Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, while perusing the WH Petition site for another Dakka member (for the Bieber thread), I came across this petition that I find fairly appalling, for the impact that it would have:

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-using-my-tax-money-subsidize-meat-and-dairy-industries/JhQcCCbF


Long and short of it, for those who don't want to read it... this person believes that tax payer money should not subsidize the meat and dairy industries, that animal food productions is "a leading cause of climate change"



From my perspective, and what little I know of economics, if the Govt stopped "helping" the food production industry, then a gallon of milk could/would cost something closer to like $10, and I'm sure that your meat selection's prices would reflect similarly.


From your point of view, is this person honestly on to something good, or is this person just on something?

Well, corn shouldn't be subsidized as much as it is, that's for sure. A lot of the money going into corn could probably do well to promote healthier foods.

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

Milk would be cheaper. Its artificially kept high by the government now.

The Dairy and Agircultural Lobby makes the NRA look like amateurs.

BIG FOOD!

 Fafnir wrote:
Well, corn shouldn't be subsidized as much as it is, that's for sure. A lot of the money going into corn could probably do well to promote healthier foods.

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

But if there's no milk; then there's no tea.

That, quite frankly, is unacceptable.

There will be a sharp increase in cheddar prices!

And I want my tasty murder meat as cheap as possible!

Tibbsy wrote:


But if there's no milk; then there's no tea.

That, quite frankly, is unacceptable.

Millions drink tea without any dairy in it.

Probably billions. I'd even venture to say more people drink it without than with as I believe it's not a common practice in Eastern countries like China and Japan.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Tibbsy wrote:


But if there's no milk; then there's no tea.

That, quite frankly, is unacceptable.

Millions drink tea without any dairy in it.

Probably billions.

But millions more, at least in 'Murica drink it with sugar by the silo... and for some reason we have taxes/tariffs on "imported" sugar that comes from Hawaii

 Platuan4th wrote:

Tibbsy wrote:


But if there's no milk; then there's no tea.

That, quite frankly, is unacceptable.

Millions drink tea without any dairy in it.

Probably billions.

And that is amongst the greatest of heresies!

Like crumpets without butter! Or scones without jam!

 Fafnir wrote:

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

Please stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

educate yourself

 kronk wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

Please stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

educate yourself

I'm with Kronk on this one. My wife had a dairy allegry when she was two and not being able to have the calcium and other nutrients in milk affected her growth to the point where for most of her childhood she was the same size as her sister, who's two years younger. She still takes calcium supplements because of it when she can't get enough milk/dairy.

We may not need milk nutritionally to survive, but it does contribute to healthy teeth and bone structure. Things that are still developing into the early teens. Compare bone and tooth structure between places with and without lots of dairy. There is a massive difference.

And yeah, without the government supports Milk would be much more expensive. Meat isn't directly subsidized much but because of the insane subsidies on Corn the price of meat is higher than it would otherwise be.

Corn subsidies need to stop, at least for Ethanol. Ethanol is the biggest scam since Nigerian princes discovered the internet. These mandates have caused corn prices to skyrocket, which drives up the price of anything which uses corn or is fed corn(IE: damn near everything)

Import levees on sugar are also silly. Its cheaper to squeeze corn out of sugar than to purchase it from outside the country, which is really just sad.

 Grey Templar wrote:
We may not need milk nutritionally to survive, but it does contribute to healthy teeth and bone structure. Things that are still developing into the early teens. Compare bone and tooth structure between places with and without lots of dairy. There is a massive difference.

And yeah, without the government supports Milk would be much more expensive. Meat isn't directly subsidized much but because of the insane subsidies on Corn the price of meat is higher than it would otherwise be.

Corn subsidies need to stop, at least for Ethanol. Ethanol is the biggest scam since Nigerian princes discovered the internet. These mandates have caused corn prices to skyrocket, which drives up the price of anything which uses corn or is fed corn(IE: damn near everything)

Import levees on sugar are also silly. Its cheaper to squeeze corn out of sugar than to purchase it from outside the country, which is really just sad.

I agree on the "non-food corn" subsidies. And I seriously wish they'd lift the levees on Hawaiian sugar (which, honestly, should be considered Made in USA, so not taxed as such anyway), as I think most of us can agree that the Corn Syrup used in almost everything else is horrible for us. Or at least, much worse than natural Cane or Beet sugar would be in the same products.

Soda made with real sugar is much tastier for sure. That alone should make it go away.

Alternatively, I suggest annexing any of the small Caribbean countries. "All your sugar is belong to us!"

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
We may not need milk nutritionally to survive, but it does contribute to healthy teeth and bone structure. Things that are still developing into the early teens. Compare bone and tooth structure between places with and without lots of dairy. There is a massive difference.

And yeah, without the government supports Milk would be much more expensive. Meat isn't directly subsidized much but because of the insane subsidies on Corn the price of meat is higher than it would otherwise be.

Corn subsidies need to stop, at least for Ethanol. Ethanol is the biggest scam since Nigerian princes discovered the internet. These mandates have caused corn prices to skyrocket, which drives up the price of anything which uses corn or is fed corn(IE: damn near everything)

Import levees on sugar are also silly. Its cheaper to squeeze corn out of sugar than to purchase it from outside the country, which is really just sad.

I agree on the "non-food corn" subsidies. And I seriously wish they'd lift the levees on Hawaiian sugar (which, honestly, should be considered Made in USA, so not taxed as such anyway), as I think most of us can agree that the Corn Syrup used in almost everything else is horrible for us. Or at least, much worse than natural Cane or Beet sugar would be in the same products.

For the sugar issue, I remember in the 90's Louisiana was working hard to keep the levees on it and, IIRC, rice high. The state literally can't compete with imported versions otherwise.

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy

The defense of milk in this thread is pathetic. Cheese and tea? Pft. What the hell am I supposed to put in my Coco Puffs? Sprite? Hell no

 LordofHats wrote:

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy

The defense of milk in this thread is pathetic. Cheese and tea? Pft. What the hell am I supposed to put in my Coco Puffs? Sprite? Hell no

Well, I'd suggest Beer for your cocoa puffs, but I may be a bit weird

Also, since heavy cream and half/half are dairy products, how would we ever survive without white russians?


Although, Im sure Kronk would be ok with dairy like Ice Cream going away, because that means more ladies visiting him

 kronk wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

Please stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

educate yourself

If milk for life was good enough for the Mongols, its good enough for me!

 kronk wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

Please stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

educate yourself

Because the International Dairy Foods Association, you know, the guys who represent the people who sell dairy, couldn't possibly be biased about the necessity of the product they're selling in a diet.

You can get pretty much everything you need from milk (and in many forms, in a more healthy manner) from other foods, such as dark leafy vegetables. And without all those fats and additives that are potentially responsible for a myriad of health issues. In many parts of the world (especially Asia), milk isn't a regular part of people's diets, and a large portion of them are lactose intolerant.
Not to mention that its packed with growth hormones (one thing to try if you're having trouble with acne--stop drinking milk, there's a good chance it'll help). Humans are the only animal that actually drink milk past infancy, and the only ones that drink another animal's milk.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

Please stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

educate yourself

I'm with Kronk on this one. My wife had a dairy allegry when she was two and not being able to have the calcium and other nutrients in milk affected her growth to the point where for most of her childhood she was the same size as her sister, who's two years younger. She still takes calcium supplements because of it when she can't get enough milk/dairy.

Of course, milk is passable compared to a lot of the real junk out there. That said, is your Wife's problem from the fact that she was lacking in milk specifically, or that her diet on a whole was unhealthy? In many homes where nutrition isn't valued, milk can end up being the anchor to a diet.

 Fafnir wrote:
And without all those fats and additives.

Fats aren't intrinsically bad.

I have alot of moral issue surronding the food industry, how they treat their employees, how they treat the animals and so forth. I think that any form of organization that accepts govt funds for food should have to follow certain rules for how to treat animals.

 dogma wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
And without all those fats and additives.

Fats aren't intrinsically bad.

Fats on a whole aren't intrinsically bad, some of the ones in milk are good. But some of them are also linked to things like increased rates of diabetes. And you can get the good fats elsewhere.

They drink soy milk in Asia because growing cows is expensive. People that are lactose intolerant still have to find another source of calcium and vitamins. Work arounds. Because you need milk.

We are also missing the biggest thing. If we stopped hving milk, no ice cream, no ice cream means cranky kids, cranky kids equal stressed parents, stress parents equal bad drivers. No milk leads to roadside accidents

 Fafnir wrote:


Not to mention that its packed with growth hormones (one thing to try if you're having trouble with acne--stop drinking milk, there's a good chance it'll help).

Hormones that cannot effect humans at all.

Bovine hormones are completely incompatible with people for starters, so even if you were injected it would not react. Human somatotropin has a totally different chemical makeup from Bovine somatotropin.

Second, you would be ingesting the hormones if anything. Hormones that first had to end up in the milk(which is only a barely detectable amount), then they have to survive pasteurization, the human stomach, and finally get absorbed by your intestinal lining. Newsflash, Hormones are proteins. All of the previous things that it had to go through will absolutely destroy complex proteins like Hormones.

You could drink a glass of rBST and suffer nothing for all the reasons above.

 dogma wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
And without all those fats and additives.

Fats aren't intrinsically bad.

Especially in the form of a nicely marbled ribeye steak.

 Frazzled wrote:

 dogma wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
And without all those fats and additives.

Fats aren't intrinsically bad.

Especially in the form of a nicely marbled ribeye steak.

Also, more of me to love.

Also also, more for me to love.

 Fafnir wrote:

Fats on a whole aren't intrinsically bad, some of the ones in milk are good. But some of them are also linked to things like increased rates of diabetes. And you can get the good fats elsewhere.

Yes, some of the fats in milk are linked to things which actually cause Type 2 Diabetes due to full fat milk being a requirement in many recipes, and staples* of the Western diet.



*Tea, coffee, cereal, etc.

 kronk wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

In the case of milk, we don't actually need it past infancy (where it would be a mother's, not a cow's. Unless you have a really weird family). Keep in mind, we survived for thousands of years before the domestication of the cow and the production of dairy, and that there are still many places around the world where milk is not a regular part of people's diets.

Please stop talking about stuff you know nothing about.

educate yourself

Well, of course the Dairy Association will promote drinking cows milk. I'm sorry, but I'm with Fafnir - people shouldn't be drinking cow's milk. It's intended for calves to grow, and grow fast - that's why there's so many fats and proteins in it. Plus, humans are the only species that drinks milk into adulthood, and regularly drinks milk from another animal.

http://life.nationalpost.com/2014/01/23/drinking-milk-not-essential-for-humans-despite-belief-it-prevents-osteoporosis-nutritionist-says/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/milk-health-benefits_b_3551079.html

I'd also recommend watching Forks of Knifes. It's a great documentary about the health benefits about vegetarian/vegan diets, and how bad diary and meat (especially red meats) can be for you.

 mega_bassist wrote:
. Plus, humans are the only species that drinks milk into adulthood

So what? We also watch porn, write books, and drive cars.

 kronk wrote:
They drink soy milk in Asia because growing cows is expensive. People that are lactose intolerant still have to find another source of calcium and vitamins. Work arounds. Because you need milk.

I think this is kind of approaching it backwards. You need calcium and vitamins, but you don't need milk. There are quite a few other options.