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Hello Everyone! Fairly new here and just starting up Chaos Daemons. I have read a few posts where people mention th screamerstar as a beastly thing to contend with. Is that a unit built up of Chaos Daemons screamers? Are there any other models included to make it a deathstar? And what makes it good?

Thanks for your input! Right now I have a demon prince, 6 screamers, a beast of nurgle, a couple handfulls of Berserkers, and 8 seekers.


EDIT: Changed subject to exclude the word "GUIDE" to avoid confusion.

A bunch of Heralds rolling divination to fish for Forewarning to turn a 5++ to a 4++. One carries the Grimoire of True Names to turn the 4++ to a 2++, which is re-rollable due to Daemons of Tzeentch re-rolling failed saves of 1.

Fateweaver ensures Grimoire goes off.

Okay, so I'm not next to my codex and I'm still pretty new to daemons so, the heralds of tzeentch is that just an upgrade you can give to screamers? Or is that another guy that sits down with them? The grimoire is normally a gift you'd have to roll for isn't it?

Heralds are an HQ slot. You can take a certain number per HQ slot - 4 iirc. Grimoire is an Exalted Reward Hellforged Artifact - roll D6 to determine reward, if you don't like your roll yo default to the Artifact (which you will, because you need it).

Cheers! I appreciate the explanation!

THIS, SHOULD , NOT , EXIST.

Have you ever think or faced a 2++ rerollable unit and how ridiculous it is?...

Really Hope that they FaQ the Grimoire to specify " only affect Invul Saves given by the Deamon USR"...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
THIS, SHOULD , NOT , EXIST.

Have you ever think or faced a 2++ rerollable unit and how ridiculous it is?...

Really Hope that they FaQ the Grimoire to specify " only affect Invul Saves given by the Deamon USR"...

In true GW fashion, they fixed it by putting something even more OP in the game -> Str D weapons.

Its strong for sure, but its not unbeatable. Certainly didn't deserve altering with FAQs at tournaments.

The rolling of powers is incredibly random, both in terms of getting what you want and then successfully casting it. Add to this the 1/3rd chance of failing the grimoire as well as fact that the grimoire model has a 4++ save at best.
What you are left with is a potentially very deadly unit, but one which can easily tread on its own tail and mess its own game up. When you consider that a farsight bomb has none of these issues, I think its fair game.

To the OP: As someone who plays daemons, I would recommend that you do not start with the screamer star. Whilst it can be effective, there are so many psychic powers to roll and remember, as well as daemonic gifts, which will often be too much for a player not used to rolling on so many random tables. I'd start With a couple of FMC's to get used to the psychic powers you might use, as well as the core mechanics of daemons. Less models to remember, and not all of your eggs in one basket.

Randomness is rather moot, with four ML3 psykers all fishing. The Grimoire has less than a 1/3 fail chance, because Fateweavers single re-roll is undeniably reserved for its use. The wielding model also has a 2+ LoS and aforementioned 4++ (re-rolling 1's) to get through to put a wound on it, let alone kill it (2W model).

So you need a Str6 Barrage / Precision hit allocated to the model, who must then fail a 2+ and a 4++ (but not on a 1). It can happen, it usually doesn't. But the unit itself can be tarpitted with some skillfull play, as it does put all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

Play daemons and tell me that randomness is moot. Even with Fateweaver, bad rolls still occur.

If it was as questionable as you make it out to be, it wouldn't be ran and complained about as much as it is.

People complain about lots of things, it doesn't mean they are always justified.
People complained about how weak the Daemons codex was when it was released, yet here we are with tournaments making FAQs to weaken them.

Sure screamerstar can be a pain to play against. But how many tournaments do they win?
The answer is not many, and certainly less than Tau and/or Eldar lists. Yet, I don't see waveserpents taking any nerfs.
The randomness, and points cost, provides enough balance.

Many people playing vs the screamer star are simply not adapting to the fact that rolling lots of dice against it does not work. There are lots of other ways to win a game besides simply wiping the enemy off the table.

Go for the troops, hold objectives (and attempt to prevent last minute denies through positioning), take out fateweaver (if they are using the grimoire on the star, then fatey is pretty vulnerable).

The star does around 12 wounds per turn when shooting at a MEQ squad, which adds up to a lot of points. Then again, the star itself is often 600+ points, so should be able to do some damage.

Another thing to consider here is that the problem is not with the screamer start, but with the random psychic powers. If I roll perfect powers in a game, where all my FMCs have iron arm, and greater rewards which give them 4+ FNP, then my army stands a good chance of beating yours. Are daemon princes overpowered? No, but if luck favours you, then the combination of powers you receive can heavily skew the battle in your favour.

U'll see wave serpent's nerf the moment GW seels enough

 koooaei wrote:
U'll see wave serpent's nerf the moment GW seels enough

I don't have enough faith in GW FAQ making skills to believe this, no matter how needed it is.

This isn't really a guide...

Saying the Screamerstar isn't as powerful against the two best armies, when speaking about the third best army, is a statement I personally take with a grain of salt. It's a strategy that the enemy is forced to play around - inherently making it good. So many other armies struggle to work against it and certain forces simply can't do what needs to be done to win against it - low model count lists specifically.

It's a punishing unit that is extremely unforgiving to those unprepared for it. That it is manageable doesn't make it sub-par. Sure, it is when compared to the kings of Tau and Eldar, but so is every other army's any-build.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

So you need a Str6 Barrage / Precision hit allocated to the model, who must then fail a 2+ and a 4++ (but not on a 1). It can happen, it usually doesn't. But the unit itself can be tarpitted with some skillfull play, as it does put all your eggs in one basket so to speak.

Just a clarification, you'd need a Str8 hit to ID the Herald as the Disk is a Jetbike and confers +1T to the Herald.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:
Just a clarification, you'd need a Str8 hit to ID the Herald as the Disk is a Jetbike and confers +1T to the Herald.

My mistake, so it's even harder to do than I thought.

I never said it wasn't powerful. I said it did not deserve a nerf.

Each codex should have some competitive builds available, screamer star happens to be one of these available for daemons.
If it dominated everything, then it would need a change. But it doesn't, so it doesn't.

Are most tournaments won by screamer star? No.

Arbitrary nerfs because people can not adapt are a sad thing.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I never said it wasn't powerful. I said it did not deserve a nerf.

Each codex should have some competitive builds available, screamer star happens to be one of these available for daemons.
If it dominated everything, then it would need a change. But it doesn't, so it doesn't.

Are most tournaments won by screamer star? No.

Arbitrary nerfs because people can not adapt are a sad thing.

I don't usually agree with what Bill says, but I 100% agree with this. Well put, Bill.

Screamerstar is a beatstick, but if you lure it to a corner of the board, with your stuff, it will take so long getting there and then doing its business, that it can't do or go anywhere else by the time it matters.

So what i have done is simply fed the beast but made it go its maximum distance. i lose almost everything in the backfield and thats fine. The reserves, outflankers and Deep Strikers take the objectives and such after wards.

I can't say it always works but sometimes you have to nod your head to the deathstar and just say "look, its coming, cant stop it...plan B". Giving up isn't an option. getting mad is a waste of time.

Screamer star is most assuredly an unintended consequence BUT without it, how many people would be as interested in the Codex? Some die hards but its attraction to most competitive players are combos like this and the Khorne hounds thing etc...

I personally love Nurgle Beasts and hounds.

Ayways, i hope you don't build this but if you do, just expect that anyone whose not an advanced general will no doubt not want to play with you if there is an alternate opponent available. They might not actually avoid you, so much as not prefer you.

Food for thought.

Strength D weapons! Yay. The game is balanced again! No more Starscream!!

Big Blind Bill is the voice of reason here--Screamerstar is annoying (2+ re-rollable saves are all really irritating), but it isn't broken. It is without a doubt a solid Daemon build, but there are many counters out there. Kill Fateweaver and watch them fail the Grimiore 1/3 of the time. Or, kill their troops and tie down a deathstar that doesn't have hit and run. It will take them an average of three full turns to kill a Wraithknight. They also don't want to see a Riptide with a 3++. Essentially, there is much worse out there.

My advice to a new player would be to build a more balanced list. Screamers are a finesse army. As such, they are unforgiving. There are hard counters (Rune Priests, Mindstrike Missiles, SoTW) that exist as well. It is better to learn the game with a TAC list than to start off with a rock.

Yeah screamer star is not all its cracked up to be. I will say I run a toned down one in a lot of my daemons lists (7 screamers, 2 Heralds) and I love it. It's pretty solid protection for the Grimoire even though I'm usually passing that off to the big unit of hounds running up the board on turn 1. there's enough distractions and other killing power in the list to carry on should the screamers and heralds have a bad game

The big threat about screamerstar isn't the screamers, they are a bonus. Each of the heralds also has flickering fire and is ML3. so they can all fire off 3-4D6 shots. Your looking at 12-16D6 per turn. One herald takes the locus that makes the powers +1S. So that is 12-16D6 S6 ap4 shots per round assuming there are no deny the witch attempts. All precision shots, as the heralds are characters.

Tarpit with a walker, and screamers get their S5 ap2 armorbane attack, same happens when you tarpit with TDA. Go the horde route, and screamers use their normal attacks, I think 3 each. All the while you have fatey flying above, raining hell down using as many powers as he sees fit (all tzeentch and 1 of most other trees) ML4 too.

Screamerstar gets boned against very high T models, like wraith knights, or a GUO. It can also have issues against very high armor. AV14 is penned only on a roll of 11 or 12, with the armorbane attacks.

The unit is hard as beans to kill, but not as easy as many think to use. You have to build your entire army around it too. I really suggest just using the same tactics as asto_nomicon and using a small screamer star. Ive done it in a few games, it is tons of fun. Same strat, grimoire on one, locus on the other, both ML3, dual divination 1 Tzeentch for flickering fire.

I ran a single disc/grimoire herald (allied demons with Tsons), 10 Horrors and a unit of 9 screamers.

Even the mini-star was so ridiculous that I stopped using it. Sure, it's not invincible.. but it sure was good.

I can't imagine what it's like to have FW as Warlord and a screamerstar. Too much.

To break it down a bit further if you actually do want to run this.

You will need the following -

x4 Heralds of Tzeentch on a Disc (I use the plastic one, the Finecast one, the Changeling as a counts as regular Herald and the Warriors of Chaos Tzeentch Sorcerer)

x1 Kairos Fateweaver

x9 Screamers

Another good option is Be'lakor (Ally him in with CSM so you don't lose Fateweavers Warlord trait) This is also gives you the option to take a Heldrake.

You will need the following upgrades for your Heralds:
Disc, ML3 Psyker, Exalted Locus of Conjuration.
Disc, ML3 Psyker, Exalted Reward (Grimoir)
Disc, ML3 Psyker
Disc, ML3 Psyker

Roll one power on the Change Disicpline for each of them and the other 2 on Divination. You're trying to get a 2 so you get Forewarning. This gives your squad a 4++ and when stacked with Grimoir this will then allow you to have a 2++ which when combined with Tzeentch Daemons re-rolling failed saving throws of 1 gives you the infamous re-rollable 2++. You now have a Squad with 9 Melee Jetbike monsters hitting things with Lampreys Bite and 4 ML3 Jetbike psykers firing off S6 (+1 due to the Locust) AP4 Assault 3D6 shots each. 36 Total on average. Keep in mind because you rolled for 2 powers on divination for each of them that there's a good chance you got the Ignores Cover power, the "makes target re-roll successful saving throws" power and the re-roll all failed to hit rolls (shooting and close combat).

On top of that you have Be'lakor and Fateweaver casting off every power under the sun at any and everything. Throw in some of the following: Plaguebearers to hold objectives, a Heldrake to cook stuff, 1-2 Soulgrinders to crush most things or some Winged Tzeentch DPs.

Bam! The Screamer Star!

The 800+ point screamerstar is going to overkill whatever it targets (as long as that target isn't a MC, TEQ, AV13+, or a Flyer which lets face it a lot of high priority targets are one of those things). At that point you have to very specifically build a list around it to make up for the many weaknesses that are inherent to it.

A smart opponent won't target the screamers. A smart opponent will eliminate all of its support and troops in the rest of the list. Once this happens its really a matter of generalship that determines who wins and who loses. The screamerstar is by no means an auto-win, and is really not even a top tier death star.

Almost all other top notch death stars can target multiple units, have more versatile shooting (Farsight/Shadowsight bombs, O'vesastar, and the budding Gravstars), have hit and run to avoid being tarpitted (a glaring weakness of the Screamerstar) , feature better CC ability (Seer Councils) and/or are more mobile.

Yes it will make a lot armies cry, but no, it's not unbeatable or broken. Even strong lists from mid tier codexes can outplay a Screamerstar if the general is smart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not so coincidentally, th e Screamerstar is not even a top notch Daemon build.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any win big tourneys lately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:
To break it down a bit further if you actually do want to run this.

You will need the following -

x4 Heralds of Tzeentch on a Disc (I use the plastic one, the Finecast one, the Changeling as a counts as regular Herald and the Warriors of Chaos Tzeentch Sorcerer)

x1 Kairos Fateweaver

x9 Screamers

Another good option is Be'lakor (Ally him in with CSM so you don't lose Fateweavers Warlord trait) This is also gives you the option to take a Heldrake.

You will need the following upgrades for your Heralds:
Disc, ML3 Psyker, Exalted Locus of Conjuration.
Disc, ML3 Psyker, Exalted Reward (Grimoir)
Disc, ML3 Psyker
Disc, ML3 Psyker

Roll one power on the Change Disicpline for each of them and the other 2 on Divination. You're trying to get a 2 so you get Forewarning. This gives your squad a 4++ and when stacked with Grimoir this will then allow you to have a 2++ which when combined with Tzeentch Daemons re-rolling failed saving throws of 1 gives you the infamous re-rollable 2++. You now have a Squad with 9 Melee Jetbike monsters hitting things with Lampreys Bite and 4 ML3 Jetbike psykers firing off S6 (+1 due to the Locust) AP4 Assault 3D6 shots each. 36 Total on average. Keep in mind because you rolled for 2 powers on divination for each of them that there's a good chance you got the Ignores Cover power, the "makes target re-roll successful saving throws" power and the re-roll all failed to hit rolls (shooting and close combat).

On top of that you have Be'lakor and Fateweaver casting off every power under the sun at any and everything. Throw in some of the following: Plaguebearers to hold objectives, a Heldrake to cook stuff, 1-2 Soulgrinders to crush most things or some Winged Tzeentch DPs.

Bam! The Screamer Star!

Screamers a far cry from "melee monsters." They aren't terrible in CC, but that is pretty much the last place you want them to be

The unit itself costs ~700+ points.

I've never had any issue with it: charge a Wraithknight into them and they'll be there for a good majority of the game, allowing you to target the few Troops choices in the Daemon player's army. I don't think it's a particularly balanced build; most armies nowadays have MCs which can tie up the Screamerstar for half of the game so it's really dependent on the army match-up for it to win.

Iranna.

Yep, eldar easilly outcheeze them