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2013/12/30 02:21:20
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
Yes. There is quite a bit in the Black Library books on the Horus Heresy. There were thousands of Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, etc. that were "cut loose" and killed on Istvaan III.
As a matter of fact, two of the commanders were part of Horus' inner group, the Mournival.
SO far as that goes, they may change all of that in a few years. There's been some really strange things with the background lately, Blood Angels siding with Necrons or something?
*sigh* this is like Horus Heresy 101, seriously, you start a new thread every day when all it would take is some basic research to figure it out.
Isstvan III, as pointed out above, was a mini civil war amongst the "core 4" legions where they purged themselves of the loyalist elements of their legions, who were for the most part the original Terran marines rather than the newer recruits from the respective homeworlds of the various legions.
Stemming from Isstvan III, you have several hundred Legionnaires who fled the purge and made it to Terra to warn the Emperor and were given other assignments, depending on your interpretation of the fluff these were the founders of the Inquisition or the Grey Knights.
In the case of the Thousand Sons, they didn't really have much of a choice, they were basically declared enemies of the Imperium even before Horus (openly) betrayed the Emperor and were nearly destroyed by the Space Wolves, those that survived were transported to the warp by Magnus and really had no other options, there were a small handful of Thousand Sons who were not present at Prospero during these events and remained loyal however.
The only example I can think of where you would be right would be the case of the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers, but I imagine similar purges would have occurred at some point.
The Alpha Legion remain a total mystery to me (and everyone else evidently) not really sure what their deal is and whether or not they were really traitors
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2013/12/30 04:07:40
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
chaos0xomega wrote: *sigh* this is like Horus Heresy 101, seriously, you start a new thread every day when all it would take is some basic research to figure it out.
Isstvan III, as pointed out above, was a mini civil war amongst the "core 4" legions where they purged themselves of the loyalist elements of their legions, who were for the most part the original Terran marines rather than the newer recruits from the respective homeworlds of the various legions.
Stemming from Isstvan III, you have several hundred Legionnaires who fled the purge and made it to Terra to warn the Emperor and were given other assignments, depending on your interpretation of the fluff these were the founders of the Inquisition or the Grey Knights.
In the case of the Thousand Sons, they didn't really have much of a choice, they were basically declared enemies of the Imperium even before Horus (openly) betrayed the Emperor and were nearly destroyed by the Space Wolves, those that survived were transported to the warp by Magnus and really had no other options, there were a small handful of Thousand Sons who were not present at Prospero during these events and remained loyal however.
The only example I can think of where you would be right would be the case of the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Word Bearers, but I imagine similar purges would have occurred at some point.
The Alpha Legion remain a total mystery to me (and everyone else evidently) not really sure what their deal is and whether or not they were really traitors
IIRC, the Night Lords never needed purging, as not only did Curze have no idea what to really do with them ever, but there were always a band of murder-happy psychopaths all along and didn't really 'fall' to Chaos as much as they did swap sides.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
2013/12/30 04:23:10
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
chaos0xomega wrote: *sigh* this is like Horus Heresy 101, seriously, you start a new thread every day when all it would take is some basic research to figure it out.
Gotta give him credit for not using the word "powerful". Not even once.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hah, I added the little flame. See what I did there?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/30 04:24:42
2013/12/30 04:44:11
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
chaos0xomega wrote: The Alpha Legion remain a total mystery to me (and everyone else evidently) not really sure what their deal is and whether or not they were really traitors
The Alpha Legion are of course traitors, seeing as they sided with Horus but they did so for the right reasons.
Spoiler:
In Legion, they're manipulated into an encounter with a delegation of ambassadors from a collection of alien races called The Cabal.
This Cabal convince Alpharius that the threat of Chaos will eventually consume the galaxy and destroy all life. The only way to destroy the Chaos Gods is through the extinction of humanity. Chaos feeds on the psychic energy emanating from the emotions of real space life forms - the Warp is a sort of 4th dimension, or parallel universe, a shadow of real space where warp entities reflect real space life forms. The decadence and Fall of the Eldar race spawned the Chaos God Slaanesh. The violence of ancient humanity spawned the Chaos God Khorne. And so on.
With the gradual and ongoing extinction of the Eldar race, and the massive population of humanity - the dominant life form in the galaxy - the Chaos Gods are so heavily invested in humanity that if it were to go extinct, the Chaos Gods would be all but wiped out.
The Cabal showed Alpharius what they claimed to be visions of the future. They alleged that there were two possibilities, and outcomes of the pending Horus Heresy.
1. If the Imperium won, the Emperor would be mortally wounded and entombed on the Golden Throne for 10 thousand years, the Imperium doomed to a slow decline with Chaos and alien races pressing on all sides until its eventual collapse when Chaos will overrun the galaxy. (which is what did happen, hence Warhammer 40K.
2. If Horus won, he would be so consumed by self hatred and remorse that he would turn on his fellow traitor Primarchs. The remaining traitor Primarchs and Legions would fragment and turn on one another out of mutual distrust and loathing. What remained of humanity after the Horus Heresy would once again be plunged into civil war and would drive itself to extinction. With humanity extinct, the Chaos Gods will be wiped out, ending the threat of Chaos (at least, until a new alien race comes along and does something to trigger the birth of a new god).
The Alpha Legion naturally decided that Option 2 was preferable, as the lesser of two evils. They decided that Humanity must die, to end the threat of Chaos and thus preserve life in the Galaxy. To achieve this they had to side with Horus and ensure his victory. In a sense, the Alpha Legion are loyal at heart but are acting for the Greater Good - Humanity must be sacrificed to destroy Chaos.
Of course, they sided with Horus but failed to ensure his victory, so they failed in their mission. After 10 thousand years of failure, I imagine most members of the Alpha Legion have given up, and just pledged themselves to Chaos. Though Alpharius/Omegon (whichever twin is still alive) may still be trying to bring about Humanity's and thus Chao's extinction.
The Alpha Legion took the ultimate gamble, and failed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/30 04:45:46
2013/12/30 07:57:41
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
Stop making new threads! It's easy to READ, and all the information you need has been addressed on this VERY FORUM many MANY times in the last few weeks, and even days!
Stop making new threads. Go READ for a few weeks, and THEN come back.
The rest of you, please for the love of God stop responding to questions that are extraordinarily easy to figure out without spamming yet ANOTHER thread.
And mods, come on now, this is getting ridiculous. Put a stop to it, please.
4500
2013/12/30 11:22:08
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
troa wrote: Stop making new threads! It's easy to READ, and all the information you need has been addressed on this VERY FORUM many MANY times in the last few weeks, and even days!
Stop making new threads. Go READ for a few weeks, and THEN come back.
The rest of you, please for the love of God stop responding to questions that are extraordinarily easy to figure out without spamming yet ANOTHER thread.
And mods, come on now, this is getting ridiculous. Put a stop to it, please.
Jeez get over it. The guy just likes to talk so let him. I much prefer typing to people about the topic than searching myself. Its the reason im on here. If it annoys you, close your eyes, take a deep breath and look at another thread. Let the poor man have a conversation (if you can call this conversing?) Its not a big deal. No real space is being taken up.
2013/12/30 11:26:38
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
chaos0xomega wrote: The Alpha Legion remain a total mystery to me (and everyone else evidently) not really sure what their deal is and whether or not they were really traitors
The Alpha Legion are of course traitors, seeing as they sided with Horus but they did so for the right reasons.
I like to think that Chaos "interfered" with the reasons of Alpha Legion turning, I mean:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion did exactly what supposedly the Cabal suggested... This is akin to Horus 'dream', iirc, when wounded, where he sees the Emperor scattering the pods containing the primarchs...
The dream is manipulated by chaos to feed Horus's sense of abandonement... So, in the same way, Chaos interferes with Alpharius vision, so he sees grim and worse possibilities instead of hope...and probably realizes it too late
Gorgrimm wrote: Yes. There is quite a bit in the Black Library books on the Horus Heresy. There were thousands of Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, etc. that were "cut loose" and killed on Istvaan III.
As a matter of fact, two of the commanders were part of Horus' inner group, the Mournival.
SO far as that goes, they may change all of that in a few years. There's been some really strange things with the background lately, Blood Angels siding with Necrons or something?
I believe One of Horus' Mournival even became a part of the Grey knights.
chaos0xomega wrote: The Alpha Legion remain a total mystery to me (and everyone else evidently) not really sure what their deal is and whether or not they were really traitors
The Alpha Legion are of course traitors, seeing as they sided with Horus but they did so for the right reasons.
I like to think that Chaos "interfered" with the reasons of Alpha Legion turning, I mean:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion did exactly what supposedly the Cabal suggested... This is akin to Horus 'dream', iirc, when wounded, where he sees the Emperor scattering the pods containing the primarchs...
The dream is manipulated by chaos to feed Horus's sense of abandonement... So, in the same way, Chaos interferes with Alpharius vision, so he sees grim and worse possibilities instead of hope...and probably realizes it too late
I don't personally think that the Alpha legion are Chaos. They're renegade, sure, but they don't do mutations and while they do fight with the loyal marines, it's not necessarily to further the glory of chaos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 11:48:47
2013/12/30 13:24:15
Subject: Re:it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
Another day, another glorious thread by LightKing...
40k Astartes are psyco-indoctrinated. In previous editions, this implied brain-washing. Most of them were killing machines, good at obeying orders without questioning once they know the chain of command. Astartes that were able to retain independent thought were chosen as leaders, and they were rare. This varies from Chapter to Chapter.
In 30k there is less brain-washing but they are (most of them) still mono-dimensional, with the focus of the story given to those who can think on their own.
Astartes are, in many senses, children or teenagers. They do not go through the normal process for humans, and at the end you have something that is no longer human. The lack of sexuality (yes I know the Wolves got sex in the last Codex, that´s the only reference ever, not counting the Emperor´s Children) and the lack of a real family in a real society turns them into something closer to a child.
There are exceptions though, and many Astartes didn´t follow blindly their leaders during the Heresy. The Legions did purges before going traitor, Isstvan III the most famous.
troa wrote: Stop making new threads! It's easy to READ, and all the information you need has been addressed on this VERY FORUM many MANY times in the last few weeks, and even days!
Stop making new threads. Go READ for a few weeks, and THEN come back.
The rest of you, please for the love of God stop responding to questions that are extraordinarily easy to figure out without spamming yet ANOTHER thread.
And mods, come on now, this is getting ridiculous. Put a stop to it, please.
Jeez get over it. The guy just likes to talk so let him. I much prefer typing to people about the topic than searching myself. Its the reason im on here. If it annoys you, close your eyes, take a deep breath and look at another thread. Let the poor man have a conversation (if you can call this conversing?) Its not a big deal. No real space is being taken up.
You are right, but troa has a point here.
Most of his thread are "troll-threats". He search for questions that may cause violent arguments and ask them in a troll way. "so sisters of battle = space marines", "so a canoness is better "then" a primarch", or this one.
Also, he NEVER reads the answers, he just keep on flaming, usually by putting words in the mouth of people.
This can be intentional (troll) or... I don´t know.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2013/12/30 14:35:26
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
Word bearers "purged" there legion on calth, everyone who went to calth were meant to fight and die there destroying the ultramarines in the process (ref betrayer)
The night lords didn't purge them selves as curze states he would not know where to even start with the purge (ref feast of crows)
Alphas are purging certain cells for various reasons, why there doing this we don't know yet (serpent beneath)
World eaters didn't purge loyalists, they purged whoever angron decided he wanted gone (book 1 massacre and betrayer)
Emperors children purged whoever wasn't on the road to corruption or "perfect" enough, not just loyalists (fulgrim, Angel exterminatus)
There are more
2013/12/30 15:11:25
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
LightKing wrote: that they just blatently followed their primarch during the heresy, never questioned them...
if your primarch became traitor, you followed him and became traitor, if your primarch became loyal, you become loyal
is their any evidence of astartes going against their traitor primarch and following loyal, and vie versa
Yes, there were tons and tons and tons and tons of examples of Astartes not following their Primarchs.
Pretty much all of the Traitor Legions had to cull huge swathes of their ranks, with the possible exception of the World Eaters (who only culled Librarians, since the only proper "War Hound" by that point was a dude in a dreadnought).
But yes, all of the Astartes (and most of the Primarchs) are weak-minded. They are mental infants in the bodies of supermen.
Fluff for the Fluff God!
2013/12/30 17:53:45
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
troa wrote: Stop making new threads! It's easy to READ, and all the information you need has been addressed on this VERY FORUM many MANY times in the last few weeks, and even days!
Stop making new threads. Go READ for a few weeks, and THEN come back.
The rest of you, please for the love of God stop responding to questions that are extraordinarily easy to figure out without spamming yet ANOTHER thread.
And mods, come on now, this is getting ridiculous. Put a stop to it, please.
So add him to your Ignore list, and avoid his threads.
Pretty much all of the Traitor Legions had to cull huge swathes of their ranks, with the possible exception of the World Eaters (who only culled Librarians, since the only proper "War Hound" by that point was a dude in a dreadnought).
The World Eaters had loyalists among their ranks too. After the life eater virus was unleashed on Istvaan III, Angron descended to the planet to personally deal with the surviving loyalists of his legion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/30 17:55:02
2013/12/30 18:56:04
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
I did that, Shadow, but unfortunately the threads pop again once anyone else posts in them. The ignore feature doesn't ignore threads started by someone once others post.
And as another pointed out, the issue beyond his spamming is he doesn't actually read them typically. His spam has toned down in volume, but once it renews again it will go back to several of the active 1st page threads being his spam.
4500
2013/12/30 21:21:27
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
troa wrote: I did that, Shadow, but unfortunately the threads pop again once anyone else posts in them. The ignore feature doesn't ignore threads started by someone once others post.
And as another pointed out, the issue beyond his spamming is he doesn't actually read them typically. His spam has toned down in volume, but once it renews again it will go back to several of the active 1st page threads being his spam.
Then stop reading them, it's not that fething hard.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/12/31 01:49:22
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
Bronzefists42 wrote: LightKing strikes again. This question is semi legitimate though but ignores a few big issues.(i.e. stuff mentioned above.
Indeed. Most of his stuff seems to be more like random statements than questions. And the stuff resembling questions is easily resolvable if one was to foray the internet with a little bit of effort. The big part of course is him not reading the very answers that are presented to him, nor the sites provided.
2013/12/31 04:40:50
Subject: it seems like the legion astartes were weak minded
4500 
2270 (1725 painted)
329 (280ish)
705 (0)
193 (0)
165 (0)
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
