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Hmm I seem to have many questions

The deep strike rules says to place the models in base to base contact and in a circle. Now if we look at the conditions to mishap, they are 1)model wholly or partially off the board, 2)in impassible terrain and 3)on top of friendly model 4)within 1 inch of enemy model.

So my question is, if some of the models cannot be n base to base contact, for example if they landed beside a stepped hill terrain, does it count as a mishap?

Technically, yes, that would be a problem.

In actual practice, so long as the hill isn't impassable terrain, you would generally just place the model as close as possible on the step and call it close enough.

I can't imagine anyone trying to claim you mishapped just because the models landed on a hill..

Actually, they are in base to base contact with each other in this situation:
To my knowledge nothing in the Rules says those bases have to be parallel with the table as that would, after all, mean taking the third dimension into account and we all know the writers think in two dimensions at best.

This leads to the idea that you can simply lay the models on the diagonal:
As long as the slope is not a solid vertical wall that is taller then the base it is entirely possible to place them in a location where they would be touching each other and not vertically on-top of each other at the same time. Some would just have to be sitting on their edges, with one edge on the higher level and one on the lower, which leads to some interesting balancing acts. That would be enough to fill the requirements of the Deep Strike rule and not trigger the requirements of the Mishap Rule, as looking down from the vertical shows no overlapping bases. Should the steps be higher then the base of the model in question, it is time to really start pondering if it is reasonable for a fully equipped model to be able to scamper up each step but the trick is still possible with just a few additional balancing acts.

Then there is the whole levitation angle that could be pulled out as well, this is a humorous one:
To my knowledge, this rule does not take the third dimension into consideration so we do not have permission to do so either from a Rule as Written perspective. In this case it means we must place the models so they are in base to base contact. The fact a model would be forced to float in mid-air is irrelevant, levitation does not trigger the Mishap Special Rule and permission not only has been given for them to physically occupy that spot but demanded that they do so. Should an opponent then complain, it is up to them to find a Rule which states that the model can not physically occupy a location, even when a Special/Advanced Rule allows it, that X occurs.

In short:
Just put them in the safe parts of the hill, even completely to the side if needed, and claim Wobbly Model Syndrome as to why your not physically leaving the models on 'tip-toes' or 'levitating'
... Where they could easily slip and fall....

If you decided that the Hill was a difficult terrain, the only thing happening is that the models that are on the hill, take a dangerous terrain test.

The only occurences where you must roll on the mishap is ; Impassable terrain, on other models and out the board.

The rules support that you can place them there as once you attempt to place in base to base...and fail...wobbly model should protect them from mishap.

I had something kinda similar a few games ago. My bloodletter DSed just next to a building (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zvbA520aJh8/TKql97oiXZI/AAAAAAAAAFk/rrJuBimY6YE/s1600/Imperial+Ruins+01.jpg) the center model landed just outside the structure but when placing the rest of the squad some would have to fall inside the building and some outside, the building windows have always been treat as passable however obviously you can't place any model in the window frame. So if placing them next to the center model at least one model would have to end in between the window frame which might be consider as impassable... we had to throw a die and count it as impassable and lost my bloodletters on the warp.

On the same topic here is a second question regarding such buildings, if there are levels and the center model deepstrikes on the ground level do the rest of the squad gets on the ground level allowing some models to have a "roof" or do some of them land on the tallest lvl therefore misshaping as well?

Ruin, not building, and this is a very important distinction as the Rules are different for either of them.

Technically, Models have permission to move through solid walls of a Ruin by default. Unless the Ruins are considered impassable terrain before the game begun, as required by the 'discuss changes to the rules with your opponent,' there is no grounds to evoke the Deep Strike Mishap clause to try and remove the unit as a casualty that way. There would have to be a Rule, that I could be overlooking, in the Ruin section of the book which literally states a unit Deep Striking into a wall causes a Mishap. On that note, check the Ruin and Deep Strike sections of the rule book as I do remember some instructions informing us what happens when a unit deep strikes into a multiple-floored Ruin.

I'm glad that this is the general opinion about it. Now I have slightly less hesitation about deep striking. But deep strike is still quite a hazardous gambit. The odds of landing without scatter is still pretty low.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I can't imagine anyone trying to claim you mishapped just because the models landed on a hill..

When I was running my Deep Strike heavy lists, this usually came up at least once in competitive events. If I had a squad that landed on a hillside, and an opponent asked me if that meant they mishapped, I would just say 'no,' and move on. No one has ever taken it any further than that.

I DS into ruins all the time, best way to not get shot to hell. We also play it that if you end up through a wall the you are just placed as close as possible to the unit circle.

Worming in a quick question since it's relevant to the topic:

Monoliths are forced to DS if held in reserve. As skimmers, they can't end their movement on top of friendly or enemy models, and the rules say that they should be moved the minimum distance so that no model is -underneath- them. But if a monolith lands on top of an enemy unit, does it still mishap because you move him within 1" of that enemy unit (minimum distance to not have a model underneath it) ?

That is debatable, and no doubt will be in the following posts, however I can't think of a situation that would force a skimmer to end its move over an enemy model other than deep strike so I'd play it as you move it off.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think deep striking is considered movement.

If I am recalling correctly the model is considered to have moved if they Deep Strike in, but from a Rule Laywering point of view Deep Strike is still deployment and that is not movement in and of itself. Not that it matters from a Rule point of view in the long run, Deep Striking is enough to triggers any other rules that can/must be evoked on models that have moved. That could be used for all sorts of manipulations but in the majority of cases, this one included, there is no real point outside of academical study. No moving or moving till the base is not covering any enemy models is still enough to put the Deep Striker in the 'Mishap' distance of the Deep Strike rule.

Well, a model that Vector Strike counts as having fired one weapon, that doesn't mean that they actually fired a weapon though. I would treat Deep Striking the same way.

I don't think it matters whether "counts as having moved" = moved, all that is required is for the skimmer to be "forced to end its move."

You don't have to actualy move to end your move.

When you deep strike your move is ended, when you scatter you are forced to a particular position.

That seems to satisfy the requirements.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I don't think it matters whether "counts as having moved" = moved, all that is required is for the skimmer to be "forced to end its move."

You don't have to actualy move to end your move.

When you deep strike your move is ended, when you scatter you are forced to a particular position.

That seems to satisfy the requirements.

Even if this is correct the skimmer would still mishap.

The models that are Deep Striking need to be 1 inch away from an enemy after Deep Strike scatter to be safe from mishap.

 Jimsolo wrote:

When I was running my Deep Strike heavy lists, this usually came up at least once in competitive events. If I had a squad that landed on a hillside, and an opponent asked me if that meant they mishapped, I would just say 'no,' and move on. No one has ever taken it any further than that.

That may not be due to the base contact issue under discussion here, but simply because there is a common misconception that landing in any terrain causes a mishap.

A model doesn't mishap for being within 1" of an enemy model it only mishaps if it can't be deployed without doing so. The skimmer has a special rule that allows you to move so that it isn't within an inch so it doesn't fail to be deployed.

Not true, again.

You don't count as having moved until after you arrive. You cannot arrive until you have checked for mishap. You mishap before moving and so the skimmer rule does not come into play

Oh? Where is that stated ?

The only rule I can see is during the movement phase in which they arrive, they can move no further. That says nothing about the point in time that a unit is said to arrive.

Am I missing something? the Monolith has no such rule as being discussed.

If it is in reserve it must deepstrike, then there is no special rule regarding mishaps(that was the old codex).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Am I missing something? the Monolith has no such rule as being discussed.

If it is in reserve it must deepstrike, then there is no special rule regarding mishaps(that was the old codex).

The rule under discussion is one all Skimmers have.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
Oh? Where is that stated ?
The only rule I can see is during the movement phase in which they arrive, they can move no further. That says nothing about the point in time that a unit is said to arrive.

Which exactly is the point. No rule states that DS placing/deploying process is movement, therefore it is not.

But there is far simpler way to show that DS (including scatter) isn't movement:
If DS was movement, Mishaps would not normally happen: no model is allowed to move to either impassable terrain or within 1" of enemy models without specific exception and because DS does not grant one, all models would have automatic Mishap protection.
And as it pretty obvious that Mishaps should happen, DS (including scatter) is not movement

The Skimmer 1" rule is meant for certain rare Skimmer Tank Shock scenarios.

Disclaimer: DS in this case refers to the placing/deploying process of the DS rules. Obviously after the unit has arrived, it counts as having moved.

No that is flawed logic.

Skimmers have a special exception that allows them to end their move over impassable terrain and enemy units.
That's why other units mishap and they don't. Their move has ended and they are over impassable terrain or another model. Skimmers can move off, other units can't. As per the rules for skimmers.

Tank shock rules require no special provisions for skimmers.

Show their move rule specifically alters the ds rule. Page and para.

Uptopdownunder,
I would advise to re-read the skimmer rules, though the way you are describing them I have a feeling you are talking about Flyers and not Skimmers and even then the base still can't be within X of the enemy at the end of the movement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Show their move rule specifically alters the ds rule. Page and para.

From the digital so page numbers are useless, I'm sure you'll find it.

"The base of a Skimmer is effectively ignored, except for when: (nothing to do with deep strike)" so a skimmer's base is not sufficient to prevent the unit being deployed because it is ignored.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
Uptopdownunder,
I would advise to re-read the skimmer rules, though the way you are describing them I have a feeling you are talking about Flyers and not Skimmers and even then the base still can't be within X of the enemy at the end of the movement.

I'm a bit over being told to re-read rules by those who obviously haven't read them themselves

Uptopdownunder wrote:
A model doesn't mishap for being within 1" of an enemy model

It does mishap for being within 1" of an enemy model when Deep Striking. (Page 36 has more info).

it only mishaps if it can't be deployed without doing so.

Not 100% true, see above.

The skimmer has a special rule that allows you to move so that it isn't within an inch so it doesn't fail to be deployed.

Citation needed because that is not what I am seeing on page 83.