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As per the title, I play CSM mostly but I am having issues balancing being able to have a strong list while not pushing into uber competitive power builds that are no fun for the other person or make me look like a jerk.

Just to get this out of the way, I don't foresee too many Lords of War or Titans showing up on my local tables either, so we'll just throw those issues out of the table. I might have to deal with a baneblade or two, but I'm not too keen on playing against a superheavy without my own. I'll buy a Lord of Skulls eventually. Fortifications may make their way into the group, but no time soon either.

Back on topic. My first problem is dealing with armies that turtle behind an Aegis and shoot. Tau or IG gunlines, or IG+SM sitting behind an Aegis and just wreaking havoc and not doing anything. I don't know how people find this enjoyable, and it doesn't really seem like they're playing the full game, just throwing dice at models and hoping the explode or die. Transporting enough assault units 36 odd inches over 2-3 turns doesn't end well against this type of list. And trying to out shoot it is out of the question. CSM long range firepower is comical. It seems they suffer from the same problem SM do, jack of all trades master of none, but CSM lack quite a few swiss army knife tools that Loyalists have (looking at you Thunderfire cannon). Can anyone lend me some advice on how to deal with this from their experiences or some insight into a new playstyle / tactics?

Next issue is list tailoring I have to deal with. I play against mostly SM and IG, one or two Tau (not super competitive Tau, but bad enough). It seems that if I win handily one game (say a 3 land raider and terminators list) the next game there are a few Leman Russ's with the tank killer cannon and pask sitting across from me behind an Aegis. Luckily I rarely play the same list so I'm probably rocking Typhus + zombies or triple heldrake next game. The next week will be a list tailored to deal with whatever I had last. I don't know how to deal with this from a game stand point, and a social / gaming club perspective. We try doing random team selection after lists are written with bigger groups, or I switch up armies completely (usually have 3-4 with me).

Ideally I could just get a list type that I like, that is rather well rounded unit wise and tactic wise and stick with it, but unfortunately I fear that the next week the list I'm up against will have several hard counters to whatever last took. I personally don't like to proxy anymore, but others proxy to their heart's desire. I deal with simple things like this LRBT is an Exectioner now, to this Chimera is a basilisk, or this plain squad is a vet squad with plasma guns.

So what should I do guys? I realize CSM isn't a strong codex anymore. I've accepted that, but I want to stick it through. I'm open to suggestions and ideas, both on my game play and how to deal with my group. Also to just get these out of the way, I have an extensive model collection for CSM, as well as sizable other armies that I could ally in. I don't want to go too crazy with CSM+Belakor dataslate+Necron Allies+Inquisition though. We mostly play 1k-1750 point games, on tables with lots of ruins, but few things that truly block LOS.

Jumping textwalls batman!

So codexs have times when they are strong, and times when they are weak. How do we still have fun?

Well, you could buy the newest and best thing until your wife kicks you out for throwing all your money into your plastic-crack, or you could just build an army around a god or faction or chapter that you love, and make minor adjustments to it from edition to edition and from codex to codex.

As much as possible I try to build 'take all comers' lists, but I try to theme these lists around my patron god of nurgle. This prevents me from me from being hard countered by my opponent, but it also generally means I won't crush my opponent unless they play horribly. I do include really competitive units such as helldrakes, but I don't usually include more than one.

Over time I have evolved what allies I include. I spent a long time with nurgle daemons, but now I am building up some traitor guard. There is so much you can do with allies.

My advice: Find a theme, have fun with it, and make it your own.

Ally with IG /Tau and get them at their own game?

I might also recommend using bikers with MoN, got a jink save or an armour save, depending, and FNP.

Deep Striking termis with heavy flamers; they'll get shot out next turn surely, but at least they'll be making a havoc in the lines.

Obliterator perhaps?..or how about that..Defiler? a big ol' pie plate sounds good..*goes check it out* Oh AV12..not as tough as I imagined sadly..

I must admit my meta have little in terms of players with many models, there's generally a few minor changes from week to week (add an extra unit here or there), and with only light proxy- nothing like you're facing (ex: proxing heavy/special weapons for other heavy/special weapons).

Also, my knowledge of Chaos is limited, but as a Guard (not using Aegis) player MoN with FNP is trouble, termis popping in my troops is trouble, Chaos spawn is funny/easy to kill, but it gets its load of fire as it's a beast and gets real close real quick, allowing for the other units to get closer and/or live another turn. Havoc squad with autocannons gets some points as well, if only because it is still 8 shots at BS4, Str7 and AP4...but still got the 4+ cover of the Aegis in the way.

Take Huron or Ahriman and use their infiltrate Warlord trait to get units into position to punish your opponents for castling up. It won't be over the top powerful and will throw a monkey wrench into their normal plans.

Some units that benefit from infiltrating are Obliterators, thousand sons, Obliterators, possessed, Obliterators, noise marines with sonic weapons, Obliterators, terminators and Obliterators.

I have the same issue with tau behind aegis lines. They corner off a map with the defense line, go to ground for the 2+ cover then pull marker lights to improve bs back to full. Deepstriking gets intercepted and multi over watch on assault. Last game the tau player ended up with the 4 point objective on his side of the gun line and a 3 a couple inches outside of it. It was over before it started. Everyone told me to bring barrage to deny the cover save but for tyranids thats pretty much only a biovore.

Anyway, i ignore him when i play now. Last game i ended up with a better objective points distribution and had brought a MC heavy list. I pretty much just sat on the objectives in cover abusing iron arm and it will not die for all its worth. I ended up winning the game because he only stuck his hammerheads out once and my hive guard popped one a round.

I know you don't have as much access to MC's but it might be worth a shot.

Versus Tau+IG you need to have targets priorities.

Taus try to eliminate and crush squads with markerlights, by using deepstriking Oblits with heavy flamers or Assault cannons, or Plasma cannons.

Use fast CC units with a rhino and DIrgecaster, heck if you can put a Dirgecaster on all of your vehicles, that extra 5pts will negate the Tau's ability to hurt you before you engage them, and its a reall pain in their arses.

For barrage fire support you can use a defiler, the defiler advantage is that it is a Deamon engine, comes with a invul save and IWND, wich might come in handy.

Send the Defiler to engage Riptides, Riptides while beeing MC's arn't Fearless or immune to Fear test, if you score enough hits and he flee, you can run over his sorry arse, quit comical to watch.

With IG, try to get rid of things that is a tank and Officers, i know it might seem obvious, but its something that people tend to forget, a IG army that have no Orders is less dangerous and for this Heldrakes, Spawns or a CC unit in a Dreadclaw is good at this.

Like suggested you could also take IG or Tau allies.

IG focus on Lemas Russes or basilisk squadron to have that extra barrage orndenance shots, Tau you can go several ways, but a Farsight enclave detachement with nothing but Exoarmors could be funny.

You can also go the Black Legion ally detachement route, with a Termi Sorceror that have Ythanacs or whatever last memories( the Super nova power that can hit things in a 18" radius!).

Finnaly there is Cypher with his Formation of 1 to 3 Infiltration Chosens, with 5 special weapons in each squads, in Outflank or even Infiltration, that might be fun.

I personnaly Play a WE heavy list, Kharn+Chosen in a LR, JuggerAxeLord with 5 Bikes, 2x 8 Zerkers in Rhinos, 1 Heldrake, 1 Mauler and 1 Defiler.

I don't win easely but i sure make them pay..

Defilers?.. I'd not take anything with lower than av14 vs tau, really. They got tons of s7 with ignore everything. I'm an ork player and can tell what works great vs tau and ig and ain't cheezy nowadayz. Battlewagon rush and bikernobz. Nothing else that i've tried really worked cause footslogging horde got shot down to the point of not moving at all due to removal of closest models, walker spam died in 2 turns cause everything that's < av14 can't withstand what they're bringing.
So what could work for the OP's csm guyz in my opinion:

- Multiple fast and tough squads: lord/sorc + bikers/spawnz. It's hard to say who's better in both lord/sorc and bikers/spawnz. Lord is great in cc and will wreck anyone a gunline can put there while sorc has some awesome telepathy goodies. Bikes are faster but will lack survivability vs riptide plates with ignore cover while spawnz are a bit slower but have issues vs smart missiles. If u're going this way than u're supposed to build a list around those deathstars. It's good you have oblis and to some degree even warp talons! I know they're...odd but gunlines tend to have low ini and are clustered in one place. Here's an example of the core build i'd use if i had all those models:



Note, it ain't having no dragonz that everyone hates so much!

Maybe a telepathy sorc on bike instead of a lord.
Though use of Plague marines and bikers is debatable. However, i'd appretiate to have 3 fast threats ahead Maybe it should be other spawns. If escort gets shot down - your ic could try to join other fast guyz instead! Even a single lord is a threat to gunlines and if he has some wounds arounds around him - he's fearful. Don't know bout plague marines - they're just tough and are reliable as midfield guyz. Maybe it's better to take around 7 of them if you have points for that.

-Some evil sorcerry with infiltration. Maybe a termi-drop with a sorc with that huge blinding nova but it's not very reliable and i'd just stick to telepathy.
Ahriman/Huron and infiltrating spam. Though servo sculls are ruining this nice builds all day long.

Those things WILL work vs tau gunlines. Mellee variants are definitely prone to guard's blob with inquisitor with nades though. To tell you the truth, i don't know how are you gona counter blob with inquisitor as chaos player cause you don't have many snipe out mechanics and the blob with inquisitor's nades is gona steamroll u'r mellee.

@Wingeds - I hear you. I only play CSM and look at the options available in a similar way. I despise Aegis defense lines and see the situation getting worse with the new fortifications. It's really a nasty situation for poor Chaos.

That said, I think you are on the right track with identifying the problem, and it's time to work on solutions. The CSM Codex is actually not that bad, but it is no good for making TAC lists. I gave up on trying to put together lists that can be used against all armies. I have lists that are tailored to beat other specific Codexes, with a focus on maximizing victory points and objective holding / denial. It's simply a matter of thinking through who you are going to face and putting together the force that can deal with it best. Recent supplements / dataslates change the situation for CSMs quite a bit, and give you some options to consider.

To address the specific issues you deal with:

1) Gunlines - gunlines are hard on CSM players, but they are not impossible to beat.

I have the most success against gunline armies using large squads of bikers with a CL embedded within them. It doesn't matter if you lose half the unit riding up the board if you are going to hit with 3 attacks + hammer of wrath + the special attacks included in an artefact. Look at models as being extra wounds for your HQ choice and go from there.

The other unit that helps me beat gunlines is noise marines. They are a great answer to a gunline army. Embark them on a Rhino, disembark close to the gunline and start shooting. Use the Rhino for cover, and use multiple Rhinos to form a wall. There are some interesting tricks available when you make Rhino walls, when you can move the Rhino, shoot with the squad behind it, then move the Rhino back into place to use as cover.

Third, Heldrakes. They are not usually the answer all to themselves, but they are a great support unit. For instance, I have made my way up the board with my bikers and are about to assault a gunline consisting of 3 squads. The Heldrake vector strikes one squad, flamers the second squad, and my bikers assault the third squad. The gunline is greatly diminished and other assault units can close in. Bonus points if you get one of the squads to break as part of this assault.

Fourth, Chosen. I make use of Chosen from the Black Legion supplement all the time. Being able to bring 5 flamers or 5 plasma guns is an awesome thing when you think about it. MoS with IoE is a really important buff to these guys, it lets them hammer a squad on the gunline the first turn, stand up to one round of shooting, then assault a second unit. It's anything but a perfect tactic, but one that I have had some success with.

2) Tailoring Lists - it's a good idea to tailor lists against specific opponents. Take a picture of your opponent's armies next game and think about the units they field. Write up a list specifically to counter that opponent, keep it with you, and bring the models to carry it out. I typically bring 5,000 points of CSMs with me when I visit my FLGS and can field armies to fight against just about everything. I don't play in tournaments, and lose miserably in the ones I do play. But I do well against specific armies without getting cheesy. Just don't fool yourself into trying to table anyone, I have been playing 6th edition since it came out and have probably tabled 5 players in that time out of 150+ games.

3) Other Players - yeah, other players will proxy things, it's part of the game. Don't make too much out of it, you can't control other people. Just make sure your models look good and have the right options when you field them.

4) Long range firepower - I don't agree that CSM long range guns are a joke. I use laspreds and lashavocs in a lot of my lists, they can one-shot vehicles and take advantage of things like Aegis defense lines themselves. There's nothing wrong with sticking the heavy guns behind cover and going to town on whatever awesomeness your opponent is bringing. I know it's not as powerful as the stuff other armies can bring, but it's not to be discounted. Heavy weapons support your assault, they don't win games on their own.

Did someone say Defilers are good? eeek, don't listen to anything that guy said.

===

Oblits are amazing, 3 units of 2 with Mark of Nurgle (so lascannons don't instagib you) are pretty tops.

Las-preds are takeable.

Vindicators are useable in pairs.

Bikes are super good.

Nurgle Marked Spawn are amazing. Dude in our group has taken 3 maxed units of these, really hoses the meta when you've got those things on the board.

====

Basically, the elites slot is really bad. Sorcerers are points efficient. Keep those to truths in mind and you can build a playable CSM army (even without Drakes).

You guys must be using the Defiler wrong then...always did good for me.

When they where 150pts i always played 2.

My Defiler killed DPrinces, Chapter Master, whole squads of Marines, 3 Rhinos that was so close from one another that the template recoverd them all 3, all got exploded.

Took insane amount of fire and still end the game with 2HP.

Of course there is also instances where it got blow up on turn 1 or did nothing significant of the game.

But i don't see where its bad to have a S8 AP3 ordenance large blast weapon on a 5++ IWND 4HP machine.

Now i can understand that poeple doesn't like it, i don't like everything that is Slaanesh or Tzeentch and i don't make a fuzz about it.

I've never given my Defiler the right chance, I might have to. I'm also looking at getting a Vengeance weapon battery for the battle cannons. 2 of those will help quite a bit for the price of a LRBT.

I guess I just played very poorly my last game, my list was nowhere near optimized since I had to tack on another 250 points so my game plan was thrown. Probably just a bad game and my venting frustration. I do dislike trying to charge up table in Rhinos against 2-3 72" STR 8 AP 3 Ordnance guns on AV14/13/10 platforms. Lascannons don't really measure up to that, especially behind a 4+ or 3+ cover.

@ techsoldaten - Thanks for the handy advice. Nice to see someone else with similar thoughts on the matter.

@koooaei - Thanks as well, My list incoroporates some of that, just it never seems to synergize as well as other people's whole armies.

@Slayer le boucher - I'm gonna give black legion and Cypher a try next. Getting into combat is my issue, so if I can close the board in 1 turn, that might be my key to success.

Well... I happen to like the Chaos Space Marines. I'm not a frequent player of them but when I do play, it's Night Lords.

What I have done in my most recent list is roughly:

3 units of 1 Nurgle Mutilators

2 units 15 Raptors (Khorne, because the banner is aaaaaawesome)

3 units Chaos Marines in Dirge Rhinos sporting Blades (because tank shock and also Funtastic)

Chaos Marines in LandRaider (cover for the rhinos, Sacrifical lamb)

Havocs (because flyers)

I dont have it in front of me or Id be more accurate but that's roughly it.


LandRaider rushes 18" and Rhinos run behind it, badly limiting enemy fire on them. Lan Raiders are pretty big and 4HP can be a pain in the ass until meltas get a lot closer. They all prepare to tank shock with their crazy blades and dirge casters, Raptors meanwhile use terrain, tanks and whatever they can find to jump and run forward. Ultimately if they lose a few instead of those shots going Rhinoward, that would be cool.

Round two, in comes the Mutilators, jumping to draw significant fire to three separate hard to kill targets that are beefy and mean to shooty people. Target Saturation. Dirge casters should make the charges pretty safe if they dont end up sending units off the board themselves.

Points willing, you can do a higher cost obliterator for this and it would be a fine idea. I found my points limited after HQ's and what not and opted for the disposable but dangerous hero types:

I enjoy mobile armies most of all and so this type of army is ideal for me. Gun lines can be overcome also if you take Huron. He's really good.

As a CSM player who has a good winrate at this point into 6th ED, your drakes go after ANYTHING in cover. And what ever it is, as long as its INF its going to die. (Roast)

Send Drakes after cover hiding Tau, Rock a LR with a Dirge Caster and your assault troops don't get overwatched as long as the LR is within 6" of the unit/s being charged.

If you REALLY want to lay the hurt on some cover mongerers, ally Daemons, Take Plague Bearers with a banner, and a Soul Grinder of Nurgle. Deep Strike the Plague bearers semi-close to the enemy lines somewhere it will be relatively safe from mishap, then after they land Deep Strike the Soul Grinder as within 6" of the Plague Bearer with the Banner, the Grinder DOES NOT SCATTER. Give him the Baleful Torrent, and you effectively can reach up to 30" away with your template weapon on your grinder. AV13 front armor also means they will need to dedicate heavy weaponry to kill it.

Good times