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Hello everyone,

Just a quick bit of background on myself and the purposes of this thread. I've been lurking this forum for a while now, mainly in the WHFB section as, for various reasons, it's the wargame I'm looking to get into next. I've been reading up on the armies, the metagame and the typical tactics employed.

One of the phrases that's leaped out at me a lot is "Chaff". I see a lot of people recommending in Army Lists that "this list could use some chaff", or people in Tactics/General Discussion saying that "you can just chaff deathstars all game" or "chaff makes WHFB tactical". It's worth mentioning that I know what chaff is, but my query is how to actually use it. No-one I've seen has actually explained at all how to use chaff, no-one. I'm starting to think it's all a conspiracy to get people to use random units. Ok, not really, but you get the idea.

Reading up on what people seem to say the role of chaff is, I learnt (or myself came to the conclusion) that chaff is meant to do the following things:

1) 'Harass' enemy units
2) Help you control the movement phase
3) Block charges/protect vulnerable units/redirection
4) Warmachine Hunt

Now let me explain my confusion. I own a copy of the rulebook and, being quite good with stuff like that, I think I know and understand it fairly well. However, based on that, I see no way how any of those four things (with the exception of point 4) can be achieved using, say, a unit of 2 Fell Bats. Let me explain in more detail:

1) "Harass enemy units". Honestly, I see people chucking this phrase around a lot, but what the hell does it mean?! And how can my 50 point unit of chaff harass anything? Rude gestures, perhaps? But seriously, can someone explain to me what 'harassing' - in this context - actually is, and how one goes about it.

2) Again, this phrase is tossed around a lot, with no explanation ever given. I understand the concept of "drops" and how it helps you control movement, but no where can I see how chaff would help you control the movement phase. Or what controlling the movement phase actually is, for that matter.

3) Ok, for this one, I'm sure I must be missing something big. People say that chaff can be used to block charges, and to redirect potential attackers away from certain units. Now I understand that chaff, thanks to the small size and the speed, can quite easily get in the way (i.e. move between an attacker and the unit you want to protect) but reading the rules, I see no way that this protects the unit in question. Yes, it means the attacking unit can't charge the unit you're protecting, but that unit can simply charge your chaff and they'll easily wipe out the chaff in one round of combat, and then just overrun into the unit you were trying to protect, right? And if I elect to flee, they can simply redirect the charge. I have a feeling I'm missing something important here.

4) As I said, I get this one.

So, to conclude (sorry for the long essay-post which necessitates a conclusion, by the way), I don't mean to be rude or to slate the WHFB skills of this community, but I really can't see how this whole "chaff" aspect works and, as of yet, I've seen nothing that explains it on this forum. I'd greatly appreciate any help anyone can give.

Thank you for your time!

- Triple Z

1) Harass the enemy is usually in reference to shooting chaff, like skinks or shades. They are quick enough to get around to the flanks of the unit, and then just keep circling out of arc and peppering it with shooting. The shooting doesn't do a lot in any given phase, but if ignored, can add up. Furthermore, it's a bit of a pain to catch the chaff.
2) You aren't controlling the movement phase as much as you're controlling deployment. If you have 12 units to deploy and I have 6 chaff units, then by virtue of alternating deployment half your army is on the table before I put down anything of value. Table Control is another aspect. You can't scout or vanguard within 12" of an enemy unit. If I deploy in a refused flank, I will put 1 or 2 chaff units on the refused flank just to prevent scouts from deploying close.
Controlling the movement phase can be done with enough chaff; it's where you have so much chaff, you can shut down your opponents ability to advance in a meaningful way. Vampire Counts (various chaff), Ogre Kingdoms (gnoblar spam) and Skaven (slave/rats spam) can do this.
3) The idea behind charge blocking is pretty simple. I march the chaff close enough to the enemy so that the enemy cannot wheel past me. I wheel my own unit so that if the enemy should charge, the path of his overrun is not into my unit I'm trying to protect. A smart opponent will clear the chaff, restrain the pursuit and reform to face his intended target. This in effect only bought you 1 round. If he doesn't/can't restrain pursuit, then the unit spends it's next turn reforming/moving to try and get back into the fight, which in effect ties it up for 2 game turns.

Let me see if I can help you out here. Gonna go point by point like you did.

1. This is very much dependent on the chaff unit in question, and the nature of harassment. For example, I play Dark Elves and I can use Dark Riders as marvelous harassment by moving quickly and hanging out at the enemy flanks and rear, plinking away with repeaters. It is not a matter of doing significant damage, but it is a matter of both potentially interfering with marches (forcing Ld tests to march) and getting into your opponent's head. If he turns or deploys units to deal with your chaff, that is great, as it means their resources and attention are going to something unimportant, giving you the openings to move in and attack with your fighting units.

2. March blocking, as well as obstructing the path of an enemy. Which I will explain in #3.

3. Angles. You are correct that if your chaff stands and fights a fighting unit, they will get crushed and overrun, but you are not considering the angles of units in this. For instance, I can angle a unit of Dark Riders so that the unit they are in front of has to wheel out of position to charge them.

It is easier to explain with a picture:



In this picture, the red unit has two options. They can charge the chaff unit in front, but doing so will force them to turn to fully hit them in the front, which in turn exposes their flank. If they do not want to charge, they have to waste a lot of movement trying to wiggle out of the way. Also, the charge to the lower unit is impossible, as the red unit cannot wheel free of the chaff, and thus its charge is blocked.

Does that help?

Nice pic.
Not only does that example show the charge block, by the Red Fist has another problem. If it charges the chaff to get free, and it fails to restrain/ the pursuit will put it's flank to the enemy, which isn't good.

Red can try and wiggle around the chaff, charge it and hope not to get flanked, or sit tight and hope that magic or shooting will take out the chaff. It's left the opponent with bad choices with questionable outcomes.

-Matt

Don't give me too much credit for the pic, google images ftw.

What would be better chaff, skirmishers or rank and file troopers?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What would be better chaff, skirmishers or rank and file troopers?

Generally speaking, skirmishers due to the greater flexibilities they have with moving and shooting on the march. But something like warhounds are rank and file, but still make good chaff thanks to their low, low cost.

There are 4 important BRB concepts you have to understand for the effective use of chaff.

• Units cannot move within an inch of another unit unless charging.
• A unit must conform to a unit it charges.
• A unit must declare a flee reaction to a charge when already fleeing.
• A unit may only redirect a charge once.

There is also one other tactical concept, it is better to engage in combat on your turn then your opponents. This is simply due to the opportunity to influence that combat through Hexes and Buffs. There is also goes along with it is better to charge then be charge. This is obvious for some armies (Bretts, Ogres) but it is also important since you determine which models are in combat.

Looking over your categories, chaff does them all.

Harassing. The traditional role of light cavalry in the real world was exactly this. Use missile fire to cause casualties, slow down the opposition, and charge targets of opportunity (usually foragers). In warhammer this is no different.
• A poster mentioned forcing march tests. While it might be unlikely, it is still worthwhile. Forcing as many leadership tests on any opponent is a major goal of any game.
• Placing a chaff unit an inch away from an enemy unit on the flank will restrict his movement per the first point. He will have to move past the unit prior to wheeling.
• Your opponent will make a mistake (we all do, no matter how good) and expose a target of opportunity. The flank of a chariot (my cham skinks have taken down three Ironblasters in combat) or leave a charge path to an L2 caster. Having a chaff unit in position to take advantage of one of these mistakes can be critical.
• Charging a fleeing unit. Chaff are often forward and at the edge of battle, they may charge a fleeing unit to either force it to flee further (perhaps off the table or out of IP range) or back towards your lines so the main line units can run them down.


Movement Control. This is really the ability to get the charges off you want while denying them to your opponent and I include redirection in this. Let me use an example as well.



In this picture, the WoC player is in trouble. He has 3 Iron Gut blocks bearing down on him. They are sitting at 13”. The WoC Player is confident he can take any one but not all three or even two. If he declares a charge, he will need a 9, which is about a 25% chance. If he fails, he is in big trouble as it will be relatively easy charges for the Ogres. He only has so much space to back up. Fortunately there is a fast cav unit nearby.




The Fast cav move in the way of the three Ogre blocks. The warriors shift a little over and move up so that the over run from Ogre 2 is a ten, which is a 16% chance. Note that even if he makes the roll, you will fight on your turn, allowing you to bring magic to play. The Other 2 Ogre blocks are unable to contact the warrior block on the over run. Ogre 1 is forced to charge the rear of the fast cav and will be pointed the wrong direction, Ogre 3 is too close to maximize and will not line up an over run to hit the WoC unit. The Woc unit can now counter charge any one of the three units on a 6 (72% chance) if they choose not to overrun, obviously much better if they do over run but fail to hit the WoC unit.

The use of a single 85 point fast cav unit has significantly changed the odds in favor of the slower and smaller force. Think about the force advantage the rest of the WoC army has against the rest of the Ogre army btw.


A bit of a simplistic example but I wanted to show one I have actually used in a tournament. There are many more tactics (double flee, forcing a clip, etc.) which is why I think it is the fun part of the game.

BTW, most players drop there chaff early, but I find it useful to drop one or two late. Better to drop it near where it will do the most good.

Hinge

Quick question guys, units that are ITP (i.e daemons) can they choose to flee as a charge reaction or must they hold?. I am sure I remember reading they cannot flee but thought I'd ask in case I missed something and this seems the perfect thread.

I usually run 3 units of furies as blockers or warmachine hunters, but I usually throw them away too early. Did play with my warriors the other day and the hounds where used later in the game and proved very effective so I do need to improve on the use of chaff.

MarkyMark wrote:
Quick question guys, units that are ITP (i.e daemons) can they choose to flee as a charge reaction or must they hold?. I am sure I remember reading they cannot flee but thought I'd ask in case I missed something and this seems the perfect thread.

I usually run 3 units of furies as blockers or warmachine hunters, but I usually throw them away too early. Did play with my warriors the other day and the hounds where used later in the game and proved very effective so I do need to improve on the use of chaff.

Your answer is on Page 71 of the BrB

I hope this helps!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Warhammer_Fantasy_Tactica_1:_Army_Strategies


chaff doesn't appear in there, but does have lots of those nifty pictures

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
3) The idea behind charge blocking is pretty simple. I march the chaff close enough to the enemy so that the enemy cannot wheel past me. I wheel my own unit so that if the enemy should charge, the path of his overrun is not into my unit I'm trying to protect. A smart opponent will clear the chaff, restrain the pursuit and reform to face his intended target. This in effect only bought you 1 round. If he doesn't/can't restrain pursuit, then the unit spends it's next turn reforming/moving to try and get back into the fight, which in effect ties it up for 2 game turns.

Keep in mind frenzied units for the most part can't choose to restrain pursuit or overrun and must do it (unless the unit is wiped out I'm pretty sure so unstable units may be bad here). Many people may not like skaven but we have a lot of frenzied units and all of them are the heavy melee hitters (except the hellpit abomination and the doomwheel obviously). That's part of what makes shooting and magic so useful against the chaff. Sadly though chaff is usually very low in points so you might be wasting shots. Still helpful not to be blocked.

Oh and flying chaff is really good for blocking the movement of monsters and forcing them to move a certain way. I heard some tournaments might ignore this though but some harpies flew around my abomination and forced it to move off into nowhere when I was fighting dark elves. This is part of the reason I should take more ratling guns or gutter runners to eliminate them.

I played 9 games at Waaaghpaca over this past weekend, and my 3 chaff units of screamers were my MVP's. Block charges, redirect, saved my LOC's feathers twice from his failed charges.

redirected some savage orcs into wildwood in one game, that was pretty funny. tie them up in the woods and LOC broke them next turn.

Yeah, all the above responses have pretty much covered it all.

I think one thing you may not have realised is that when you charge a unit, you must, once you've come into contact with it, wheel so that the units' fronts are parallel to each other. Therefore, it's more about the angle, rather than the actual position, that means you can re-direct.

Some one mentioned that you can only re-direct a charge once, which is another important point to bear in mind. If you have two chaff units near your enemy and your enemy charges the first and you flee, if you've positioned your units correctly, the only possible re-direction is into your second chaff unit. You can then flee with that one and your opponent can't further decide to re-direct his charge. Hence, you're able to pull enemy units out of position.

 The Shadow wrote:
Yeah, all the above responses have pretty much covered it all.

I think one thing you may not have realised is that when you charge a unit, you must, once you've come into contact with it, wheel so that the units' fronts are parallel to each other. Therefore, it's more about the angle, rather than the actual position, that means you can re-direct.

Some one mentioned that you can only re-direct a charge once, which is another important point to bear in mind. If you have two chaff units near your enemy and your enemy charges the first and you flee, if you've positioned your units correctly, the only possible re-direction is into your second chaff unit. You can then flee with that one and your opponent can't further decide to re-direct his charge. Hence, you're able to pull enemy units out of position.

Double Eagle tactics for HE, WE right there.

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I didn't expect so many as so detailed responses, it's really helped so thanks again!

I still have a few questions, mostly regarding fleeing. I'm still not 100% how fleeing can be useful.

curran12 wrote:

So in this image (which is very helpful thank you), what would happen if the blue chaff unit fled? Would there be any benefit to doing so?

Finally, someone mentioned "clipping" somewhere. I've never come across this phrase before, could someone please explain to me what it is and how it relates to chaff units?

Thanks again!

- Triple Z

Whether a chaff unit should flee or not depends on what you are trying to accomplish. In the case above, if you are trying to keep the red unit from charging the main blue unit, then you should not flee. If you think there is a chance they could fail the redirection test, then it may be worthwhile, especially if you are not worried about being charged.

Clipping is when you contact an enemy unit and are not able to maximize for some reason. By rules, you must use your free wheel during the charge to bring as many models in contact as you can. Since you only get one wheel, there are times when you cannot due to intervening terrain or unit or you are just too close. This is very beneficial to high damage output models such as monsters or chariots. They put out the same damage no matter how many models they are in contact with, but if you clip, you minimize the number of attacks back. It is difficult to actually contrive and tends to be more accidental.

I did an article on COTEC a while back on buildings. The first chapter included using a building to contrive a clip and can be found here:

http://s4.zetaboards.com/cotec/topic/9212077/1/#new

Hinge

Awesome, thanks for all the help everyone!

Still not 100% sure on what clipping is though...

As Hinge mentioned, Clipping is when a unit cannot maximize their combat frontage, usually after charging, because of Terrain or another Unit being in the way. Most cases are accidental as it is nye impossible to predict where units will be sliding and closing doors in the chaos that is Warhammer.