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I dunno where the assumption our melee will be worse comes from.

AP1 on choppas, extra attack, str, advance and charge on waagh, sustained hits with the waaagh tribe rule, attack on death stratagem, 1+ to hit and wound buff from ghaz and an increase on the boyz save to boot. Seems like a lot of potential and there's more buffs to be seen yet.

Snaggas went up in save, we don't know that for Boyz yet.

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno where the assumption our melee will be worse comes from.

AP1 on choppas, extra attack, str, advance and charge on waagh, sustained hits with the waaagh tribe rule, attack on death stratagem, 1+ to hit and wound buff from ghaz and an increase on the boyz save to boot. Seems like a lot of potential and there's more buffs to be seen yet.

Our melee stayed basically unchanged from what we've seen from infantry, just the nerfs to engagement range and not having the +1 str on the charge to go along with sus hits like we do with current goffs. On the flip side our big things like stompa and garg squig got a lot better in melee so if I'd guess might just be a bit of shift of what we use for our melee threats. Curious how the killrigs will be now after seeing the garg squig.

 flaming tadpole wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno where the assumption our melee will be worse comes from.

AP1 on choppas, extra attack, str, advance and charge on waagh, sustained hits with the waaagh tribe rule, attack on death stratagem, 1+ to hit and wound buff from ghaz and an increase on the boyz save to boot. Seems like a lot of potential and there's more buffs to be seen yet.

Our melee stayed basically unchanged from what we've seen from infantry, just the nerfs to engagement range and not having the +1 str on the charge to go along with sus hits like we do with current goffs. On the flip side our big things like stompa and garg squig got a lot better in melee so if I'd guess might just be a bit of shift of what we use for our melee threats. Curious how the killrigs will be now after seeing the garg squig.

Im curious about everything really. I dont feel any sadness or anger or annoyance with orks atm, i just cant wait to see our remaining stat profiles, and the point costs.

The only thing that makes me sad is that there is nothing buffing ork shooting, as is orks is meant to be a melee only faction and not a versatile one. I have no doubt they will touch upon that when our.. "codex" is dropped, if you can even call it a codex anymore. But those extra rules anyway. Surely that will touch upon that so it doesnt bother me too much. But it would be great if it werent just half our army that got meaningful buffs.


So here is to hope that Ork shooting is also relevant already now.

Im also getting the vibe that you could easily run Zagstruk and Mozzie in the same army now due to loss of actual klans? Thats a pretty good positive for me right there. If mozzie, snikrot and zagstruk keep good profiles, we will have some good characters to field.

Yeah, the main thing that's good about them scrapping the klan keywords and abilities is that you aren't locked out of taking characters in most instances anymore (barring certain detachments I assume that will be later released in our codex), there's been many times I've been interested in taking Grotsnik or Snikrot but I can't warrant an entire detachment dedicated to just them.

Personally, I'm just interested in seeing what else we can bring that's different from the lists we see now in 9th, since it seems like they're trying to promote more combined arms lists compared to before where it was basically just spam best unit X and Y until you win.

 flaming tadpole wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno where the assumption our melee will be worse comes from.

AP1 on choppas, extra attack, str, advance and charge on waagh, sustained hits with the waaagh tribe rule, attack on death stratagem, 1+ to hit and wound buff from ghaz and an increase on the boyz save to boot. Seems like a lot of potential and there's more buffs to be seen yet.

Our melee stayed basically unchanged from what we've seen from infantry, just the nerfs to engagement range and not having the +1 str on the charge to go along with sus hits like we do with current goffs. On the flip side our big things like stompa and garg squig got a lot better in melee so if I'd guess might just be a bit of shift of what we use for our melee threats. Curious how the killrigs will be now after seeing the garg squig.

Worse, basically the same. Come on ya grot, make up your mind!

But we've only seen a slice of what orks have, there could very well be a detachment rule that provides significant buffs to shooting. Or perhaps the other meks will offer good benifits to the various dakka platforms.

Though, yes first and foremost I would rather us be a combat army with some shooting support than a shooting army with some combat.

.

Beardedragon wrote:
The only thing that makes me sad is that there is nothing buffing ork shooting

Poor Mek. Everyone keeps forgetting him.

Doubt we´ll get some infantry specific boosts though

I have assembled and primed my old 5th edition Mek specifically because of this rule!

 Scactha wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The only thing that makes me sad is that there is nothing buffing ork shooting

Poor Mek. Everyone keeps forgetting him.

Doubt we´ll get some infantry specific boosts though

Yea im not gonna call buffs for shooting, because a single mek character gives +1 to hit for shooting. Its nice and all.

Im talking about actual army wide buffs or a waaagh actually being helpful for shooting.

 Bonde wrote:
I have assembled and primed my old 5th edition Mek specifically because of this rule!

Ah, great that you reminded me - I have an ancient "Big Mek with KMB" model lying broken in my bitz box. Time to glue his arms back on, he finally has a reason to exist.

In other news, GT is banning Aeldari..

I am actually curious for our anti-vehicle/monster threats.

Boy's and support cause i am not into beast snagga

Squig boys/warbikers/storm boyz... rigs/buggies/flyers/walkers and nobz meganobz... not sure i care for the wagon but i am looking at trukks maybe

I am not seeing myself playing any of the big boys any time soon.. so i am paying attention how they do in tournaments

Rest i am more fluff player, i do enjoy when me boys know how to use their legs, but footslogging wont work this edition too.

Forceride wrote:
In other news, GT is banning Aeldari..

I am actually curious for our anti-vehicle/monster threats.

Boy's and support cause i am not into beast snagga

Squig boys/warbikers/storm boyz... rigs/buggies/flyers/walkers and nobz meganobz... not sure i care for the wagon but i am looking at trukks maybe

I am not seeing myself playing any of the big boys any time soon.. so i am paying attention how they do in tournaments

Rest i am more fluff player, i do enjoy when me boys know how to use their legs, but footslogging wont work this edition too.

I imagine squighogs will be passable against light vehicles, and Smasha Squigs will probably do a decent amount of MWs so they'll likely be okay at anti-everything duties to a small extent.

In terms of melee we're likely looking at Warbosses, Squigbosses, Dreads and massed PKs to deal with vehicles and monsters, excluding super heavy options. That or the unfortunate scenario of having to grind through vehicles with massed choppas.

Ranged; I'd imagine shokk attack guns, mek guns and Wazboms will be the big hitters unless gunwagons suddenly aren't garbage. The main decider will be whether rokkits are usable.

Looking at how both Eldar and Imperial missile launchers are S9 AP-2 D6 damage, I assume ours will be S9 AP-2 3 damage a pop. Which isn't great, but it'll largely depend on if our weapons are still Heavy D3. My bigger concern if they are heavy weapons is that they'll make them BS6+ base to try and make us stay still to use to get back to our OG BS.

Personally, I'd like it for it to be Assault D3, but that isn't probable given how GW have been handling most anti-tank weapons. I'm more curious to see if Killsaws are just chainfists with twinlinked when you have a pair or if we get something different since they've always just kind of been a power klaw with more AP but variable damage.

Gosh, wouldn't it be amazing if Rokkits stayed BS5+ with heavy, just imagine that level of accuracy

cody.d. wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I dunno where the assumption our melee will be worse comes from.

AP1 on choppas, extra attack, str, advance and charge on waagh, sustained hits with the waaagh tribe rule, attack on death stratagem, 1+ to hit and wound buff from ghaz and an increase on the boyz save to boot. Seems like a lot of potential and there's more buffs to be seen yet.

Our melee stayed basically unchanged from what we've seen from infantry, just the nerfs to engagement range and not having the +1 str on the charge to go along with sus hits like we do with current goffs. On the flip side our big things like stompa and garg squig got a lot better in melee so if I'd guess might just be a bit of shift of what we use for our melee threats. Curious how the killrigs will be now after seeing the garg squig.

Worse, basically the same. Come on ya grot, make up your mind!

But we've only seen a slice of what orks have, there could very well be a detachment rule that provides significant buffs to shooting. Or perhaps the other meks will offer good benifits to the various dakka platforms.

Though, yes first and foremost I would rather us be a combat army with some shooting support than a shooting army with some combat.

Well same when others been going down isn't thaj bad thing.

As for other det's that's with codex much later. Index comes with 1 already known.

+1 BS on BS5 is literally a 50% increase to shooting output.

It's double on BS6.

I'm gonna say the Mek is probably what you should be looking at.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, the main thing that's good about them scrapping the klan keywords and abilities is that you aren't locked out of taking characters in most instances anymore (barring certain detachments I assume that will be later released in our codex), there's been many times I've been interested in taking Grotsnik or Snikrot but I can't warrant an entire detachment dedicated to just them.

Personally, I'm just interested in seeing what else we can bring that's different from the lists we see now in 9th, since it seems like they're trying to promote more combined arms lists compared to before where it was basically just spam best unit X and Y until you win.

ya same I’m stoked to be able to play whatever mashup of characters I want.

Also nids be looking kinda scary, seems like half our army will be battleshocked at all times against them lol. Good to see old one eye finally get a decent data sheet though, old timer has had it rough for a while.

Random thoughts after reading the nid index:

- We might get lucky and have shoota boyz and choppa boyz as separate datasheets with separate abilities
- Leaders are very restricted in what they can join. I expect all former upgrade characters to go back to being locked to their respective squads.
- Not all leaders match their entourage's toughness, some are explicitly made in a way that they can operate both with and without a unit (looking at you, wartrike)
- Looking at nobz, I doubt anything but klaw, killsaw, big choppa and choppa will survive as options.
- The heavy weapon type is used very sparingly, usually only when they want to explicitly encourage units to remain stationary. I wouldn't expect it outside of main guns on vehicles and flash gits. Lootas are a big maybe.
- Tellyporta could come back as an enhancement
- After seeing so many units having their maximum size reduced, I'm almost certain that boyz will be reduced to 20.
- All the small stuff is battleline despite the preview. It's looking good for gretchin.

 Jidmah wrote:
Random thoughts after reading the nid index:

- We might get lucky and have shoota boyz and choppa boyz as separate datasheets with separate abilities
- Leaders are very restricted in what they can join. I expect all former upgrade characters to go back to being locked to their respective squads.
- Not all leaders match their entourage's toughness, some are explicitly made in a way that they can operate both with and without a unit (looking at you, wartrike)
- Looking at nobz, I doubt anything but klaw, killsaw, big choppa and choppa will survive as options.
- The heavy weapon type is used very sparingly, usually only when they want to explicitly encourage units to remain stationary. I wouldn't expect it outside of main guns on vehicles and flash gits. Lootas are a big maybe.
- Tellyporta could come back as an enhancement
- After seeing so many units having their maximum size reduced, I'm almost certain that boyz will be reduced to 20.
- All the small stuff is battleline despite the preview. It's looking good for gretchin.

Yeah, poor Tyranid Warriors got absolutely shredded in terms of their weapon options, particularly the CC variant.

For Nobz and Meganobz, I'm very, very curious to see what happens to our Kombi-Weapons, because based on what happened to SM and their combi weapons, they no longer have multiple profiles but just one type with devastating wounds and anti-infantry 4+. I'm unsure if we'll follow the exact same formatting when it comes to consolidating our kombi-weapons. If so, I think we'll definitely be missing our kombi skorchas since they were a way around our poor BS.

I'm also interested to see if Nobz have a more relevant version of "Crackin' Eads" or if they just get an offensive buff now instead.

A week away till we get our index right? Damn I'm curious to see what we get. The powerful and janky opportunities it gives us. Will dreadmob be a thing? It's probably the ork archetype I'm most interested in running, just cause I'd adore an excuse to get more copies of the dread kit and mess around with all it's options.

Same with mek conversions. You can do a lot with a nob body and some bitz.

Okay, so a glance at the index has raised a worry. So far only one detachment rule, I'm assuming the codex will bring more but that means it's exploding 6s in combat only for a while.

cody.d. wrote:
A week away till we get our index right? Damn I'm curious to see what we get. The powerful and janky opportunities it gives us. Will dreadmob be a thing? It's probably the ork archetype I'm most interested in running, just cause I'd adore an excuse to get more copies of the dread kit and mess around with all it's options.

Same with mek conversions. You can do a lot with a nob body and some bitz.

Okay, so a glance at the index has raised a worry. So far only one detachment rule, I'm assuming the codex will bring more but that means it's exploding 6s in combat only for a while.

Advance and charge for everything definitely makes Dred Mob more viable than last edition, since it won't just be the 5+ invuln and +1A that we'll benefit from now.

The bigger question will be if the KFF is actually worth taking and can make an impact on protection that lasts beyond just 1 turn. Meks seem to be giving decent buffs now, so having one hide behind a Morkanaut seems ideal, but the rest is contingent on points and how GW makes up for the lack of ramshackle since I presume that as a rule will be gone since most -1D abilities are locked behind strats now. Killa Kanz should be T7 if Sentinels are anything to go by and I presume Deff Dreads are T9. Hopefully that means Gork/Mork are T12 at the very least.

 Jidmah wrote:

- Looking at nobz, I doubt anything but klaw, killsaw, big choppa and choppa will survive as options.

May I ask why? The box (and the configurations featured on the box) show Kombi weapons, and it includes the ammo grot.

I'd imagine kombi weapons will be made into one profile? I could also see it being changed to choppa, nob weapons and klaw only.

thatd be weird even for GW to drop kombi weapons for nobz.
The kit has several kombi weapons in it. And theyre more commonly shown with a kombi weapon than a melee weapon.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- Looking at nobz, I doubt anything but klaw, killsaw, big choppa and choppa will survive as options.

May I ask why? The box (and the configurations featured on the box) show Kombi weapons, and it includes the ammo grot.

I have no idea why. Essentially GW is reducing melee option back to how it was in 5th. Plague marines, warriors and quite a few other nob-like units suffered the same fate.

I agree that the fate of our kombi-weapons is unclear, especially since we don't really suffer from the same model problems that marines do. However, GW tends to use a sledge hammer instead of a scalpel for these kinds of problems, so I wouldn't be too surprised if they just all get rolled into "Kustom shoota [Anti-Infantry 4+][Devastating Wounds][Rapidfire1]". Not happy, but also not surprised.

 Grimskul wrote:

Yeah, poor Tyranid Warriors got absolutely shredded in terms of their weapon options, particularly the CC variant.

For Nobz and Meganobz, I'm very, very curious to see what happens to our Kombi-Weapons, because based on what happened to SM and their combi weapons, they no longer have multiple profiles but just one type with devastating wounds and anti-infantry 4+. I'm unsure if we'll follow the exact same formatting when it comes to consolidating our kombi-weapons. If so, I think we'll definitely be missing our kombi skorchas since they were a way around our poor BS.

I'm also interested to see if Nobz have a more relevant version of "Crackin' Eads" or if they just get an offensive buff now instead.

I wouldn't be surprised if our Kombis get almost identical rules to Combis in the Index, which is unfortunate since it doesn't help our chance to hit in the slightest, but they may balance that by making it free wargear options for WarBoss and Elites.

A thread in general actually made me realize something in regards to how fighting works.

Leaders are now an actual members of their units, which make the whole charge+pile in mechanic much more smoother as you no longer need to leave alleys for your characters or even risk charging them in unsupported.

In addition, you really want leaders with a large base like our warbosses or Thrakka to get into base to base, as their bigger bases allow more models to get in b2b with them, effectively increasing the number of models which can fight from the second rank. Toying around with my MANz and Thrakka, it seems like a unit of MANz with Thrakka will actually have more MANz being able to strike in most scenarios than a unit without Thrakka. Very interesting.

 Jidmah wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- Looking at nobz, I doubt anything but klaw, killsaw, big choppa and choppa will survive as options.

May I ask why? The box (and the configurations featured on the box) show Kombi weapons, and it includes the ammo grot.

I have no idea why. Essentially GW is reducing melee option back to how it was in 5th. Plague marines, warriors and quite a few other nob-like units suffered the same fate.

I agree that the fate of our kombi-weapons is unclear, especially since we don't really suffer from the same model problems that marines do. However, GW tends to use a sledge hammer instead of a scalpel for these kinds of problems, so I wouldn't be too surprised if they just all get rolled into "Kustom shoota [Anti-Infantry 4+][Devastating Wounds][Rapidfire1]". Not happy, but also not surprised.

I can totally see them reducing the Kombis to only 2/5 nobz because of what's in the box, but not killing them outright.
Also let's hope they're "generous" and let us keep all the nob options on boyz nobz as well and not restrict these to klaw/ big choppa.

Well I can definitely see the power stabba being axed.

Otherwise, we kind of have some nice variety in our melee weapons for Nobz.

Chainsword equivalent - Choppa
Power Weapon equivalent - Big Choppa
Power Fist equivalent - PK
Chain Fist equivalent - KS

But yeah, Kombi weapons will definitely get smushed together into a "not quite as good as previous" option.