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Is the Demolisher cannon worth it now that its actually cheaper then the BC?

I still wouldn't take it, the 24" range and only D3 shots hurts quite a bit.

Eldar rangers are going from -2 to hit 3+ armor save to -1 to hit 2+ armor save. That's mathematically identical for flashlights and mortars so it's not really much of a change for us.

Emperor's wrath relic denying them cover knocks that down to -1 to hit 4+ armor. Those pointy eared bastards are going to have a bad time.

Ugh. Another round of cool formations/stratagems where GW pretends that half our units don't exist. Is it really that difficult to add Medusas/Minotaurs/etc to the artillery list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:
I still wouldn't take it, the 24" range and only D3 shots hurts quite a bit.

This is bad math. D3 shots is only against vehicles and such, where having D6 damage offsets D3 shots. Against single-wound models where the damage increase doesn't matter you're almost always getting D6 shots. The demolisher cannon is always better than a battle cannon when it gets to fire, the only drawback is 24" range.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Eldar rangers are going from -2 to hit 3+ armor save to -1 to hit 2+ armor save. That's mathematically identical for flashlights and mortars so it's not really much of a change for us.

Emperor's wrath relic denying them cover knocks that down to -1 to hit 4+ armor. Those pointy eared bastards are going to have a bad time.

Makes plasma cannons better at them though An Executioner Tank Commander with Plasma sponsons and a lascannon is gonna cost what now, like 200 points I think? It will straight up murder things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Ugh. Another round of cool formations/stratagems where GW pretends that half our units don't exist. Is it really that difficult to add Medusas/Minotaurs/etc to the artillery list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Horst wrote:
I still wouldn't take it, the 24" range and only D3 shots hurts quite a bit.

This is bad math. D3 shots is only against vehicles and such, where having D6 damage offsets D3 shots. Against single-wound models where the damage increase doesn't matter you're almost always getting D6 shots. The demolisher cannon is always better than a battle cannon when it gets to fire, the only drawback is 24" range.

Hmm... good point. The 24" range though is a pretty big drawback still though.

24" isn't so bad if you are trying to close with the enemy. Tallarn demolishers with las/plas are looking nice at 182 pts, 184 with stubber. 204 commander. I'm excited to try out a real tank hammer list.

I just went through all of the changes, my god I can already taste the salt.

Sentinels and armored and scout are both down to 30 points. Plasma and AC is 10. Heavy flamer 14.

Cadian armored with plasma isn't bad. 120 points for the FA to fill out a formation all rerolling 1s on plasma shots.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Cyclops absolutely wreck smash captains and custodes captains. Flying characters have been nerfed. Cyclops is also great for pulling units out of close combat. It's awesome when someone is clever enough to trap a hellhound in cc only to take a cyclops to the face and then we blow up our own hellhound.

I am actually tempted to pick some up. With me possibly moving my russes into an Emperor's fist spearhead, I need something to go in the brigade. Cyclops are cheap, and the only thing cheaper are HWSs. Nine mortars may be good but cyclops could be nice too.

9 mortars is only 99 points and necessary against orks. They usually get CP greedy and go with MSU grots to protect their lootas. 5*10 seems like a lot but just split fire shoot each squad with 1 mortar. Wounds them on a 2+ and after 5 squads take a casualty the runt herder will eat 5d3 grots per turn. You should still have a few mortars left to shoot orks with. By turn 3 the grots should be dead and the lootas can be shot.

I run a Catachan spearhead with nothing but a lord commissar and 3 cyclops and the rest of the army is Cadian. When it detonates it makes a separate shooting attack against every unit so the reroll can be used on each one.

Couple issues with that. 1 mortar shoots 3.5 . Kills 1 grot in average. That's 50-50 does unit fail morale or not. So 5d3 is pipe dream without investing more. Even 2 mortar per unit is only 66% morale fail.

Also in competive 40k if you plan on turn 3 to be decisive you are 1-2 turns too late

tneva82 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Cyclops absolutely wreck smash captains and custodes captains. Flying characters have been nerfed. Cyclops is also great for pulling units out of close combat. It's awesome when someone is clever enough to trap a hellhound in cc only to take a cyclops to the face and then we blow up our own hellhound.

I am actually tempted to pick some up. With me possibly moving my russes into an Emperor's fist spearhead, I need something to go in the brigade. Cyclops are cheap, and the only thing cheaper are HWSs. Nine mortars may be good but cyclops could be nice too.

9 mortars is only 99 points and necessary against orks. They usually get CP greedy and go with MSU grots to protect their lootas. 5*10 seems like a lot but just split fire shoot each squad with 1 mortar. Wounds them on a 2+ and after 5 squads take a casualty the runt herder will eat 5d3 grots per turn. You should still have a few mortars left to shoot orks with. By turn 3 the grots should be dead and the lootas can be shot.

I run a Catachan spearhead with nothing but a lord commissar and 3 cyclops and the rest of the army is Cadian. When it detonates it makes a separate shooting attack against every unit so the reroll can be used on each one.

Couple issues with that. 1 mortar shoots 3.5 . Kills 1 grot in average. That's 50-50 does unit fail morale or not. So 5d3 is pipe dream without investing more. Even 2 mortar per unit is only 66% morale fail.

Also in competive 40k if you plan on turn 3 to be decisive you are 1-2 turns too late

3.5*.75 cadian orders*.87=2.28 which goes down to 1.5 if they are in cover
Leadership 4 or auto d3 from runt herders. At 2 casualties they average 1.5 from a morale test and shouldn't use the harder but they still usually do. At 3 casualties it's average of 2.5.

Really glad about the changes as someone playing thematic Cadian lists with some bite:

- Armored Sentinel with plasma Cannons at 40 points are great and finally worth their points
- 3 point Grenade Launchers are actually worth taking now, and 6 point flamers are welcome as well. Now I don't feel like I'm hangstringing by taking them over plasma on my infantry squads
- I like running a cheap Command squad with a Banner and Lascannon team (with 2 vets as fodder), so paying less for them is welcome
- Cheaper tank commanders are always welcome
- I like playing my collection of Kasrkin as Tempestus Scions, so them getting free hot-shots lasguns and HS-pistols going down to 0 points (the latter being very welcome on my two vox-caster Kasrkin who save 2 points each) as well as 14 point melta guns benefits them big time (I got some well painted melta troopers so I dislike just running plasma all the time)

And finally Creed going down to 55 points is massive. I always liked running him anyway, but at that price he is pretty much an autoinclude if you play Cadia.

I'm looking at the new scion formation. How about this:

Tempestor prime: command rod, laurels, new warlord trait, probably as field commander. 45

Scion squad x5: plasma pistol, 2xplasmagun 72
Scion squad x5: plasma pistol, 2xplasmagun 72

Valkyrie: Multilaser, rocket pods, bolters? 137

So a little patrol detachment. Costs 2-3 cp, depending on your other relics. Total cost of 326. Can move up to 45" and pop the stratagem to grav-cute with no risk. Then move within 9" to get extra shots. +1 to hit, so you get doctrine shots on a 5. Seems like a nice little package. Probably some ways to improve it, but i just wanted a minimum cost. I guess you could go up to a battalion easily enough with an extra squad and tempestor, but I wanted to have 1 valks worth for the stratagem.

 Trickstick wrote:

Glorious leaks. Edit: better collection.

Link isn't working?

TankCmdr wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Glorious leaks. Edit: better collection.

Link isn't working?

Yeah original got nuked. They are everywhere now though, so easy to find.

 Trickstick wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Glorious leaks. Edit: better collection.

Link isn't working?

Yeah original got nuked. They are everywhere now though, so easy to find.

Thanks, did a little hunting, found them.

So, if my math is correct/up to date, artemia hellhounds are now the exact same price as regular ones?

Hmm, that's gonna require some adjustments. Good thing sentinels are so cheap now

TankCmdr wrote:
So, if my math is correct/up to date, artemia hellhounds are now the exact same price as regular ones?

Hmm, that's gonna require some adjustments. Good thing sentinels are so cheap now

Yeah, as they should have been. They forgot that the artemia cannon was free last year. Hellhounds are still great, although cheap sentinels are definitely competing for fast attack slots. Banewolves dropped a few points if the expense is a problem.

 Trickstick wrote:

TankCmdr wrote:
So, if my math is correct/up to date, artemia hellhounds are now the exact same price as regular ones?

Hmm, that's gonna require some adjustments. Good thing sentinels are so cheap now

Yeah, as they should have been. They forgot that the artemia cannon was free last year. Hellhounds are still great, although cheap sentinels are definitely competing for fast attack slots. Banewolves dropped a few points if the expense is a problem.

Yeah it's a fair change. They're still one of my favorite units, so I'll try to cut back elsewhere first. Had them Kamikaze too many big baddies to leave them out entirely.

Anyone think that the pts drop on non-shadowsword variants makes them worth taking now? Part of me wants to bring back the stormsword/demolisher tag team to really ramp up my armoured assault force.

Artema pattern getting nerfed to standard price makes other variants more viable. Catachans for example will probably all shift to standard to maximize the effects of their reroll.

The big reason we will see hell hounds drop off is sentinels being used to fill out a brigade. With as dirt cheap as they are double brigade 27 CP may now be a legitimate option.

 schadenfreude wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Cyclops absolutely wreck smash captains and custodes captains. Flying characters have been nerfed. Cyclops is also great for pulling units out of close combat. It's awesome when someone is clever enough to trap a hellhound in cc only to take a cyclops to the face and then we blow up our own hellhound.

I am actually tempted to pick some up. With me possibly moving my russes into an Emperor's fist spearhead, I need something to go in the brigade. Cyclops are cheap, and the only thing cheaper are HWSs. Nine mortars may be good but cyclops could be nice too.

9 mortars is only 99 points and necessary against orks. They usually get CP greedy and go with MSU grots to protect their lootas. 5*10 seems like a lot but just split fire shoot each squad with 1 mortar. Wounds them on a 2+ and after 5 squads take a casualty the runt herder will eat 5d3 grots per turn. You should still have a few mortars left to shoot orks with. By turn 3 the grots should be dead and the lootas can be shot.

I run a Catachan spearhead with nothing but a lord commissar and 3 cyclops and the rest of the army is Cadian. When it detonates it makes a separate shooting attack against every unit so the reroll can be used on each one.

Couple issues with that. 1 mortar shoots 3.5 . Kills 1 grot in average. That's 50-50 does unit fail morale or not. So 5d3 is pipe dream without investing more. Even 2 mortar per unit is only 66% morale fail.

Also in competive 40k if you plan on turn 3 to be decisive you are 1-2 turns too late

3.5*.75 cadian orders*.87=2.28 which goes down to 1.5 if they are in cover
Leadership 4 or auto d3 from runt herders. At 2 casualties they average 1.5 from a morale test and shouldn't use the harder but they still usually do. At 3 casualties it's average of 2.5.

Even with cadiae order to wound is 83 not 87 and they get save even without cover so under 2 per average. Even with 2 casualties they only fail ld 2/3 times so idea of failing it 5 times out of 5 reliably is pipe dream by those who don't know odds.

You do not roll 3+ everytime. Period. And the runtherd btw here reduces morale casualties in the long run. Remember runtherd kills only if morale fails. Orks don't have to choose in advance to kill d3 to ensure failed morale. It goes like this(assuming 2 casualties which isn#t likely for 5 mortar rounds)

1:nothikg
2:nothing
3:d3 dead
4: d3 dead
5: d3 dead
6: d3 dead

So out of 6 4d3 so you average 8/6 more grots from morale. Thus from 5 mortars 6.666. Except you will be looking at one squad with 1 dead grot rather than 2(and 0 isn't that unlikely) and runtherd means extra casualties don't matter as much to morale as less)

And still issue that if you wait for t3 then lootas have already spent all cp and done their job.

tneva82 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Cyclops absolutely wreck smash captains and custodes captains. Flying characters have been nerfed. Cyclops is also great for pulling units out of close combat. It's awesome when someone is clever enough to trap a hellhound in cc only to take a cyclops to the face and then we blow up our own hellhound.

I am actually tempted to pick some up. With me possibly moving my russes into an Emperor's fist spearhead, I need something to go in the brigade. Cyclops are cheap, and the only thing cheaper are HWSs. Nine mortars may be good but cyclops could be nice too.

9 mortars is only 99 points and necessary against orks. They usually get CP greedy and go with MSU grots to protect their lootas. 5*10 seems like a lot but just split fire shoot each squad with 1 mortar. Wounds them on a 2+ and after 5 squads take a casualty the runt herder will eat 5d3 grots per turn. You should still have a few mortars left to shoot orks with. By turn 3 the grots should be dead and the lootas can be shot.

I run a Catachan spearhead with nothing but a lord commissar and 3 cyclops and the rest of the army is Cadian. When it detonates it makes a separate shooting attack against every unit so the reroll can be used on each one.

Couple issues with that. 1 mortar shoots 3.5 . Kills 1 grot in average. That's 50-50 does unit fail morale or not. So 5d3 is pipe dream without investing more. Even 2 mortar per unit is only 66% morale fail.

Also in competive 40k if you plan on turn 3 to be decisive you are 1-2 turns too late

3.5*.75 cadian orders*.87=2.28 which goes down to 1.5 if they are in cover
Leadership 4 or auto d3 from runt herders. At 2 casualties they average 1.5 from a morale test and shouldn't use the harder but they still usually do. At 3 casualties it's average of 2.5.

Even with cadiae order to wound is 83 not 87 and they get save even without cover so under 2 per average. Even with 2 casualties they only fail ld 2/3 times so idea of failing it 5 times out of 5 reliably is pipe dream by those who don't know odds.

You do not roll 3+ everytime. Period. And the runtherd btw here reduces morale casualties in the long run. Remember runtherd kills only if morale fails. Orks don't have to choose in advance to kill d3 to ensure failed morale. It goes like this(assuming 2 casualties which isn#t likely for 5 mortar rounds)

1:nothikg
2:nothing
3:d3 dead
4: d3 dead
5: d3 dead
6: d3 dead

So out of 6 4d3 so you average 8/6 more grots from morale. Thus from 5 mortars 6.666. Except you will be looking at one squad with 1 dead grot rather than 2(and 0 isn't that unlikely) and runtherd means extra casualties don't matter as much to morale as less)

And still issue that if you wait for t3 then lootas have already spent all cp and done their job.

Looks like the runt herder is better than I thought which throws things off.

I think we need some thought towards the long game against orks. To actually kill 40+ grots and the lootas before T3 isn't really feasible when all flashlights are being focused on the boys that are in short range. If anything this has me doubting if I should bother working the grots over a bit before dealing with the boys.

Outside of the Scions formation (I have no air wing), did much change with the Tempestus point list? I know special weapons dropped, but not whether unit costs went up or down.

Hotshot weapons are free, so Scions in general are cheaper.

After seeing the text of the formations in some of the youtube reviews, a couple of things jumped out at me:

- Emperor's conclave is not for me. It's a melee focused formation with lots of fight and charge phase stuff.

- The tank stratagem lets you double shot a tank turret no matter how far you moved. Seems like a really good thing to combine with tallarn ambush, as that was a weakness of outflanking russes.

- Second tank stratagem let's you pick a unit and get d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ for every keyword russ that charges it. I'm thinking my demolisher squad may be having some fun.

- The mechanised formation seems like a great idea if you mech. One stratagem lets you get out after moving, although you can't then move. Trait lets you give orders out of chimera, as if you have a vox. I can see vox armed mech being quite useful.

Do any of the formations benefit infantry?

 vipoid wrote:
Do any of the formations benefit infantry?

Conclave gives loads of melee stuff. Like reroll 1s to hit in melee, 2 dice pick lowest morale, +1 charge rolls when near priest, and slain models fight again. Not really my thing but a catachan melee force could be fun.

I run a Catachan brigade as the backbone to my army. Usually, their melee is a bonus, not a game winner in itself. Gonna try the conclave though, if nothing else it sounds fun.

The artillery Det is what I'm really psyched about though, as my tanks are cadian. Aerial spotter, overlapping fire, and pounding barrage for my basilisks? Holy cow

 Trickstick wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Do any of the formations benefit infantry?

Conclave gives loads of melee stuff. Like reroll 1s to hit in melee, 2 dice pick lowest morale, +1 charge rolls when near priest, and slain models fight again. Not really my thing but a catachan melee force could be fun.

Interesting. I don't normally play Catachan but I might give them a go with these rules.

Pounding barrage seems situational to me. It's 2cp for a basilisk shot. I would mainly use it when an extra basilisk shot is really going to help, like a unit with a couple of wounds left that needs to be dead.

 Trickstick wrote:
Pounding barrage seems situational to me. It's 2cp for a basilisk shot. I would mainly use it when an extra basilisk shot is really going to help, like a unit with a couple of wounds left that needs to be dead.

It stacks with aerial spotters which will be really good at doing the 1st wound to a knight so that we can trigger overlapping fields of fire.