topic.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/15 12:58:09


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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Deadnight wrote:

Interesting! I saw that pop up on an fb group I follow

The Primaris Marine group? They deleted it.

- it's a statuesque minis head, right?

Yep.

I thought it was a bit of a coincidence that model popped up at the same time as all these threads.

It was no coincidence, I took the pic to post in anothet thread on the topic here, and as I already had it, I posted it on FB as well.

But that mini of yours kinda sold me on the idea that a headswap can work and can do a nice job. I think the scale needs to be 'heroic' and they need the gorget at the base of the head to fit it in to the rest of the marine model, which is something I've not seen on a lot of headswaps to date. But that's another topic.

A lot of headswaps look weird, because the heads are too dainty. There really aren't many GW female heads that work, perhaps some Stormcast ones do, but they don't have proper neck either. Seeing people do models with these Statuesque heads that are specifically scaled to be bulkier is what convince me to finally add some female marines.

   
 
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