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2014/01/10 15:36:46
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
I surfed through rumors and information on the Tyranid release and found that long standing players of 'Nids as well as general commentators were not particularly thrilled, ranging from a wait and see attitude to the codex to something along the lines of this:
angeleania wrote:Speaking about the codex today, a few things fall into place. One of the older members of the Stoke branch is regular play tester for the pre release codex's as he has a number of armies they use when the designers want to try out their rules. Well it turns out he basically advised the design team that the NID codex was far too week and he basically walked over their armies, so they kept adding and changing the rules until it became such a mess that they stopped play testing the book. The white dwarf article was done in the released format because it became obvious that things did not work. They even toned down the riptides load out and tailored the report so it looked as if the new NID's could stand up to the best units in the game. it was a lie.
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
Add to this that the reason we don't have the doom or parasite or pod was a hang over of the chapter-house law suit. When that went to court GW decided that they would not be making these models as the cost of the molds and time was too expensive. So the safest way to remove influence from chapter-house, was to make any of the disputed models obsolete. Remove them from the codex.
We already had the design team at Nottingham give interviews saying they would put right the 5th edition codex, i wonder what they are going to say this time.
Its a sad time. Send in your complaints
The blog Whiskey & 40k had a more detailed explanation of problems and a few bright spots-
Tyranids - Early Reaction from a Long-Time Nid Player
So I played 40K briefly when I was in Junior High and early HS. This was second edition. I played Tyranids. When I picked 40K back up again in my mid-20s, I initially ebayed a Necron army b/c it was cheap and I was told they were easy to learn, this was in 4th Edition. Within a month I had a Tyranid army again, and I've played them consistently ever since.
I'm disappointed in what we know so far about the new codex (which is almost everything). I don't think the sky is falling - I'm sure a few good lists will come out of it - but it's roundly bad at dealing with the 2 "best" codices of the moment (Eldar/Tau), and perhaps also even worse in terms of internal balance than it was before.
Here's my initial thoughts on it, keeping in mind all of this will be revised / may change based upon holding and playing with the total codex (don't lose your minds yet folks) ...
Overall:
The first thing you'll note is Tyranids no longer have access to book powers. This combines with no access to allies to make them unique among 40k armies - they have 0 book power access and 0 ally access. People keep saying supplements may change this, and they may. Let's look at the present and be happy if the future changes things, however. Right now, Nids are the only codex that does not permit you to access the rest of the game via allies, and does not permit you psychic flexibility in terms of tree selection and varied powers.
Instead, they have access to the Powers of the Hive Mind. OK, cool, well these are probably awesome since there are no other powers available to them besides these.
Psy Powers
Primaris - +6" Synapse range. This is a really boring primaris, but will probably be important, as Tyranid synapse generally got more difficult to field, and one of only 2 "hide-able" synapse Independent Characters were deleted from the codex altogether. Meanwhile, the other one (Tyranid Primes) received a greater than 50% base points increase with no changes to its functionality or power level. Basically, your functional synapse is going to feel overpriced and/or suboptimal with a few exceptions, so having as much extension of synapse as possible may actually be valuable.
1 - Catalyst - Blessing. Psyker's unit and one other friendly unit w/in 12" gains FNP. This is actually pretty decent.
2 - The Horror - Forces a pinning test with a LD modifier, 24" Malediction. This is the Broodlord's base power; we'll talk later about why it's pretty bad on a Broodlord against what people are kneejerking to. IT's useful enough situationally.
3 - Onslaught - Same basically; 24" blessing that lets a unit run+shoot. Situationally useful.
4 - Paroxysm - 24" malediction that is -D3 WS/BS. Randomly acquired and a straight nerf of its older version.
5 - Psychic Scream - Doom of Malantai Power basically. 2d6+2 - LD wounds with no armor/cover, nova 6" ... this is a fine power if you can deliver it, but there are no more spore pods, which means accurate delivery requires combos such as lictors, and ... well, you might use it you might not in a given game, which is what this boils down to.
6 - Warp Blast - While ML2, that's not too inhibiting given the way it is applied in the codex, but it's largely unchanged (I think the AP of the Lance went from 1 to 2, though, so that's disappointing).
Psychic powers are basically "OK," none of them are all that bad, the Primaris is a little underwhelming.
Army Rules
Shadow in the Warp is -3LD to enemy psykers w/in 12" more or less ... this is a little better [for Tyranids] for sub-LD10 psykers and a little worse [for Tyranids] against the primary type of psykers, LD10. Not a huge change as I'm given to understand from those who are more mathematically committed than I am.
Synapse - Fearless/auto-regroup, nothing changed. Eternal was not added, which is a little disappointing from the perspective of making the mid-range T4 bio-constructs useful in take all comers gaming.
Bioweapons
Largely unchanged, honestly. Scything Talons were nerfed (no longer offer any form of re-roll to hit, and are just "weapons" with AP6). The AP6 is nice I guess, if you want to kill 16% more orks and kroot and tyranid. But you didn't struggle killing those as it was. Rending Claws were buffed, basically staying the same but gaining AP5 to boot.
Bio-Upgrades
The various common upgrades got a little better in some cases (Adrenal Glands = furious/fleet instead of just furious) but generally also got more expensive. The shunting of points from the creatures to their often-mandatory upgrades accounts for a lot of why the dex doesn't actually play cheaper / with more models at a first glance. Some upgrades were stripped from the dex entirely, like the armored shell ... you can't get a real 2+ save unless you're a Tyrannofex.
Bio-Artefacts
The "fake" 2+ save is here ... an expensive ugprade that lets you have a 2+ for just an assault phase, every other assault phase. Hooray.
The bio-artefacts as a whole are generally awful.
Maw-Claws of Thyrax - for 10 points you get rending claws that give you Preferred Enemy during the game against things you've killed one of with that model, for that model. So you get to re-roll a few 1's. Don't bother.
The Miasma Cannon - for 25 points you get a weapon that's not really any better or worse than most of the other already-available bio-weapons. Either a 2+ to wound AP4 template or a 2+ to wound AP4 blast. Skip, far too expensive (or you could argue, far too weak and non-differentiated from standard bioweaponry).
The Norn Crown - +6" synapse range (non-psy-casted Dominion, or a boost to Dominion) is alright ... UNTIL YOU REALIZE IT COSTS 40 POINTS. Horrible.
The Ymgarl Factor - +1S, +1A, or +1 save every assault phase, for just the assault phase, and you can't repeat the same one twice ... and it costs 40 points. AWFUL.
The Reaper of Obliterax - This doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. It's a Bonesword with +1S and +3I. The problem is it costs 30 more points than a Bonesword, clocking in at 45 total. Again, skip.
I don't see any of the bio-artefacts as being worth taking.
Onto the units
HQ Hive Tyrant - Points decrease to 165, upped to ML2 psyker, but lost access to anything but Powers of the Hive Mind. The double devourer flyrant you'll see poeple harping on is still fairly bad, a unit that was used a lot in 5th Edition but never won major events and never concerned serious players. It still clocks in at 230 points at least to field this build-out, so it's more affordable but still not at all cheap.
Swarmlord - Mega nerf. His weapons lost their ability to force re-rolled successful invulnerable saves. He lost access to powers like Biomancy which were critical for his points value. He lost one roll on the psy tree (in exchange for getting ML3 instead of ML2, but this is a substantial nerf regardless overall). Fortunately they reduced his cost to 285. WAIT WHAT? They added 5 points to his cost. Oh.
Tyrant Guard - These are about what they were, and are actually fine. Crushing claws are OK on them too, though at a substantial cost.
Old One Eye - Cheaper but largely the same. Doesn't have any special kind of regen. He's still pretty bad. I don't know how to tell people that a T6 W4 3+ save MC is never going to last long enough to apply cool regen or FNP powers. He's really not 100 points better than a stock Carnifex.
Tervigon - OH THE PAIN.
No one should be surprised that "the" Monster choice from the last codex got targeted, but let's see how much.
He gained +1I
He lost access to more than 1 psy power, and is ML1, and lost access to all book powers.
He lost the ability to up his attacks profile with crushing claws.
He lost the buffs given to nearby gaunts, inclusive of Leadership, Poison, Furious when he has those.
He retained giving Counter-attack to nearby gaunts, but of course they aren't using his Ld anymore.
When he spawns gaunts, he can still burn out and he spawns the same quantity, but the gaunts themselves cannot move or assault upon arrival.
He can only be made a Troop for each 30-model Termagant squad you take. Though termagants became cheaper, that's a 70 point uptick to enable Tervitroops right off the bat. That's ok, though, b/c he probably went down in cost due to all the dramatic nerfs right?
Wrong. The "Cost" for that dramatic ... improvement??? 35 points. Tervigons are now 195 base.
Tyranid Prime - More pain.
Basically exactly what it was before, but possibly a lost wound (I can't recall off top of head if they were T5/W4 or T5/W3). Regardless, let's assume he's the same. The cost for no changes? Increase his points base by over 50% from 80 to 125. Really?
What's important is the Prime is the codex's only IC synapse, which becomes even more important due to Instinctive Behavior being generally a much worse thing to have happen.
Parasite of Mortrex - The other IC synapse in the codex has been removed from the game.
Deathleaper! He's HQ now! Cool! Wait he's more or less the same. Snap shots only to shoot at him, which is an upgrade (And also means he can't be flamed or blasted, which is kinda cool). He costs a little less I think also, and is pretty decent still stats wise. Not an IC, so no hope of him being anything other than a stationary target. Still applies a LD debuff to enemy IC of choice. Overall actually pretty decent. Hooray!
HQ Summary:
Tyrants are still IMO a subpar unit that costs too much and is too targetable, requiring massive points investment of guard to make them even last a while unless you're playing against pretty subpar or niche opponents. They are cheaper, so at least there's that.
Tervigons are utterly terrible, overcosted and with almost no serious contribution to make to the game. The Swarmlord is not worth his points, at all. Old One Eye is terrible. You may find yourself often taking points for a Norn Crown Tyranid Prime despite the absurd overcosting ... and Death Leaper maybe ... b/c what else are you going to do? Besides, you'll need to hide your Synapse in 30-model gaunt units; none of the other HQ or synapse units can survive sustained fire from ElTau, especially not at their costs.
I don't think a lot of peopled owned a Tyranid Prime or Death Leaper if they were 5th Edition players, so you know, buy one of each. Otherwise you probably already own anything you'll use or try to force using from this (Tervigons, Flyrants). Cool, almost no cost!
Troops
Tyranid Warriors - As far as I can tell, these more or less didn't change. You can buy 4 point frag grenades for them. They're horrible. There's no way to give them eternal, or to increase their T, so they're super fragile to anything that can double them out (like, I Don't know, cover save ignoring re-rolling to hit S8 pie plating riptides w/ trick commanders? OH THOSE AREN'T COMMON). Nobody took Tyranid Warriors in 5th, and nobody will take them in 6th, outside casual gaming in environments where the social contract tailors things to allow their functionality (which is fine I suppose, but why design units / games where things don't work unless you have long conversations and hit-or-miss gaming sessions to figure out what's ok or not to bring from the base legal codex??).
Genestealers - These basically didn't change. They're still awful. Broodlords get The Horror by default, instead of the Stealers getting some kind of Flesh Hook access. On face value, you'd think "Well cool they can pin a unit before assaulting it, so it won't benefit from being assaulted through cover, it's kinda like grenades!" The problem is, The Horror is a Malediction, which means the Broodlord needs to have LOS to the unit you want to maledict a turn in advance. In that interim opponent's turn, the Broodlord must subsequently survive incoming fire (and he only Looks Out Sir on a 4+), and the unit you want to assault must still be in LOS after having access to a full player turn to move out of LOS of the Broodlord or simply block his LOS. So, nice thought, but totally impractical. Let me know when they release an errata that gives Genestealers some way to survive being exposed to enemy fire for a turn.
Termagants - These are basically what they were, only a little more expensive if you want to give them furious/poison. Last edition they were 5 points, 6 for furious OR poison, 7 for both. Now they're 4 base, 6 for furious OR poison, 8 for both. Yes, furious gained fleet and is thus better. Termagants are still your mainstay, but it's trickier now b/c you don't get to apply poison with Tervigons, so you're going to have to either sac fleet/furious or spend 8 points/model to have them be flexibly able to deal with a variety of threats. You'll possibly need to anyway, b/c ... well, that's this codex's problem. Not much in it is any good.
Unit composition did improve somewhat, as you can selectively equip the brood w/ Devourers, thus building ablative non-devourer wound suckers into it. Some things you can play with here that might be OK. This is cool b/c you don't have to buy any models if you're a long-standing Tyranid player.
Hormagaunts - Same old same old. Termagants do exactly what Hormagaunts do, but they do it better, and they have S4 AP5 guns.
Rippers - These got more expensive. I have no idea why. They don't score, they're ID'able, they don't hit for anything. Ummm ... continue to sit on shelf and look pretty!
Troop Summary - Nothing changed, literally. Gaunts are your only good Troops. Have fun, you don't have to spend any money to get set for the new codex!
Elite
Hive Guard - They gained access to a new gun for +5 points that's Haywire. Their old gun basically remained the same. They lost 1 Ballistic Skill. They did not gain skyfire-ability or anything. Cool, cool, sounds like they should drop to 45 points and have a +5 (I guess, not sure why) for the Haywire gun. Wait, no, +5 points base. ???????????????? Yet still for many list types will be mandatory. That's cool, LESS NEED TO BUY NEW MODELS YET AGAIN!
Lictors - 15 points cheaper, 100% still crappy. Some people will find uses for them in gimmick style lists with their deep strike teleport homer nature or whatever, but they're still really really dumb/unfluffy. WE SPENT WEEKS CAREFULLY SECRETING OURSELVES AWAY AND PLANNING FOR HTIS ONE MOMENT!
/leaps from cover ... SURPRISE! Pauses, lets opponents carefully arm and aim their weapons, BS'es with buddy Lictors b/c they're forced to operate in ... SQUADS? What? Anyway then they get shot, but they sure did surprise those guys!
Zoanthropes - These guys were hit hard. Previously they could use warp lance/blast each, with lance being slightly better. They rolled psy tests separately, which meant targets rolled Deny the Witch separately, which meant in general better odds of at least a couple shots getting off and getting to actually roll to hit against their target. Now here's how they work. They still get lance/blast, and they fire it as a unit. A unit of 3 fires 3 shots, 2 fires 2 shots, etc., but it's just one Psy Test (Brotherhood of Psykers). So you have a 24% chance right off the bat of either failing the Ld10 test or the opponent DTW'ing on a 6+ (assuming they aren't psykers of some sort, and Zoeys are only ML1 so any 2+ is dtw'ing on a 4+). Then, you have to roll to hit, so each shot then has a 33% chance of missing. Then you have to actually pen/wound, get through cover, etc. These are terrible. They can roll an additional power on the hive mind chart I believe, but ... ugh. Don't bother. They have 2 warp charges a turn but their main weapon is WC 2 so you'll only use that other power if there's nothing to shoot at with your 6 wounds of marine-level saves and toughness hovering about looking silly.
Venomthropes - Basically the same, but I think a little cheaper, and they got buffed from a 5+ cover save to an aura applying Shrouded. This is actually substantial in the upgrade department, but still doesn't address the fact that Venomthropes are independently targetable and not very durable. Competitive-minded/smart opponents will simply shoot these over-large T4 models with their large LOS footprint, applying things like trick commanders and serpent shields to the task, and that'll be that. AT least they'll have to shoot them first, vice having to apply fire to an army full of 2+ and 3+ cover saves. They're not terrible.
Haruspex - The new close combat variant of the new ground-monster/oval-base kit. He has one more initiative than the Tervigon, 1 more strength and otherwise the same fundamental combat stats. That's right, the combat monster is a slow-moving WS3 S6 guy with 3 attacks and a tail weapon. He's actually quite bad. I don't know what the point of the unit is, I know it has some hinky things that work ok fighting a large blob or squad, but they aren't actually THAT great at said task, and all of it is hampered by the fact that this big ole killer monster hits guardsmen on a 4+, and there's almost no opportunity in the entire codex to get re-rolls on things like to-hit rolls. This guy isn't worth it compared to any of the other elites. He's like the monstrous version of the Pyrovore. Well, maybe he's better than a Pyrovore.
SPEAKING OF WHICH
They made Pyrovores cheaper and have another wound and such. They didn't change them otherwise. They're awful forever. Next.
Elite Summary: Hive Guard, maybe Venomthropes. While you're at it, said Hive Guard were nerfed for no real explicable reason and cost more. Hooray. I don't understand why they wouldn't buff the new model, and some of the never-ordered backlog, to make them decent.
Fast Attack
Shrikes - Basically the same, still bad.
Raveners - Basically the same, still pretty bad, maybe somehow better though I don't really have a way to explain why I think that. I've always loved Raveners, but I can't see taking them over Gargoyles still.
The Red Terror - Hit with all of your attacks, with no re-rolls to hit, and you can remove a model you're in base with, if you're in base with it, and if ... aw fug it just realize it's like 85 points and move on, but be glad they added Red Terror back. Only, then be sad they deleted several models too, so apparently they don't believe in win-win for their players ... you get nothing unless you have something taken.
Flying Rippers - lol Spore Mines - why are awkwardly floaty things that have to be delivered by a heavy support creature having an orgasm considered fast attack? You know what don't answer that, but move along past this entry.
Gargoyles - these are still the shining star of the FA section, though they were arguably nerfed, though they also guarantee blinding what they attack.
Harpy and Crone - The reason these were unpopular in the past was not that there wasn't a model. They were unpopular because they are a T5 4+ save FMC with a giant LOS footprint and no invul save of any kind. Also, the Crone can only fire 2 tentaclids at most a turn, and that's if he doesn't drool on somebody or vector strike something. Or she, or whatever, I don't know, but both of these are poor units. People may take them anyway just hoping they can I guess do something before they're blown out of the sky by a single quad gun round (4 hits and wounds are likely, and a failed grounding test thereafter would do them in).
Fast Attack Summary: Yet again, stick to the models you already owned if you're playing serious Nid lists, Gargoyles.
Heavy Support
Carnifex - To someone who played Nids in 4th edition, when there was less firepower going around and Carnifexes were only 85 points base, this unit still feels really bad. It kind of is. But there are a couple builds that are not awful now due to the lowered cost. Gunfexes hiding in backfield flinging a S6 large blast pinning and a S9 small blast seem functional enough. You could also run them as dakka.
Biovores - Basically what they were before, good enough.
Trygon - Taking away re-rolls to hit at the cost of 10 points cheaper but more expensive upgrades is kind of a messy exchange. It's hard to be a big fan of these guys still; they show up, fire their little electric stuff of, and die. With reserves manipulation difficult for Tyranid, it's hard to conceptualize the right way to go here, but there might be some kind of combo list with a lot of reserves arriving and using Lictors. The problem of course is there are a lot of things in this game that punk MC's shooting and cc, and you can't get around the requisite turn after arrival of just sitting there holding your junk and hoping not to die.
Trygon Prime - Still meh also.
Mawloc - Upgraded and made a little random at the same time. You can't safely go after large target clusters with the Mawloc anymore, b/c you no longer push models out of the way after you blast up from under them. Instead, you repeat your damage roll from the underground arrival. If things are still left after the second roll, the Mawloc Mishaps. People think these are much better b/c they are cheaper, and I agree they are better for the most part, but whereas you used to be able to safely fling them at large clusters of enemy targets and thus discourage that kind of clustering, now you can't safely do that at all, and so you run a risk of mishap'ing in the worst of ways. Now, that said, you only have a 1/6 chance of an actual super "Bad" mishap result, but even being placed right where they want can mean sticking your Mawloc in the open, under the gun, without cover, and ready for a quick and sloppy death. Not sure how I feel at all about this one yet. Might be hopeful?
Exocrine - Range and BS and some other factors make this an unreliable model at the cost. 6 Plasma shots sounds really good until you realize most turns you're going to be missing with half of them. Still, it's not terrible, you just wish it had a way to get a higher S than 7 on the alternate mode.
Tyrannofex - Basically better, but still an underwhelming unit. Hey look a 2+ save!
Heavy Support Summary - Kinda meh, but maybe the best FOC area? Maybe? There's some potential for various lists in using exocrines, maybe tfexes, carnifexes and biovores. None of them are great units, however. You might actually spend like 50 or 100 bucks getting this up to speed, I guess?
So as a whole what we have is a codex that basically does what the last one does, but does it less well. The psychic powers were all nerfed, most of the good units were nerfed, the units they tried to make into the "new hotness" are not actually the new hotness at all.
IF you're an extant Tyranid player, the nice thing is your investment to make the best reasonably decent list is probably going to be pretty light. In terms of using the rules to sell more models to existing customers (their primary sales model), this looks like a substantial failure on Games Workshop's part. Even players who find ways to be decently good with Nids aren't going to really need to buy many new models to do so. So I guess that's kind of a plus.
PS -
In summary, while every other codex has access to:
3-4 different codices per army via the allies matrix in conjunction w/ formations
Very solid book powers
Power units that can be spammed in a pinch to up the power level of the dex
Tyranid have:
No allies of any kind (at least presently)
No book powers, unique among all codices, and access to very average codex powers
Literally no clear-cut power units within the codex (no riptide, missiletide, wave serpent, gravbiker, etc., equivalent of any sort)
For a 6th edition codex, a subpar release is not something heard of as of yet (CSM, Dark Angels, and SM all fall behind Tau, Daemons, and Eldar in terms of ramping up their power but nothing shockingly nerfed to the extent of Tyranids). Tyranids seems to evoke the strongest response about nerfs yet.
Do you think the Tyranid release warrants a "No thanks, I'll take my money elsewhere" kind of approach?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/01/10 15:41:23
CSM is definitely a subpar book by way of comparision to everything that came after it, though by no means underpowered. The only metric by which it isn't subpar is by way of comparison to the previous CSM book, but if you go one book prior to that... you'll understand why the current one is subpar.... Oh how I miss the 3rd edition (technically 3.5) book...
And I'm boycotting this thread for being pointless. I'll be picking up my copy of the book tonight for sure, been waiting for this update forever now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 15:46:30
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
2014/01/10 15:49:50
Subject: Re:Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
I buy my IG from other sculptors (yay Vic Minis!), and the only GW purchase I'll get in a while will be the IG codex. I really want to start an HH army, but I'm having serious reservations now dumping that much money into a company that produces such subpar rules. Granted, the FW models are beautiful, so I might suck it up and do a small force, but yeah.
I still can't get over the limited edition rule books. I will never understand those who buy them either. They're double the cost for precisely nothing of worth. A different cover (dustjacket, whatever) is not worth $60. For that cost, I'd at least expect some 'favours' from one of the authors.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2014/01/10 15:52:01
Subject: Re:Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
But this appears to be a much more negative reaction than I've seen. And yes, I'm counting the rage-quit and down right nasty reads I've had with books like the CSM release.
I think there are some people like me. I don't think the book will down right suck. I think they will be middle of the roadish.. have some unique quirky stuff but they are not going to be knocking anyone off the top of the hill.
I cancelled my preorder only because I only ever had enough bugs to field the "current" standard build with a few changes here an there. The play style will shift quite a lot and with certain units being removed and ones like the terv not really being viable, I would have to spend a lot of money to rebuild the army. I'm not buying a whole new armies worth of models to stay middle of the road. If I could have bought a few models.. the codex and made a run of it.. I likely would have kept it.. I would be fine banishing the nids to the basement to only be played in home rule games.
Martel732 wrote: So it seems the Nids have broken the trend of Xeno > power armor in 6th ed?
PA - NonPA - PA l was a 5th Ed thing.
Necrons ISBN 978-1-907964-18-3 November 2011 Grey Knights ISBN 978-1-84154-991-0 April 2011 Dark Eldar ISBN 978-1-84154-978-1 November 2010 Blood Angels ISBN 978-1-84154-960-6 April 2010 Tyranids ISBN 978-1-84154-951-4 January 2010 Space Wolves ISBN 978-1-84154-010-8 October 2009 Imperial Guard ISBN 978-1-84154-923-1 May 2009 Space Marines ISBN 978-1-84154-894-4 October 2008
6th ed hasn't had that at all.
Tyranids ISBN TBA January 2014 Inquisition ISBN 978-1782534044 November 2013 (Digital Only Release) Adepta Sororitas ISBN 978-1782533603 October 2013 (Digital Only Release) Space Marines ISBN 978-1782530763 September 2013 Eldar ISBN 978-1782532125 June 2013 Tau Empire ISBN 978-1782530039 April 2013 Chaos Daemons ISBN 978-1908872883 March 2013 Dark Angels ISBN 978-1908872265 January 2013 Chaos Space Marines ISBN 978-1908872029 October 2012
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/10 16:22:36
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
2014/01/10 16:21:27
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
kronk wrote: I have never been tempted to play Nids, but I'm picking up the Codex because I like to read them.
Same. No way am I painting another horde army, but there are a lot of cool Tyranid stories. I also think they make a way better Big Bad than Chaos does.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2014/01/10 16:29:04
Subject: Re:Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
I don't ever remember the threat of a boycott in terms of Codex power. I remember price boycotts but that's about it.
I always think it's best to get the codex and make your own mind up. I'm sure various tournament players will have their thoughts on the codex up over the weekend.
Medium of Death wrote: I don't ever remember the threat of a boycott in terms of Codex power. I remember price boycotts but that's about it.
I always think it's best to get the codex and make your own mind up. I'm sure various tournament players will have their thoughts on the codex up over the weekend.
I've got the option to play in a Tier-2 style tournament on Saturday, if i'm willing to make the hour drive to get there. Using the new tyranids, of course.
Tier-2 because there's a 0-1 restriction on all units from all codices except troops choices. So i could only take 1 trygon, 1 tyrannofex, and 1 brood of biovores in a legal list for example.
Not a great way to test the books overall power but maybe a nice stepping stone on the way to big-boy tournaments. As it stands i'm currently 50/50 about whether or not i'll attend. But if i do i'll post some thoughts here on the forums.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/01/10 17:00:17
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
I wouldn't worry. Allegedly next year we might be getting 7th edition and its almost guaranteed that the meta will turn to favor assault again. Then we'll probably see a decent codex.
TBH my impression from rumors is that not a lot has changed. As opposed to Tau and Eldar where A LOT changed. Rending for basic ranged weapons.
For me, none of the new units are really that good or look nice. Not compared to some of the cooler releases like the trygons, gargoyles and tyrannofexs. The new crab thing feels very chucked in. Plus with the harpy I expected a mini harridan (which is what it is), not a carnifex with wings...
Yeah I think low WS and armor is a big issue for the tyranids.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 17:00:46
Starting Sons of Horus Legion
Starting Daughters of Khaine
2000pts Sisters of Silence
4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts
2014/01/10 17:00:23
Subject: Re:Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
I am not boycotting the new codex, but I am not buying it. I've played Nids since 3rd and despite people who keep saying the ridiculous, "wait until it is out before passing judgement!" I know this codex's power level. You know why? Nothing has really changed from the 5th codex except nerfs. Nothing really got buffed, some things got cheaper which is good but...a bad unit that was overpriced is still a bad unit when priced appropriately. The entire codex has been leaked, I have held to codex in my hands and read over it, there is no saving grace here.
The best way I can describe it is with the argument that this is a narrative driven game. Tyranids in the narrative are a force of nature, so we have an army of hundreds of units which is great...but they all are sub-par. They all fold like tissue paper. The issue is that playing Tyranids in 5th and now 6th you never felt like you army had any unique traits other than throwing more models at the enemy. It works to an extent but then you have something like...the Hive Tyrant which fails to impress as an HQ. It's not bad in melee but it is nothing special with its low armor and low number of attacks. A perfect example is the Swarmlord. Now that he doesn't have access to biomancy he is S6 A4 MC with a 3+/4++ in CC only. Compare him to other CCHQs and he falls somewhere in the middle as far as power level goes but he cost a disgusting 285 points. The codex if filled with examples of units like this, including the Exocrine which is going to be a staple of 6th. It is a BS3 24" S7 AP2 weapon on a T6 W5 3+ MC. It looks great but the actual math break down it isn't going to be doing ALL that much damage and cost a decent amount of points. It feels like they wrote this codex to give other armies an almost NPC faction to fight against, which doesn't make any sense because there are those of us who have been playing this army so long and love the models so much that we continue to play them.
2014/01/10 17:04:26
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
2014/01/10 17:16:20
Subject: Re:Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
Cruddace wrote it.Last time I checked codex Eldar was the worst codex- oh wait it isn't.Despite what they said before it was released..
Kote!
Kandosii sa ka'rte, vode an.
Coruscanta a'den mhi, vode an.
Bal kote,Darasuum kote,
Jorso'ran kando a tome.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad vode an.
Bal...
Motir ca'tra nau tracinya.
Gra'tua cuun hett su dralshy'a.
Aruetyc talyc runi'la trattok'a.
Sa kyr'am nau tracyn kad, vode an!
2014/01/10 17:16:33
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
Maybe they should play a couple 20 games or so before boycotting....
Kings of War Herd
Master Crafted YouTube Channel, your home for all KOW content...deemed not suitable for children, nuns, women or people with even remotely decent morals...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpUodTbAv0XfqvwwG2cBHuA/feed
2014/01/10 17:30:26
Subject: Re:Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
Da krimson barun wrote: Cruddace wrote it.Last time I checked codex Eldar was the worst codex- oh wait it isn't.Despite what they said before it was released..
It's amazing how many powergamers selectively can't remember this.
Da krimson barun wrote: Cruddace wrote it.Last time I checked codex Eldar was the worst codex- oh wait it isn't.Despite what they said before it was released..
It's amazing how many powergamers selectively can't remember this.
Anyone who didn't realize the power of the wave serpent in the first 30 minutes wasn't paying attention. I literally ignore who writes the books anymore. All that matters is the end product.
2014/01/10 18:30:43
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
Totalwar1402 wrote: I wouldn't worry. Allegedly next year we might be getting 7th edition and its almost guaranteed that the meta will turn to favor assault again. Then we'll probably see a decent codex.
TBH my impression from rumors is that not a lot has changed. As opposed to Tau and Eldar where A LOT changed. Rending for basic ranged weapons.
For me, none of the new units are really that good or look nice. Not compared to some of the cooler releases like the trygons, gargoyles and tyrannofexs. The new crab thing feels very chucked in. Plus with the harpy I expected a mini harridan (which is what it is), not a carnifex with wings...
Yeah I think low WS and armor is a big issue for the tyranids.
Favor assault again? So what, be like 3rd edition?
GW design team.
I'd believe it, you've got cruddnce's point costs, Kelly's random tables, Kelly's love of odd artifacts that require killing to activate, and Kelly's every other turn nonsense in melee. With a few confusing Ward text like the Pyrovore's explosive hits all units bomb.
2014/01/10 18:35:16
Subject: Re:Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
They basically ran out of time to publish the codex. To make it right, they would likely have to start over again, and the old one was already way behind.
So somewhere along the line someone high up forced the release, the Models were obviously ready and the penny counters wanted a return, as it costs to sculpt, and they don't want molds sat there for another 6-12 months. The inventory was in supply or on order, so it had to be pushed out.
This really would explain a lot if true. It definitely doesn't feel like they really finished, and I expect (well, hope, really) that a FAQ or update or something will eventually update the book. There just seems to be no rhyme or reason to a lot of the changes. Tyranid Primes went from 80 points to 125, but received 0 buffs or changes. What could the possible reasoning for that be? I mean, this is in a new box that GW is supposed to want to move, but the units in it got literally 0 positive changes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 18:36:01
2014/01/10 18:41:23
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
The only thing i will buy from GW is the Guard Codex when it is released. I got all my models from other companies. My friends and i have decided to no longer buy from GW at all. Simply because it is a disappointing company.
2014/01/10 19:28:03
Subject: Tyranids 6th Edition: Boycott A Terrible Product?
Psienesis wrote: Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.
Or tyranid with necron.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/10 19:29:46
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble