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How should female marines be added to the lore?
Add female pronouns and remove anything denying female marines, otherwise leave it untouched.
Amend the lore to suggest that space marines have always included women
Amend the lore to suggest space marines have always included women, but they look like the men, so are usually mistaken for male marines
Add to the lore to say that Cawl found a way to make the process work for women
Don't add female marines.

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Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Technically the whole "women SM didn't sell" is not confirmed as the source is one ex-GW employee who also apparently isn't known for being truthful.
If multiple ex-employees were saying it I'd be more inclined to believe it.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Does it matter? I'm inclined to believe it purely based on the time. Meaning the 80's, when any sort of miniature hobby was even more male-dominated than it is now.

Regardless of the reason, the matter still stands that Games Workshop did at one point produce female space marine miniatures.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Mr. Grey wrote:
GW absolutely made female space marine minis in the 80's. When you bought a pack of 3 random space marines, there was a chance at getting a female space marine
You don't happen to have one of these blister packs do you?

The marines from 87-88 were the RT01 / 101 line
http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/c100sms/fly8899rt3f-rt101-01.jpg

The female power armoured figures (Jayne and Gabs) were the 1988 RT601 adventurers (sold in blisters of 5 models)
http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rt601adv/wd099p07rt601adventurersx-01.jpg

Seems odd they would have sold mixed-line blisters, they wouldn't even have been part of the same casting.
(10x marines, 20x orks, 30x squats, 40x eldar, 50x guard, 60x various)

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 16:45:25


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Insularum wrote:

This isn't remotely true. A huge, HUGE majority of conflicts in the Imperium don't involve space marines at all. Space marines don't deploy in entire armies for every car park punch up like GW would have you believe. They're a strike force that sends a few dudes to go make surgical strikes if they feel inclined and are in the area. If Marines didn't exist all that would happen is it would cost more resources to do the same job and the Inperium isn't exactly short of resources.
The Great Crusade begs to differ.
The Great Crusade and the subsequent Heresy is exactly why the marines take such a limited part in the overall Imperial war machine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 16:43:18


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

I feel like selling female space marines just because, is a stupid reason. also it would invalidate the reasoning for having adepta sororitas.

We have an all male adeptus in the space marines, and we have a female in the sororitas.
adding females to space marines is like adding men to sisters of battle.

It looks stupid, the majority at best, dont give a damn, and it would be a big difference in terms of all the sculpt kits that needs to be redone, just to appease a very very small amount of people who happen to be woke.

I guess it could work in the lore. but who cares?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 16:51:02


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Space Marines are not heroes. The Imperium is not a heroic organization. It's a fascist religious dictatorship, and space marines are their special military force. The fact that there are no female space marines should be played up on in the lore as another reason that the Imperium is not a rational, logical, enlightened form of government, but instead a deeply oppressive, hidebound institution.

I am all for better representation where it makes sense, but the Imperium is not supposed to be an organization you look up to as an exemplar of equal opportunity. They're not the good guys, at least they weren't supposed to be. To the extent that GW is trying to rehabilitate the Imperium and make it into the good goods, that's really genuinely problematic in terms of our current values, much more so than having a deeply oppressive dictatorship not be a paragon of gender equality.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 18:08:51


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes an aspirant. After the organ implantation process begins he becomes an neophyte. When the final implant is in place and the requisite training and hypnotherapy underway, he becomes a full brother.

However, as already noted, current fluff doesn't say this, and haven't done so for almost twenty years. And last time GW reproduced the article with this quote, they specifically stated that it is out of date and might not reflect the current lore.

   
Made in ca
Hacking Interventor





Adepta Sororitas are a more specific, fleshed out faction with a lot of personality to them and a much more specific aesthetic. Plus I wouldn't be opposed to sticking males in there for consistency's sake.

Space Marines are a blank slate you can customize in any way you want, any culture, color, or bizarre genetic configuration, but for some reason they canonically lack a gender select switch, and this makes zero sense. A Space Wolf Shieldmaiden, for example, would not be the same thing as a Sister of Battle, and there is no reason to lump them into the same bucket just because they would have two X chromosomes and power armor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 18:14:21


"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes an aspirant. After the organ implantation process begins he becomes an neophyte. When the final implant is in place and the requisite training and hypnotherapy underway, he becomes a full brother.

However, as already noted, current fluff doesn't say this, and haven't done so for almost twenty years. And last time GW reproduced the article with this quote, they specifically stated that it is out of date and might not reflect the current lore.


At the risk of sounding aggressive. Citation needed. You're going to need to back that one up with a screenshot.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Grimtuff wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes an aspirant. After the organ implantation process begins he becomes an neophyte. When the final implant is in place and the requisite training and hypnotherapy underway, he becomes a full brother.

However, as already noted, current fluff doesn't say this, and haven't done so for almost twenty years. And last time GW reproduced the article with this quote, they specifically stated that it is out of date and might not reflect the current lore.


At the risk of sounding aggressive. Citation needed. You're going to need to back that one up with a screenshot.
If you looked at my links, the warhammer community article was from November 16th 2019.... Right here

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 18:23:22


 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Sledgehammer wrote:
"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes an aspirant. After the organ implantation process begins he becomes an neophyte. When the final implant is in place and the requisite training and hypnotherapy underway, he becomes a full brother.

However, as already noted, current fluff doesn't say this, and haven't done so for almost twenty years. And last time GW reproduced the article with this quote, they specifically stated that it is out of date and might not reflect the current lore.


At the risk of sounding aggressive. Citation needed. You're going to need to back that one up with a screenshot.
If you looked at my links, the warhammer community article was from November 16th 2019.... Right here


Which luckily has the Editor's Note stating that it is out of date and might not reflect the current lore.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






*2016. And it specifically contains a caveat that the information contained is from an old publication and that content has been amended and updated since the initial publishing of Index Astartes 1 in 2002.
As soon as I figure out how to add a screenshot I'll get Codex: Space Marines 9th Edition "The Creation of a Space Marine" page on here.
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Gert wrote:
*2016. And it specifically contains a caveat that the information contained is from an old publication and that content has been amended and updated since the initial publishing of Index Astartes 1 in 2002.
As soon as I figure out how to add a screenshot I'll get Codex: Space Marines 9th Edition "The Creation of a Space Marine" page on here.
That's really all i've ever seen of this. Unless you can provide a more updated version that DIRECTLY contradicts space marines only being men, (not simply a lack of mention in regrades to sex) then i'll concede. As is I've never seen a single piece of lore that has indicated females can become space marines.

My comments on faction identity and fraternal / soritorial orders remain nonetheless. If you want Female space marines they should absolutely not be Adeptus Astates. The sisters is far more fitting.

my bad on the date.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 18:50:45


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

After the return of sisters of battle we don't need female space marines.

I love me some female stormcast but yeah. Just look at the 9th edition cinematic. Sisters of Battle ARE for all effects female space marines.

Now I'll say all "biological" explanations for why all SM need to be male are just stupid from a fluff perspective in the context of a scifi universe were things like Orks or Kroot exist. Back in the day GW writters wanted something that sounded minimally plausible and they used that excuse. So theres no reason to take it as some sacred piece of fluff.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 19:01:04


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






Bingo Bongo. One single reference to sex or gender with the term "Gene-Sons".
Spoiler:
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Gert wrote:
*2016. And it specifically contains a caveat that the information contained is from an old publication and that content has been amended and updated since the initial publishing of Index Astartes 1 in 2002.
As soon as I figure out how to add a screenshot I'll get Codex: Space Marines 9th Edition "The Creation of a Space Marine" page on here.
And that's really all i've ever seen of this. Unless you can provide a more updated version that DIRECTLY contradicts space marines only being men, (not simply a lack of mention in regrades to sex) then i'll concede. As is I've never seen a single piece of lore that has indicated females can become space marines.

My comments on faction identity and fraternal / soritorial orders remain nonetheless. If you want Female space marines they should absolutely not be Adeptus Astates. The sisters is far more fitting.


From Ashes of Prospero, by Gav Thorpe
‘Just give us strong, smart and brave lads and the Sons of Russ will endure.’

‘Just sons?’ said Tyra, her humour edged with a hard look. ‘Perhaps there is more water that must learn to flow.’

Arjac looked at this fierce woman, the sharp spear held easily in her hand, and recalled that she had overcome her fear not with psychodoctrination but raw courage. She had been the first to run to aid him against the wyrm, whether he needed her or not. The spirit of Fenris was in all of its people, elder and child, man and woman. He had seen first-hand that Roboute Guilliman had brought back miracle warriors from the time of the Allfather Abroad. Space Marines moulded from even sharper steel. If that was possible, anything was. He laughed at the thought.

Tyra frowned at him, thinking he mocked her. He calmed his humour and bowed his head in apology, eyes never leaving hers.

‘Perhaps,’ he said.


Suggests that if the Space Marine process *is* still male only, either Arjac Rockfist is unaware of that fact or thinks it can be overcome.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
After the return of sisters of battle we don't need female space marines.
.

Since eldar exist, we also don't need imperial guard.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Cronch wrote:
 Galas wrote:
After the return of sisters of battle we don't need female space marines.
.

Since eldar exist, we also don't need imperial guard.


Since strawmen exist, we don't need scarecrows...



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Just say Cawl did it and give me a patrol box with head swaps. I will re-buy an entire army for that.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I believe that by existing female space marines would make sisters of battle less unique.

What I really want are FEMALE Adeptus Custodes. Give me some Fate/Zero Saber fantasy yelling Scaribar while yetting a keeper of secrets to outer space.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Galas wrote:
I believe that by existing female space marines would make sisters of battle less unique.

What I really want are FEMALE Adeptus Custodes. Give me some Fate/Zero Saber fantasy yelling Scaribar while yetting a keeper of secrets to outer space.


This is when it'll get weird, because you say that and then they'll argue because they're not a flagship faction that it's not good enough. That plus Custodes being all male helps validate some posters' perception of the Emperor being a mysogynistic character.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 19:05:48


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





 Galas wrote:
After the return of sisters of battle we don't need female space marines.

I love me some female stormcast but yeah. Just look at the 9th edition cinematic. Sisters of Battle ARE for all effects female space marines.

Now I'll say all "biological" explanations for why all SM need to be male are just stupid from a fluff perspective in the context of a scifi universe were things like Orks or Kroot exist. Back in the day GW writters wanted something that sounded minimally plausible and they used that excuse. So theres no reason to take it as some sacred piece of fluff.
It serves more as a explanation within the lore to justify one position vs the other. The meat of the argument is IMO one around faction identity and themes such as militant orders of battle. Templars and nuns with guns don't work if you let anybody join.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 19:07:06


 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






 Sledgehammer wrote:
 Galas wrote:
After the return of sisters of battle we don't need female space marines.

I love me some female stormcast but yeah. Just look at the 9th edition cinematic. Sisters of Battle ARE for all effects female space marines.

Now I'll say all "biological" explanations for why all SM need to be male are just stupid from a fluff perspective in the context of a scifi universe were things like Orks or Kroot exist. Back in the day GW writters wanted something that sounded minimally plausible and they used that excuse. So theres no reason to take it as some sacred piece of fluff.
It serves more as a explanation within the lore to justify one position vs the other. The meat of the argument is IMO one around faction identity and themes such as militant orders of battle. Templars and nuns with guns don't work if you let anybody join.


Unfortunately, even the idea of exclusivity seems to be taboo nowadays for some reason, even if its for thematic and faction-building reasons.
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




yukishiro1 wrote:
Space Marines are not heroes. The Imperium is not a heroic organization. It's a fascist religious dictatorship, and space marines are their special military force. The fact that there are no female space marines should be played up on in the lore as another reason that the Imperium is not a rational, logical, enlightened form of government, but instead a deeply oppressive, hidebound institution.

I am all for better representation where it makes sense, but the Imperium is not supposed to be an organization you look up to as an exemplar of equal opportunity. They're not the good guys, at least they weren't supposed to be. To the extent that GW is trying to rehabilitate the Imperium and make it into the good goods, that's really genuinely problematic in terms of our current values, much more so than having a deeply oppressive dictatorship not be a paragon of gender equality.


Imagine that when in another thread I suggested that FSM could be introduce by Fabius Bile and later copied by the Imperium... Some argue that introducing FSM throught a "mad scientist" from an "evil faction" was against the spirit of FSM... Which should only be introduce by "not mad, not evil" entities like Cawl and the Imperium.

Apparently the IOM shouldnt be oppresive in any sense to any current day real life indentity (except working people, those can suffer without remorse)... for the advocates of FSM making the IOM look as the good guys dosent matter or is needed in favour of a greater good.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 19:17:26


 
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






So y'all just going to ignore how your argument about "males only" isn't supported beyond one term in the 9th Ed Codex?
Also, Vatsetis please don't misrepresent my posts on other threads. If people would like to read what Vatsetis is talking about you can find the posts in the last pages of the "Heresy of the worst kind" thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/13 19:23:27


 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




At the middle of page 67 of that thread is where the polemic reference by Gert starts.

Cawl was actually describe as fundamentally distinct in a moral sense from Bile... Endorsing the problematic narrative that as protagonist the IOM and the loyalist marines are the default good guys while their antagonist are only evil doers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 19:52:05


 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




Beardedragon wrote:

adding females to space marines is like


There’s another thread for talking about whether you think it’s a good idea. It got locked, you can’t post in it, and that’s not the topic of this thread.

I hope Gert and Crimson and anyone else will not talk about whether it’s a good idea. For purposes of this thread, and this thread only, we are taking as given that it may happen someday.

You’re just talking about stuff for a different thread. A thread that’s locked, so there’s nowhere for you to talk about it, except facebook or discord or something
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





I've said it before, I've said it again.

We already have Sisters, who're a thousands times more interesting in terms of lore and visuals than Space Marines. No need to risk diluting Sisters (of Battle and to a lesser degree, Silence) and ensuring they're relegated to the same Background Red Shirt status as the Imperial Guard than by having GW make female Space Marines.
   
Made in gb
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!






I'm not airing an opinion here.
In fact, you'll specifically see that all I have posted is a request for confirmation that GW doesn't focus on SM Aspirants being male-only, asked Vatsetis not to misrepresent what I posted in the thread that did contain the discussion, and how I best think female SM would be introduced back on page 1 which is the point of this thread.
Interesting that you singled me out though when there have been multiple posters giving their arguments against the introduction of female SM despite that being specifically not asked for in the OP's post.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/13 20:00:32


 
   
Made in us
Splattered With Acrylic Paint




 Arbitrator wrote:
I've said it before, I've said it again.

We already have Sisters,



Quote the part of the OP where somebody asked you. Nobody asked, in this thread, for anyone’s opinions on sisters or on women being in the space marines.
   
 
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