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This is my take on why nids struggle in 6th and why the past few books have been bad and possibly why GW just doesn't "get it" when making new army books for certain armies...

For starters, Tyranids were my first army and I started playing them back before anything had a proper codex when 3rd just came out (the 3rd BRB had army lists for every army to build stuff from). So I am no stranger to 40k or Tyrands.

That said, I saw Nids go from an army that can handle any other army and do well to a codex that just pales in contrast to just about every other one and one that will be hard pressed to win any competitive events.

One of the biggest problems Nids face now is that they were always a close combat army at the core and as assaulting has become less effective, Nids in general have also become less effective. There is a direct correlation between how powerful Nids have been and how powerful CC was in each edition (just like with Orks).

Furthermore, Nids rely on cover and terrain to get by and get in close to deliver their shooting and charges. With the changes to cover and terrain, thing are just easier to shoot dead than ever before and with Ignores Cover being SO prevalent now (which is a GARBAGE game mechanic to have so readily available for so many armies), Nids just lack the survivability to get in close where they want to be.

Therefore, an army that has always been a consummate close combat army that now has to compete in an edition where combat is of minimal import and where an army that has traditionally relied on cover and terrain where both are either meaningless or have a very limited utility...Tyranids are hamstrung from a very fundamental level and need some extra rules or oomph to compensate for these limitations and inherent weaknesses.

Certain rules that will make CC units fast enough or resilient enough to reliably get into combat and effective when they get there are essential for an army like Tyranids. The previous and current codex simply do not have rules or stats in place to facilitate this.

Furthermore, since we currently play in an edition where shooting is the primary way to remove units and cause damage, Tyranids needed effective shooting options to compete with other armies but they simply don't. For example, their ranged anti-tank is virtually non-existent because Hive Guard, Zoantropes and the limited number of shots from a Tyrannofex/Heavy Venom Cannons either can't be spammed to the point of being effective or have too short a range. Don't get me started on their complete lack of reliable AA!

As an example, an army with just 1-3 Las Cannon shots will probably not kill more than a few vehicles in a game compared to an army with 6-10 which will prob kill a much greater number of vehicles (bonus because those armies likely have access to Prescience which Nids don't have access to). Nids simply lack the number of high strength shots at a decent range to take out opposing vehicles which will be able to kite anything with a gun in a Nid army. Furthermore, NOTHING in a Nid army has skyfire except for the Flying MCs and even then, the only options are a Flyrant with S6 shooting (laughable against most flyers) or a Crone which is a flying paper bag of flaming dog poop that has more survivability issues than Steven Hawking in a UFC match...

As I mentioned above, Nids are primarily a CC army in their core army design so their shooting must necessarily be mediocre to compensate for their awesome CC focus...however, since they are no longer the CC army of doom they used to be (Stealers used to just flat out ignore armor for crying out loud!) and how CC is weaker in general this edition-Tyranids really should have had their shooting capabilities buffed to make them able to hold their own against other armies absent any buffs to survivability/CC that they still sorely need and didn't get.

Therefore, the failure in the new codex is multi-faceted because the "design team" was building the army on a faulty foundation, the structure and meat of the codex must necessarily have problems as well.

1.) Nids needed buffs to resiliency in the form of improved stats/saves or rules to ensure they can get into combat or range to do something other than die horribly. They simply did not get them.

2.) Nids needed better shooting to have a way of meaningfully dealing with tanks at range as well as SOME way to deal with flyers in a meaningful and reliable way. They simply lack any way to handle flyers outside of a few overpriced and underpowered units.

3.) Anything that got "cheaper" didn't actually get cheaper...they were either waaay overcosted to begin with and finally got priced to what they should have been in the previous codex (and should actually be cheaper than they currently are) or the upgrades necessary to make them effective went up in points so they actually got more expensive.

4.) Some things either stayed the same points cost or got more expensive for no good or justifiable reason along with nothing being done to address glaring problems in their stats, rules, utility or effectiveness.

With all of that said, nids are a failure now and it's really sad because GW could have done so much with them (and every other army TBH). We are able to overlook the failures of certain other codecs because they have many varied and playable units/builds. Nids have none.

One of the biggest problems Nids face now is that they were always a close combat army at the core and as assaulting has become less effective, Nids in general have also become less effective. There is a direct correlation between how powerful Nids have been and how powerful CC was in each edition (just like with Orks).

Furthermore, Nids rely on cover and terrain to get by and get in close to deliver their shooting and charges. With the changes to cover and terrain, thing are just easier to shoot dead than ever before and with Ignores Cover being SO prevalent now (which is a GARBAGE game mechanic to have so readily available for so many armies), Nids just lack the survivability to get in close where they want to be.

Therefore, an army that has always been a consummate close combat army that now has to compete in an edition where combat is of minimal import and where an army that has traditionally relied on cover and terrain where both are either meaningless or have a very limited utility...Tyranids are hamstrung from a very fundamental level and need some extra rules or oomph to compensate for these limitations and inherent weaknesses.

As an Ork player, I feel your pain and agree with everything here.

Can't wait for our new dex

;_;

Indeed, at least orks can sort of spam 2+ saves and armor 14 (front) but they are in dire need of some fresh new rules and changes-I hope they don't have to wait as long as they did since thier 3rd edition codex was updated for thier changes!

 mortetvie wrote:


That said, I saw Nids go from an army that can handle any other army and do well to a codex that just pales in contrast to just about every other one and one that will be hard pressed to win any competitive events.

Is that really true? We had a reasonably vicious, one Flyrant list that murdered most things in the last 15 or 20 games - vanilla marines, BA, chaos daemons, CSM, was about 50/50 with spacewolves, and lost to a tailored Space Wolves list.

Yes, we do seem to have taken a nerf, but starting your post with a dodgy premise like this doesn't help your argument. It just sounds like a complaint that your army is not OP.

And as for the books being failures, word from the major London independent and online retailer is that the new range is a huge seller. So, while I sympathise, there's another false premise.

 Dakkamite wrote:
As an Ork player, I feel your pain and agree with everything here.

Can't wait for our new dex

;_;

I hope yours isn't a step backwards like ours.

Tracing the lineage of bad Tyranid Codices is easy:

In 3rd Tyranids didn't work because of "Shoot the Big Ones", which really just meant "Shoot the Good Ones", because you'd just kill the Carnifexes before they did anything. Most Tyranid armies abused the hell out of the "mutable genus" rules (I know I sure as hell did) to get a minimum amount of species (usually 3) to maximise the amount of Rending Claw mutants you could have in a unit of Gaunts. So Tyranid armies had three units - Hive Tyrants, Rending Claw Mutant Hordes, Carnifexes. Sometimes Tyrant Guard. No one took Warriors, Lictors, Biovores, Raveners - anything really - because they were all junk. Tyranids were not ok in 3rd.

So 4th came along, and with it GW's desire to sell their brand new plastic Carnifex. This was the time of the Nidzilla (and the original Stealer Shock). Unfortunately, that’s all they could do. Try playing ‘Nids in any other way resulted in a sub-par army that couldn’t really do anything. If you weren’t packing 2 HT’s and 4-6 Carnifexes (or hadn’t gone full Stealer Shock) then you weren’t going to have much luck. No one took Warriors, Lictors, Biovores, Raveners – anything really – because they were all junk. Tyranids were not ok in 4th.

And in 5th… well we know about that already. They couldn’t get by without a couple of units (Tervigons, Hive Guard). Stealer Shock still worked, but Nidzilla was basically dead in the water with the way ‘Fexes worked (or didn’t work). Spores could mitigate some factors, but then the FAQ ruined a significant portion of that (Primes not being able to join units pre-game). Tyranids were not ok in 5th.

And now we have... whatever this new Codex is, perhaps the worst book since the 4th Edition 'Chaos' Codex.

In my opinion, the reason is: nobody in the studio likes the army. They did the codex in a rush, and the lack of enthusiasm is apparent.

Same with Chaos codex. Or Adepta Sororitas / Sisters of Battle. Or the Inquisition.

Nobody cares about quality in the company. If the Codex writer likes the army, you get a good Codex. If this is not the case, you get a joke. Zero internal or external balance, with a pair of must-take units. Business as usual, coming to think of it.

 da001 wrote:
In my opinion, the reason is: nobody in the studio likes the army. They did the codex in a rush, and the lack of enthusiasm is apparent.

Same with Chaos codex. Or Adepta Sororitas / Sisters of Battle. Or the Inquisition.

Nobody cares about quality in the company. If the Codex writer likes the army, you get a good Codex. If this is not the case, you get a joke. Zero internal or external balance, with a pair of must-take units. Business as usual, coming to think of it.

I agree with this for the most part. The design studio has terrible quality control and it appears that the designers just are not that talented or there are too few of them to do a good job.

I think they are talented.
Kelly did a good job with Eldar & Dark Eldar.
Cruddace with Imperial Guard 5th or Space Marines 6th.
Ward is awful concerning the fluff, but GK or Necrons have lots of different builds. You can pick some concept and build the army around it, and it is fun.

So I guess there are few of them. And they have become lazy when it comes to do stuff for armies they don´t like. The problem is a lack of interest.

And the company has zero quality control and zero change management, so if a writer does not his job, nothing happens. Nobody does any test or, if tests are done, nobody cares about the results.

 da001 wrote:
In my opinion, the reason is: nobody in the studio likes the army. They did the codex in a rush, and the lack of enthusiasm is apparent.

Same with Chaos codex. Or Adepta Sororitas / Sisters of Battle. Or the Inquisition.

Nobody cares about quality in the company. If the Codex writer likes the army, you get a good Codex. If this is not the case, you get a joke. Zero internal or external balance, with a pair of must-take units. Business as usual, coming to think of it.

Mostly agree. Apart from the codex inquisition comment. That has some of the most undercosted units in the game by a country mile. It also opens the potential to combinations that are so cheap its ridiculous.

Agreed. Tyranids, CSM and to some extent Vanilla Marines carry over a lot of dead weight from past editions. New books often just build upon deeply flawed or outdated cores.

The short answer is that GW want Marines to be cinematic. That means shooting Nids apart at range and heroically overcoming them in assault.

I've played in several gaming groups over the years and, generally, that is how Marine players now see Tyranids.

GW see us as Games Masters running a shooting gallery for the actual 'players'.

We are an assault army without transports. IG level Weaponskill. And now we blow ourselves up or eat each other.

 Souleater wrote:
The short answer is that GW want Marines to be cinematic. That means shooting Nids apart at range and heroically overcoming them in assault.

I've played in several gaming groups over the years and, generally, that is how Marine players now see Tyranids.

GW see us as Games Masters running a shooting gallery for the actual 'players'.

We are an assault army without transports. IG level Weaponskill. And now we blow ourselves up or eat each other.

The same applies to Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons.

I just don't understand what to do in this situation. They clearly produced something that was crap, and either wanted it to be that way or didn't care either way.

So where as before with the 5th eidtion codex i was like Hell yeah i can't wait for a new dex. 2 codex's of crap have lead me to believe nids will always suck.

Im not asking to even be on the same level as the top 5 Codex's. I am asking for the ability to tactically win games that might be a 50 50 split against the top dex's.

If GW is trying to promote a fun product for all, WHERE are they looking?

 Souleater wrote:
The short answer is that GW want Marines to be cinematic. That means shooting Nids apart at range and heroically overcoming them in assault.

Until the time comes for them to get blown to bits by Tau or Eldar

 mortetvie wrote:
Steven Hawking in a UFC match...

First, it's Stephen Hawking. Second, this is grossly inappropriate.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
The short answer is that GW want Marines to be cinematic. That means shooting Nids apart at range and heroically overcoming them in assault.

Until the time comes for them to get blown to bits by Tau or Eldar

You know you're just the plucky sidekicks, right?

Krucho1986 wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:
Steven Hawking in a UFC match...

First, it's Stephen Hawking. Second, this is grossly inappropriate.

Bit of an over reaction buddy.

Anyway I must admit that if what has been said is true then it would seem like games workshop really does have an issue with unenthusiastic codex writers.

JWhex wrote:
The design studio has terrible quality control and it appears that the designers just are not that talented or there are too few of them to do a good job.

They need to start outsourcing. Get a small, good and stable crop of freelancers all working together to create better Codices.

So I see your argument as this...

New Nid book is not the most overpowered Codex = new Nid book is a failure.

The Tau and Eldar codex's are overpowered and can be a problem to play against. This has somehow fostered the idea that if a new Codex doesn't easily beat Tau, it's a failure. There is nothing wrong with the Tyranid book, some things got better, some got worse, some things were taken away and some things were added. This is what happens with every new book, every time. The fact that Tyranids may not be the new "Tournament Power Army" does not make it a failure.

When a new book comes out only one of two things ever happens. All of the people who play that army cry about how underpowered it is, or if it is overpowered, everyone else cries about how broken it is. Then people like me cry about how irritating the cry babies are.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
So I see your argument as this...

New Nid book is not the most overpowered Codex = new Nid book is a failure.

If that's what you see it as, then you have poor reading comprehension.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
So I see your argument as this...

New Nid book is not the most overpowered Codex = new Nid book is a failure.

If that's what you see it as, then you have poor reading comprehension.

No, I'd say I pretty much nailed it.

 da001 wrote:
In my opinion, the reason is: nobody in the studio likes the army.

Not true.

Phil Kelly apparently has a sizable private Nid army

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=1700100-gws

The tyranids didnt have to be overpowered, you had fun list and competitive lists that could win, now got harder to do that since they give us less options to pick on tools to make the tyranids lists better. I´ve never seen scything talons do nothing other than ap6 like in this codex, or was +1A in most cases or the previous some bonus re-rolls sacrificing attacks (per pair) now not even a pair grants anything, have to get 2 pairs to get 1 attack.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
So I see your argument as this...

New Nid book is not the most overpowered Codex = new Nid book is a failure.

The Tau and Eldar codex's are overpowered and can be a problem to play against. This has somehow fostered the idea that if a new Codex doesn't easily beat Tau, it's a failure. There is nothing wrong with the Tyranid book, some things got better, some got worse, some things were taken away and some things were added. This is what happens with every new book, every time. The fact that Tyranids may not be the new "Tournament Power Army" does not make it a failure.

When a new book comes out only one of two things ever happens. All of the people who play that army cry about how underpowered it is, or if it is overpowered, everyone else cries about how broken it is. Then people like me cry about how irritating the cry babies are.

Dakka sure is full of condescending....

Listen, the reason THIS codex is getting so much crap is because it is worse than the codex that preceded it. That says a lot because the codex before it was 2/3s crap and 1/3 decent, now they just nerfed the 1/3 that was decent so it is 100% crap which has lead to me actually thinking about running Pyrovores because now they aren't THAT much worse than the other options around them.

JWhex wrote:

 da001 wrote:
In my opinion, the reason is: nobody in the studio likes the army. They did the codex in a rush, and the lack of enthusiasm is apparent.

Same with Chaos codex. Or Adepta Sororitas / Sisters of Battle. Or the Inquisition.

Nobody cares about quality in the company. If the Codex writer likes the army, you get a good Codex. If this is not the case, you get a joke. Zero internal or external balance, with a pair of must-take units. Business as usual, coming to think of it.

I agree with this for the most part. The design studio has terrible quality control and it appears that the designers just are not that talented or there are too few of them to do a good job.

They seem to have done a pretty good job in WHFB.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
So I see your argument as this...

New Nid book is not the most overpowered Codex = new Nid book is a failure.

If that's what you see it as, then you have poor reading comprehension.

No, I'd say I pretty much nailed it.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
So I see your argument as this...

New Nid book is not the most overpowered Codex = new Nid book is a failure.

The Tau and Eldar codex's are overpowered and can be a problem to play against. This has somehow fostered the idea that if a new Codex doesn't easily beat Tau, it's a failure. There is nothing wrong with the Tyranid book, some things got better, some got worse, some things were taken away and some things were added. This is what happens with every new book, every time. The fact that Tyranids may not be the new "Tournament Power Army" does not make it a failure.

When a new book comes out only one of two things ever happens. All of the people who play that army cry about how underpowered it is, or if it is overpowered, everyone else cries about how broken it is. Then people like me cry about how irritating the cry babies are.

Well hold on there mate. I don't play nids and whilst I hold an interest in them, I have more interest in my 3 armies and would still build 2-4 other armies before I work on building a Nid force. And you know what? The codex is looking underpowered to me. There aren't many buffs. Every psyker MC got a drastic nerf, the loss of spores tales away a way of deploying, for Pete's sake rippers became more expensive! The amount of buffs are minor. Want to know another sub par codex? CSM but no we have the riptide so we don't get to talk. We can't have legions because Spees Muhrinez deserve to be capable of representing companies of 100 within their chapter because they are truly the most diverse army. I wanted nids to be buffed but I was afraid they might become Eldar/tau level good. Do you want to know how painful it is to field a Tzeentch army that isn't daemons? Where your sorcerers suck and light be able to beat only nids at psyker usefulness/effectiveness. I don't want to be broken op. I play for fun. I want a close battle not a match where I am roflstomped or I roflstomp somebody. I am concerned with this because a balanced codex good for competitive play is good for fun! An army without internal imbalance nor external imbalance is the goal. No you will never get it. You will be more capable of perfect imbalance. But GW doesn't care for balance they hardly even FAQ things meaning people argue long after it is over. You can get cover from shooting except not if ignores cover and marker lights ignore cover because... don't know.

I hold some shred of hope I am missing something but for now I remain cynical and sad that another book will probably join the ranks of SoB and CSM for bland, restrictive, sub-par, emotionless books that restrict you to a single list at best.

Long story short: they actually found a way to make pyrovores arguably WORSE!

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
So I see your argument as this...

New Nid book is not the most overpowered Codex = new Nid book is a failure.

The Tau and Eldar codex's are overpowered and can be a problem to play against. This has somehow fostered the idea that if a new Codex doesn't easily beat Tau, it's a failure. There is nothing wrong with the Tyranid book, some things got better, some got worse, some things were taken away and some things were added. This is what happens with every new book, every time. The fact that Tyranids may not be the new "Tournament Power Army" does not make it a failure.

When a new book comes out only one of two things ever happens. All of the people who play that army cry about how underpowered it is, or if it is overpowered, everyone else cries about how broken it is. Then people like me cry about how irritating the cry babies are.

You nailed it my friend. Any codex that isn't Tau or Elder power level will be deemed a failure. Most of the complaints fielded apply to chaos and chaos daemons as well, but it seems to me that Nids will likely outclass both of those armies.

 Wilytank wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 da001 wrote:
In my opinion, the reason is: nobody in the studio likes the army. They did the codex in a rush, and the lack of enthusiasm is apparent.

Same with Chaos codex. Or Adepta Sororitas / Sisters of Battle. Or the Inquisition.

Nobody cares about quality in the company. If the Codex writer likes the army, you get a good Codex. If this is not the case, you get a joke. Zero internal or external balance, with a pair of must-take units. Business as usual, coming to think of it.

I agree with this for the most part. The design studio has terrible quality control and it appears that the designers just are not that talented or there are too few of them to do a good job.

They seem to have done a pretty good job in WHFB.

Well except the old daemon book actually broke an entire edition, the new daemon codex has probably the worst internal balance I have ever seen with only a few okay-good units and a single one is truly broken. Khorne has like one maybe 2 worthwhile picks, Tzeentch has maaaybe 1 or 2? Nurgle is generally good and Slaanesh is decent. Oh and High Elves have a way to hard counter daemons like no other.