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So I've been playing GW games and a few other systems for the better part of seven years and I've seen plenty of radical changes: prices skyrocketing, superheavies being allowed in regular games...

What has struck me recently is the extent to which these games develop some kind of consensus culture about how they should be played (aka 'the metagame'). The current 'average metagame', going by what I've played and what I've seen online, is pointswise 1750 - 2000 points for 40k and 2500 - 3000 for Fantasy, with the same standardised tournament lists showing up again and again. What people don't seem to realise is that these games systems are WAY more flexible than this narrow metagame which everyone wants to play!

What is missing is the idea that you have ownership of the product you have spent so much friggin money on. Instead, gamers are happy to go along with whatever their games company of choice churns out. Unbalancing small-scale games by allowing Titans? Cool! Releasing so many codexes, supplements, dataslates, etcetera that no one can keep up with the rules anymore? *shrugs* That's fine!

You have to realise that many gaming companies, GW in particular, are in no way interested in your enjoyment of the game. They are profit-crazed corporate enterprises who want to sell you maximum amounts of product. The only way to fight back is to take their product from them, by appropriating the games you paid for.

Play games at point levels of your choice. Don't like a rule? House rule it out! Think tournament lists are unfluffy and lame? Make a fluffy list and play against people who feel the same.

Maybe the problem is that no one in today's society believes they have agency anymore. We're so used to corporations and governments telling us what to do that we are unable to change things that are obviously wrong because no one's pushing our buttons. All you need to do is apply a little bit of effort and will.

It's the government.

They're after you.

They'll never stop.

 Orky-Kowboy wrote:
Don't like a rule? House rule it out!

Counter: If we wanted to design better rules, we wouldn't have bothered paying for these.

 Orky-Kowboy wrote:
So I've been playing GW games and a few other systems for the better part of seven years and I've seen plenty of radical changes: prices skyrocketing, superheavies being allowed in regular games...

What has struck me recently is the extent to which these games develop some kind of consensus culture about how they should be played (aka 'the metagame'). The current 'average metagame', going by what I've played and what I've seen online, is pointswise 1750 - 2000 points for 40k and 2500 - 3000 for Fantasy, with the same standardised tournament lists showing up again and again. What people don't seem to realise is that these games systems are WAY more flexible than this narrow metagame which everyone wants to play!

What is missing is the idea that you have ownership of the product you have spent so much friggin money on. Instead, gamers are happy to go along with whatever their games company of choice churns out. Unbalancing small-scale games by allowing Titans? Cool! Releasing so many codexes, supplements, dataslates, etcetera that no one can keep up with the rules anymore? *shrugs* That's fine!

You have to realise that many gaming companies, GW in particular, are in no way interested in your enjoyment of the game. They are profit-crazed corporate enterprises who want to sell you maximum amounts of product. The only way to fight back is to take their product from them, by appropriating the games you paid for.

Play games at point levels of your choice. Don't like a rule? House rule it out! Think tournament lists are unfluffy and lame? Make a fluffy list and play against people who feel the same.

Maybe the problem is that no one in today's society believes they have agency anymore. We're so used to corporations and governments telling us what to do that we are unable to change things that are obviously wrong because no one's pushing our buttons. All you need to do is apply a little bit of effort and will.

Because in the end we need a framework everyone can agree to, given that we cant even agree to games workshop rules, so how could we even remotley agree on house rules and home made rules, enjoy going to a tourney that has completly diffrent rules than your used to using.

People play whatever variation lets them find opponents.
It's fine to talk about house rules if you generally only play with a group of friends, but outside of those circles people like knowing that they can show up on 40k night at their new local gaming store and play essentially the same game they played in a different part of the country a month ago.
Gamers are constantly coming up with variations on existing rules and playing through them with like minded friends. They don't present annotated rulebooks to random opponents to familiarize themselves with prior to playing because most random opponents want to play 40k and not "Steve's Improved 40k v3.6 I Took Out the Racist Stuff This Time Edition".

 plastictrees wrote:
People play whatever variation lets them find opponents.

This. I play a fairly streamlined game of 40K with my gaming buddy, but I play the full game with my gaming club (or more likely I play another game). But in the club I play the full game for the greatest chance of getting a game at all.

 Orky-Kowboy wrote:

Play games at point levels of your choice. Don't like a rule? House rule it out! Think tournament lists are unfluffy and lame? Make a fluffy list and play against people who feel the same.

Maybe the problem is that no one in today's society believes they have agency anymore. We're so used to corporations and governments telling us what to do that we are unable to change things that are obviously wrong because no one's pushing our buttons. All you need to do is apply a little bit of effort and will.

Precisely what many people do. Great if you belong to a group.

Bishop F Gantry wrote:

Because in the end we need a framework everyone can agree to, given that we cant even agree to games workshop rules, so how could we even remotley agree on house rules and home made rules, enjoy going to a tourney that has completly diffrent rules than your used to using.

Play at a tournament? You have undoubtedly played by house rules.
Played using a composition score at one - house rule.
Played by "X not included" or "Y may not be used", then you have played by house rules.

EVEN GW have used them at their own events.

There has NEVER been a global inclusive rule set for tournament play - different groups have used their own house rules over the last 27ish years. If you agree to play in a tourney that uses them, then YOU HAVE agreed to abide by house rules.

But gamers =/= sheep. Sheep often have more common sense.

...And on average, they smell quite a bit more pleasant.

I see us more like lemmings.

Its odd because as a player who has never played pick up games or anything like that, i have never found many problems with the rules or any issues with meta or anything. I play the same 15 people sometimes others come infrequently but we all play whatever we feel like and well nothing bad comes of it. I think the problem lies not with rules and such but more with people unable to play in a setting where its with the same people or friends. All my friends except one play the game so in a closed system where everyone knows each other well gets along all the problems (well in my opinion problems like tournament style play 24/7 etc) dont come up. Nothing is done without being planned at least a week before hand so there are never surprises and so on.

If you can start a club and make friends, start a communal terrain fund and get a fully functional club set up, your gaming experience will be enhanced in every way. But the key is to make friends in the hobby. Its just limits issues overall.

The above is based off me reading and talking with the experiences of others who have had pick up games, but soon i may end up trying it out but if it turns out like the style of gaming people on the internet talk about then im just gonna stick to my group indefinitely.

In short i wouldnt say gamers a sheep, just unable to use any from of constant rules everyone knows when your opponents change frequently.

Reduced to it's main points:

 Orky-Kowboy wrote:


-What has struck me recently is the extent to which these games develop some kind of consensus culture about how they should be played (aka 'the metagame'). T

-What people don't seem to realise is that these games systems are WAY more flexible than this narrow metagame which everyone wants to play!

-What is missing is the idea that you have ownership of the product you have spent so much friggin money on. Instead, gamers are happy to go along with whatever their games company of choice churns out. -

-GW in particular, are in no way interested in your enjoyment of the game. They are profit-crazed corporate enterprises

I agree. Overall, this really seems to be the way things are going and the general state of the "GW hobby".

Your conclusions however...

 Orky-Kowboy wrote:

-The only way to fight back is to take their product from them, by appropriating the games you paid for.

-Maybe the problem is that no one in today's society believes they have agency anymore.

-We're so used to corporations and governments telling us what to do that we are unable to change things that are obviously wrong because no one's pushing our buttons. All you need to do is apply a little bit of effort and will.

I don't entirely agree. It isn't as simple as brainwashing. For better or worse, 40k and it's accompanying community is a system designed to get the maximum number of people playing the same game. It's this 'sameness' that makes it so easy to get a pickup game most anywhere that wargaming occurs, and gives folks common ground to discuss the game endlessly on the internet. The ubiquity of GW is probably the largest reason that folks don't turn to other gaming products. As I've said before, I completely understand folks who are willing to pay a premium for the ubiquity of GW and it's built-in-community.

However, It's been my experience that in general (not true for everyone) folks who want to do their own thing and exercise their own "agency" don't play GW games, or if they do play GW games, they look elsewhere for variety. If someone decides to do their own thing and isn't concerned with the GW community, there's little reason to spend the ultra-premium prices that GW charges for their minis, rules, codicies, etc. I agree that dissatisfied players should take ownership of their games. It's just that most folks who are truely dissatisfied enough with the GW system to "do their own thing" find little reason to remain within that system. Those who are content with what GW offers don't have any real reason to change the consensus/metagame/culture/etc.

Lastly, if I can offer a small analogy. An imperfect one, but still instructive:
Folks who are dissatisfied with a given chain restaurant can complain about the way the menu is structured, or the layout of the tables, or even the contents of the menu. The company can (and sometimes does) change, and if customers whims change, the menu may change etc. However, most folks dissatisfied with a given chain restaurant simply eat somewhere else. When a dissatisfied customer stands in the lobby and asks "Why is no one here outraged about _________________ at this restaurant" the answer is simply that the outraged folks have left and those who remain are happy with what they get.

 Orky-Kowboy wrote:
So I've been playing GW games and a few other systems for the better part of seven years and I've seen plenty of radical changes: prices skyrocketing, superheavies being allowed in regular games...

What has struck me recently is the extent to which these games develop some kind of consensus culture about how they should be played (aka 'the metagame'). The current 'average metagame', going by what I've played and what I've seen online, is pointswise 1750 - 2000 points for 40k and 2500 - 3000 for Fantasy, with the same standardised tournament lists showing up again and again. What people don't seem to realise is that these games systems are WAY more flexible than this narrow metagame which everyone wants to play!

What is missing is the idea that you have ownership of the product you have spent so much friggin money on. Instead, gamers are happy to go along with whatever their games company of choice churns out. Unbalancing small-scale games by allowing Titans? Cool! Releasing so many codexes, supplements, dataslates, etcetera that no one can keep up with the rules anymore? *shrugs* That's fine!

You have to realise that many gaming companies, GW in particular, are in no way interested in your enjoyment of the game. They are profit-crazed corporate enterprises who want to sell you maximum amounts of product. The only way to fight back is to take their product from them, by appropriating the games you paid for.

Play games at point levels of your choice. Don't like a rule? House rule it out! Think tournament lists are unfluffy and lame? Make a fluffy list and play against people who feel the same.

Maybe the problem is that no one in today's society believes they have agency anymore. We're so used to corporations and governments telling us what to do that we are unable to change things that are obviously wrong because no one's pushing our buttons. All you need to do is apply a little bit of effort and will.

I am certain that is the reason, thats why GW got hit with a 30% profit drop from last year. Oh wait...

I think there's a couple factors in this kind of thing:

Network effect: Popular games get played because it's easier to find opponents. Whys pend 40+ hours painting minis for a game no one has ever heard of and may not want to try when you know people will be up for 40k at the local shop?

From on High: GW certainly isn't perfect, but they're seen as elevated and impartial (most of the time) or at least, they aren't specifically targeting you. If your friends make their own rules, there's concern that the rules will favor the friend's armies, while GW is perceived as above this, or at least not as personal about it.

It's always nice to see the revival of late 19th century French anarcho-syndaclism.

The problem with the OP's thesis is that far from the Great Satan imposing a style of play on 'the community', they offer plenty of ways to play the game. If there is a problem of mono-gaming that lies entirely within the Kultur of 'the community'.

Doesn't this thread need the "Wake-up Sheeple" webcomic?

I use to rail against this as well. Then I stopped playing pick-up games and Tourneys. It got better.

 Easy E wrote:
Doesn't this thread need the "Wake-up Sheeple" webcomic?

I use to rail against this as well. Then I stopped playing pick-up games and Tourneys. It got better.

Exactly, but I just stopped playing GW games, it got ALLOT better and I can still play in pick-up games and tournaments.

Unfortunately, some people don't have the luxury of a stable group to play with.

Others simply enjoy going to Tournaments- despite their bad press, they are a fun way to pack a lot of gaming into a weekend, meet new people and have a few beers.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I see us more like lemmings.

Forced to run around on a turn table then get pushed off a cliff by Disney so that they can propagate/create an urban legend for sales because we're in actuality a fairly normal and thus ultimately boring group of animals?

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I see us more like lemmings.

This !

It has nothing to do with gaming, people a sheep. Really, go outside watch people, read a paper, watch the News, see Starbucks. Sadly we live in a world were people want someone else to think for them. Worse part the don't even care if it is a machine or human thinking for them "Hey, look my car can drive itself".

Moo.

You think this is bad try playing a game of Chess with different numbers or positions of pieces on the board or with house rules! You won't get half a chance to!

3D chess is about the best there is and only Startrek geeks play that




Also on the subject of points costs er what? Values change all the time - people play 500 - 1000 - 2000 - 5000 point games all the time. Yes there is a general medium point; that is more popular - its a trade off between getting lots of stuff on the table and the amount of time it takes to actually play (many would love to play 10K point games - if htey had a room big enough and enough time to finish).

Actually wait people have - its call Apoc games (and GW released the rules for that).


I don't really get the point of the OP - its saying that people play the game the same and that that makes them like sheep - yet varying point values - house rules etc.. are all very common place things.

 Overread wrote:
You think this is bad try playing a game of Chess with different numbers or positions of pieces on the board or with house rules! You won't get half a chance to!

3D chess is about the best there is and only Startrek geeks play that

Knightmare Chess is where it's at.

If you've got one of the 4 player Chess sets and both card sets, the game can get real ridiculous fast.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I see us more like lemmings.

Forced to run around on a turn table then get pushed off a cliff by Disney so that they can propagate/create an urban legend for sales because we're in actuality a fairly normal and thus ultimately boring group of animals?

Yup. Then we get donated to a university, and spend the next 50+ years sitting between a legless Echidna and a hedgehog with a triangle of cardboard shoved up its rear.

See, this is exactly the kind of attitude that makes me think you're a ++REDACTED BY ORDER OF THE INQUISITION++.

This pretentious, holier-than-thou, "You're all sheep supporting an evil company" attitude you all seem to have is quite frankly obnoxious.

Troll harder.

 Orky-Kowboy wrote:


What is missing is the idea that you have ownership of the product you have spent so much friggin money on. Instead, gamers are happy to go along with whatever their games company of choice churns out. Unbalancing small-scale games by allowing Titans? Cool! Releasing so many codexes, supplements, dataslates, etcetera that no one can keep up with the rules anymore? *shrugs* That's fine!

I think if you'd actually been playing attention this past month, you'd find that many 40k players DO NOT like many of the things you're talking about. There has been quite a bit of backlash recently.

I don't feel gamers are sheep at all.