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Oaky, so, your a new player and you have just bought your first starter set. You gat home and open it, excited to get started.
So, fast forward. Youve assembled your minis and your wanting your first game. Whats the first thing you notice?
Unlike the BFSP set, there is no intro booklet, and no breakdown of the forces, their stats, special rules and equipment. Sure, you have the rulebook, but thats all complicated. And where are the stats? There arnt any (at this point, you dont know about the back of the rule book). How do you play?
Whats more, look at the forces. They both look balanced. But thats to your noob eyes.

Fast forward a few months and you can now see the problem. The Skaven force is balanced. It gives you two nice blocks of troops, a commander and mage, 2 support teams and a nice unit of hard hitters.
The HE force by comparison is odd. You have a nice little unit of Seaguard, sure, but only 10 are included. By now you know that spears are pointless in units less than three ranks deep. Infact, worse, hand weapons would be better. Atleast then you would get your parry save. And the Reavers, why only 5 light cavaly? 5 Reavers can be nasty, sure but that requires experience and know how. To the noob, 5 silver helms would have been better, as they are simpler to use. The swordmasters and the mage are nice, and they can be easily used, but the prince? It seems that the other units where just skimped on in order to give him his chickencat.

Then you go into GW. A dwarf player is showing off some cool terrain-a wall of statues. When you ask him about it he tells you he got it in the BFSP starter set, one edidition ago.

So, what can be done to improve the Blood Island set?
Well, for starters add in some terrain and a beginners guide to playing, like in the BFSP set.
Then, replace the chickencat with a standard horse. Use the points saved to replace the seaguard with a unit of 15 spear infantry and 10 archers. You may have to up the Skaven somewhat but still, it will be better. If you have the pamphlet then you can have a section in on using light cavalry, but if not then either replace the Reavers with some Silver Helms, or get rid of them entirely. There are other units out there. Like, say, a Bolt Thrower.

Im sorry for the rant, but ive been needing to get this out of me since i first saw the set. A complete lack of terrain, no beginners guide and a complete neglecting of the HE just to include that massive points sink of a turkey mount.
So? Anyone?
MOO

Agree that griffon prince is just sitting with a broken wing in my desk drawer i dont think i will ever even use it. I was lucky enough that my FLGS had a box of the metal sea guard and i bought a fantasy paint set that had 5 more so i didnt really get the screw there but it pisses me off i only have 5 Reavers and cant buy them except for various online suppliers.

Terrain? What is this terrain you speak of?

I understand a lot of this stuff but balance is something that sort of comes second and terrain third.
I think that balance in a starter set should be the least important thing. Games Workshop doesn't make these starter sets for seasoned players so they get a perfect starter army. They make them to introduce people to the game so balance for future army and even internal balance (in the set) isn't that important because people are just learning rules etc etc.

This brings me to the lack of introduction material. Points values and a little booklet that has some starter scenarios and how to play. Its intimidating as a new player to fgure out the new rulebook yourself.

Terrain shouldn't be included in my opinion....although it would be nice. I say this not because terrain is bad but because terrain is easy to make and if you such at modeling just buy some or slap a shoebox and pop cans on the table. You are just learning the game so it doesn't matter much what the board looks like.

Just my opinion on a few things but overall the starter sets are good but they will never be perfect.

 Field Marshal Wiley wrote:
Agree that griffon prince is just sitting with a broken wing in my desk drawer i dont think i will ever even use it.

Can I have him then? I love the model, don't even play Elves, but he'd look great with my D&D stuff.

That said yeah a few pieces of terrain would of been nice. I guess the only thing is in BFSP the dwarves got a cannon. It'd of been nice to get an artillery piece for each army.

I agree with the Include some Terrain idea. Every previous edition had something by way of terrain in the box.

I liked 6th edition best. That ruined building went straight into the city of Mordheim.

It could even have been something easy like printing on the inside of the box allowing for some papercraft bushes or buildings. It wouldn't be *good* scenery, but it would be scenery enough that you can field your two armies without having to use a pile of books as a manor house.

Hmm, might the dumb elf army make it balanced against the skaven even though it has more points in it?

Personally I think that was an awesome set for the price.

Make your terrain its easy. Making skaven models is not something you can do a good job making from basic cheap/free crafting materials.

That's funny! I just pulled my BFSP box out last night and started assembling the dwarfs. I too was looking at the terrain and thinking how nice some of these older editions were to include things like that.

sing your life wrote:Hmm, might the dumb elf army make it balanced against the skaven even though it has more points in it?

I have to agree, this is true. But i am looking at it from the point of a new player getting into the hobby. The HE starter force is not a good, balanced starting point.

JWhex wrote:Personally I think that was an awesome set for the price.

Make your terrain its easy. Making skaven models is not something you can do a good job making from basic cheap/free crafting materials.

Yes, it is easy to make your own terrain. But my point is that you shouldnt have too. most newbies are not going to want to go about making their own terrain, infact they are unlikely to know how to. And besides, the terrain gave an extra depth to the battlefield, and gives some depth to the first few games, rather than both armies fighting across a blank field.

Mycatdied wrote:That's funny! I just pulled my BFSP box out last night and started assembling the dwarfs. I too was looking at the terrain and thinking how nice some of these older editions were to include things like that.

Indeed. It seems to have only been these newer sets that have dropped this.

 sing your life wrote:
Hmm, might the dumb elf army make it balanced against the skaven even though it has more points in it?

A lot of those points (looks at the Prince on Griffon) you won't be able to use legally until your army is at a points level way beyond the points which come in the box.

A good starter box should have the following:

- Two equal, balanced armies that provide a good starting block should you want to expand either army further
- A good representation of as many of the various types of units in the game as possible (e.g. Wizard, Fast Cavalry, War Machines, Monsters, Infantry)
- "Cool" units, to attract more people (I would have loved to see a Doomwheel in the Skaven force)
- Great looking models
- A bit of terrain to make an instant game more appealing (and more possible)
- A starter booklet to guide complete beginners through the game
- A friendly price tag

Of course, all of these things aren't possible in the same box, especially concerning the last point. But, the more of those things you tick, the better a starter box would be.

I actually thought the Blood Island box set was, with the 40K starter set one of the few things GW is doing right at the moment:

Pocket rulebook - grat
Lovely models (as opposed to the horrible figures in the Dwarf / Goblin set)
Good price

I bought it, was very pleased and I don't really play WFB

 Purifier wrote:
It could even have been something easy like printing on the inside of the box allowing for some papercraft bushes or buildings. It wouldn't be *good* scenery, but it would be scenery enough that you can field your two armies without having to use a pile of books as a manor house.

Back in the 5th box set you got a cardboard watchtower and a small shack with a shed. After buying 3 boxed sets we had good sized armies and a nice start to a terrain collection.

We've used these as part of our Fantasy terrain ever since. Adding something like this back in would really help bring those first few games some added depth to the new player. (GW would probably only view this through their "losing potential plastic terrain sales" short term vision as opposed to a way to draw people into buying more of your models though.)

Wow... That paper terrain is pretty amazing actually. That would definitely go a long way to improving the box sets, and really shouldn't impact a bottom line much!

 Eldarain wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
It could even have been something easy like printing on the inside of the box allowing for some papercraft bushes or buildings. It wouldn't be *good* scenery, but it would be scenery enough that you can field your two armies without having to use a pile of books as a manor house.

Back in the 5th box set you got a cardboard watchtower and a small shack with a shed. After buying 3 boxed sets we had good sized armies and a nice start to a terrain collection.

We've used these as part of our Fantasy terrain ever since. Adding something like this back in would really help bring those first few games some added depth to the new player. (GW would probably only view this through their "losing potential plastic terrain sales" short term vision as opposed to a way to draw people into buying more of your models though.)

Spoiler:

Exactly. Those things are a perfect example of things done right. You say you still use them. My group started buying "proper" terrain, and soon found the paper terrain to look inadequate next to it, and the paper terrain was shelved or thrown away, replaced by more solid buildings. But for those first few games, to draw people in, it was fantastic.

 The Shadow wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
Hmm, might the dumb elf army make it balanced against the skaven even though it has more points in it?

A lot of those points (looks at the Prince on Griffon) you won't be able to use legally until your army is at a points level way beyond the points which come in the box.

A good starter box should have the following:

- Two equal, balanced armies that provide a good starting block should you want to expand either army further
- A good representation of as many of the various types of units in the game as possible (e.g. Wizard, Fast Cavalry, War Machines, Monsters, Infantry)
- "Cool" units, to attract more people (I would have loved to see a Doomwheel in the Skaven force)
- Great looking models
- A bit of terrain to make an instant game more appealing (and more possible)
- A starter booklet to guide complete beginners through the game
- A friendly price tag

Of course, all of these things aren't possible in the same box, especially concerning the last point. But, the more of those things you tick, the better a starter box would be.

Have an exalt for that.
Everything you have said there is true, and i actually failed to notice the illegal chickencat myself, so plus 1 there.

A good HE force in my opinion would be: a Prince on foot, with a hand weapon, shield and heavy armour, 15 Spear men, 10 Archers, and 10 Swordmasters. Optionally, 10 cavalry would also be fun as well, preferably Silver Helms or other heavy cavalry. Light cavalry, as i have already stated, require a know how to use effectively. And i have on many an occasion in my local GW seen a poor noob ignore the bows, and free reform ability, and attempt to use the Reavers as heavy cavalry, charging them straight into a 20 strong block of Skaven spear rats, as opposed to reforming into a column and hurtling around the flank to threaten it, and pelt the unit with arrows. Not that five archers on horseback can pelt much.....
Light cavalry require a know how to use effectively, something that requires an understanding of how the game works.

I don't think fantasy has had any actual terrain in the starter set since 5th ed



I do however agree with the Idea that variety would be nice in the starter set. BFSP was IMO a perfect starter set and 6th edition wasn't bad either.

However I will say IOB did give Skaven players a good place to stock up on clan rats.

Edit: 6th had the Tower

 DarkWind wrote:
I don't think fantasy has had any actual terrain in the starter set since 5th ed

Spoiler:

I do however agree with the Idea that variety would be nice in the starter set. BFSP was IMO a perfect starter set and 6th edition wasn't bad either.

However I will say IOB did give Skaven players a good place to stock up on clan rats.

Unfortunately half of them with spears. I've done a lot of improvised spearblade-knives, torches and so forth just to make it all more handweapon oriented.
That said, it is a fantastic box for Skaven players, and the special models (Warlord, Engineer and Rat Ogres) are all absolutely fantastic sculpts. Some of the best WHFB has ever seen and on par with the Forgeworld Skaven Greater Daemon, in my book.

 Purifier wrote:

 DarkWind wrote:
I don't think fantasy has had any actual terrain in the starter set since 5th ed

Spoiler:

I do however agree with the Idea that variety would be nice in the starter set. BFSP was IMO a perfect starter set and 6th edition wasn't bad either.

However I will say IOB did give Skaven players a good place to stock up on clan rats.

Unfortunately half of them with spears. I've done a lot of improvised spearblade-knives, torches and so forth just to make it all more handweapon oriented.
That said, it is a fantastic box for Skaven players, and the special models (Warlord, Engineer and Rat Ogres) are all absolutely fantastic sculpts. Some of the best WHFB has ever seen and on par with the Forgeworld Skaven Greater Daemon, in my book.

Yes, the Skaven army is better than the Battalion set when it comes to starting a new army. You get all you need for a stable basis. Throw in another 2-4 Ratogres, 20 Clanrats and a few other things of your choice and your ready to go. Such a pity, though, that there are no rules for using your new army in the set, meaning that you have to shell out on the Army Book to find out how to use those cool weapon teams.
BFSP, however, had 2 armies, both offering a good and stable base for starting an army. And, more to the point, both where legal.