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The Ludoldus-pattern Land Raider, named after the legendary High Marshal Ludoldus of the Black Templars Chapter, is a descendant of the Land Raider Crusader developed by the Black Templars Chapter. Designed to penetrate the heaviest of defenses where even other Land Raiders falter, the Ludoldus-pattern sacrifices firepower for durability.

Land Raider Ludoldus

Cost: 160 points

F/S/R 14 HP: 4

Transport Capacity: 20

Weaponry: None

Special Rules: Blessed Hull, Assault Vehicle

Access Points: 1 on each side and 1 in the frontal ramp

The Land Raider Ludoldus may only be taken by a detachment from Codex: Space Marines using the Black Templars Chapter Tactics. It is a dedicated transport choice for Crusader Squads, but may also be taken in a Heavy Support slot.

Blessed Hull: A vehicle with this special rule ignores the Melta and Lance special rules. A weapon with any (or both!) of these special rules may thus not use any of them when shooting or attacking a Land Raider Ludoldus.

Points calculations: A base Land Radier is 250 points. From the Predator entry we know that a Lascannon is worth 20 points. Further, we know from the Stormraven entry that a twin-linked Assault Cannon is worth as much as a twin-linked Lascannon. If we assume that the cost for twin-linking is 50% of the weapon's cost, we end up with 30 points per twin-linked Lascannon/Assault Cannon. The removal of the three twin-linked Lascannons/Assault Cannons thus saves us 90 points, taking us to 160.

Power of the Machine Spirit is vauled at ~25 points, judging by the old BT Codex and the discount on Land Raiders (without PotMS) in the Chaos Space Marine Codex. As such, we're now at 135 points.

In the old BT Codex, Blessed Hull was at 25 points when it only protected against Lances, but was also very rarely, if ever, taken. This incarnation of Blessed Hull probably clocks in around that number, seeing as it's a vehicle without weapons, bringing the total to 160 points.

The purpose of the LRL is to provide an assault vehicle that doesn't cost in excess of 200 points. Thoughts?

Seems ok to me. It's survivable, but it can't do anything on it's own.

An almost-guaranteed way to get absolutely anything into melee is worth a damn sight more than 160pts. The only other Land Raider that's got ignores lance/melta is 300pts, I don't think its weaponry is worth 140pts and a transport reduction on its own.

Dropping Melta/Lance Immunity would make sense. Instead, base Blessed Hull on the Shield of Faith rule. I know that Blessed Hull was lifted from the old C:BT, but times have changed.

A 6+ invulnerable save is a lot easier for people to swallow. I'd say that this is reasonable at 160 points with that alteration.

Heck, you could probably get away with giving it a storm bolter without increasing the points

From a mechanical standpoint:

Does it have smoke launchers/searchlights? The option for assault launchers? What other upgrades are available? Basic vehicle upgrade options? BS4?

If you are running a LR with no guns, you should probably have 2 access points on each side, plus the front ramp. No guns cluttering up either of the front/back doors.

I don’t see the SM fielding a tank with -no- guns. Even if you rip the side guns out, you should have TLHBs at a minimum on the front mount (TLAsC if you are basing off of a LRC/R) If you are prying even that front gun off, I’d like to see a stormbolter permanently fixed, with the normal option for an extra (like a rhino)

This thing has a laser-like focus you normally expect from Eldar aspect warriors. It very much goes against the grain for a space marine tank to be this hyper-specialized. Thematically, that rubs me the wrong way. But 160 points for a mono-task battle taxi, even one as good at it’s job as this one, seems a reasonable price.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
An almost-guaranteed way to get absolutely anything into melee is worth a damn sight more than 160pts. The only other Land Raider that's got ignores lance/melta is 300pts, I don't think its weaponry is worth 140pts and a transport reduction on its own.

Not, it's not. In fact, 160 might be too much. This thing adds 160 to the cost of a CC unit that is likely to only get to kill ONE unit. After winning their first combat, they will likely be gunned down like dogs.

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
An almost-guaranteed way to get absolutely anything into melee is worth a damn sight more than 160pts. The only other Land Raider that's got ignores lance/melta is 300pts, I don't think its weaponry is worth 140pts and a transport reduction on its own.

Not, it's not. In fact, 160 might be too much. This thing adds 160 to the cost of a CC unit that is likely to only get to kill ONE unit. After winning their first combat, they will likely be gunned down like dogs.

I'd pay a lot more for the power to get Mephiston and nineteen Death Company into position to reliably pull off a disordered charge to lock down an entire gunline, or to get some Deathwing Hammernators in position to beat on the other guy's Riptides. A hundred and sixty points would be a fine price except for the fact that taking away lance and melta means nothing can actually kill this thing. Barring the Vindicare Assassin (which I have been trying to do the math for and haven't been able to) your options are Haywire weapons (not easily available in sufficient quantity unless you want to take a couple of otherwise useless units), ordnance (a gamble of long odds; a Vindicator has a 75% chance of doing something, but if you're going to get in that close you're about to get charged by whatever's inside), and Monstrous Creatures (again, you're about to be charged by whatever's inside). A model that can't actually be killed unless you're one of two or three armies with the right special rules in your Codex is a bad design choice (Yes, the Land Raider Achilles is a bad design choice too). Pull off the immune to lance/melta and it's much more reasonable.

Take off the immune to melta/lance and throw a HB on it. Have it come with Extra Armor baseline.

Increase the Price to 200. It's still AV14 all around, and I'd just drive it around Ramming and Tank Shocking things once I had dumped the people out. It can still hit other tanks with S9 hits just by ramming into it at full speed.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
An almost-guaranteed way to get absolutely anything into melee is worth a damn sight more than 160pts. The only other Land Raider that's got ignores lance/melta is 300pts, I don't think its weaponry is worth 140pts and a transport reduction on its own.

Not, it's not. In fact, 160 might be too much. This thing adds 160 to the cost of a CC unit that is likely to only get to kill ONE unit. After winning their first combat, they will likely be gunned down like dogs.

I'd pay a lot more for the power to get Mephiston and nineteen Death Company into position to reliably pull off a disordered charge to lock down an entire gunline, or to get some Deathwing Hammernators in position to beat on the other guy's Riptides. A hundred and sixty points would be a fine price except for the fact that taking away lance and melta means nothing can actually kill this thing. Barring the Vindicare Assassin (which I have been trying to do the math for and haven't been able to) your options are Haywire weapons (not easily available in sufficient quantity unless you want to take a couple of otherwise useless units), ordnance (a gamble of long odds; a Vindicator has a 75% chance of doing something, but if you're going to get in that close you're about to get charged by whatever's inside), and Monstrous Creatures (again, you're about to be charged by whatever's inside). A model that can't actually be killed unless you're one of two or three armies with the right special rules in your Codex is a bad design choice (Yes, the Land Raider Achilles is a bad design choice too). Pull off the immune to lance/melta and it's much more reasonable.

Oh, I'd take away the lance and melta immunity. I didn't think about that hard enough.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd pay a lot more for the power to get Mephiston and nineteen Death Company into position to reliably pull off a disordered charge to lock down an entire gunline, or to get some Deathwing Hammernators in position to beat on the other guy's Riptides. A hundred and sixty points would be a fine price except for the fact that taking away lance and melta means nothing can actually kill this thing. Barring the Vindicare Assassin (which I have been trying to do the math for and haven't been able to) your options are Haywire weapons (not easily available in sufficient quantity unless you want to take a couple of otherwise useless units), ordnance (a gamble of long odds; a Vindicator has a 75% chance of doing something, but if you're going to get in that close you're about to get charged by whatever's inside), and Monstrous Creatures (again, you're about to be charged by whatever's inside). A model that can't actually be killed unless you're one of two or three armies with the right special rules in your Codex is a bad design choice (Yes, the Land Raider Achilles is a bad design choice too). Pull off the immune to lance/melta and it's much more reasonable.

You seem to have missed the part where this can only be taken by Black Templars, meaning that the only things in it will be standard Hammernators or Crusader squads.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd pay a lot more for the power to get Mephiston and nineteen Death Company into position to reliably pull off a disordered charge to lock down an entire gunline, or to get some Deathwing Hammernators in position to beat on the other guy's Riptides. A hundred and sixty points would be a fine price except for the fact that taking away lance and melta means nothing can actually kill this thing. Barring the Vindicare Assassin (which I have been trying to do the math for and haven't been able to) your options are Haywire weapons (not easily available in sufficient quantity unless you want to take a couple of otherwise useless units), ordnance (a gamble of long odds; a Vindicator has a 75% chance of doing something, but if you're going to get in that close you're about to get charged by whatever's inside), and Monstrous Creatures (again, you're about to be charged by whatever's inside). A model that can't actually be killed unless you're one of two or three armies with the right special rules in your Codex is a bad design choice (Yes, the Land Raider Achilles is a bad design choice too). Pull off the immune to lance/melta and it's much more reasonable.

You seem to have missed the part where this can only be taken by Black Templars, meaning that the only things in it will be standard Hammernators or Crusader squads.

Point taken.

Meantimewise we seem to have gotten to a 175-200pt vehicle, 14 armour, 4 hull points, one heavy bolter in the turret slot, twenty models with side/rear access and assault ramps, and Extra Armour. It seems like you get the point across in a less silly manner here.

 Furyou Miko wrote:


You seem to have missed the part where this can only be taken by Black Templars, meaning that the only things in it will be standard Hammernators or Crusader squads.

Also vanguard vets, honor guard, centurions (both assault and shooty), assault marines, CC scouts, and wet kittens.

Although some of those things have the same combat potential, so are a little redundant.

 Nevelon wrote:
From a mechanical standpoint:
This thing has a laser-like focus you normally expect from Eldar aspect warriors. It very much goes against the grain for a space marine tank to be this hyper-specialized. Thematically, that rubs me the wrong way. But 160 points for a mono-task battle taxi, even one as good at it’s job as this one, seems a reasonable price.

I agree. It's not like Marines to possess such a vehicle. I think at least one weapon is expected, perhaps something to assist with "clearing the way" for the assault. A front-mounted Flamer? Maybe a pair of flamers that are fixed on the very front of the track unit?

 Nevelon wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:


You seem to have missed the part where this can only be taken by Black Templars, meaning that the only things in it will be standard Hammernators or Crusader squads.

Also vanguard vets, honor guard, centurions (both assault and shooty), assault marines, CC scouts, and wet kittens.

Although some of those things have the same combat potential, so are a little redundant.

Look what you made me do! LOOK AT IT!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:


You seem to have missed the part where this can only be taken by Black Templars, meaning that the only things in it will be standard Hammernators or Crusader squads.

Also vanguard vets, honor guard, centurions (both assault and shooty), assault marines, CC scouts, and wet kittens.

Although some of those things have the same combat potential, so are a little redundant.

Look what you made me do! LOOK AT IT!

Spoiler:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:


You seem to have missed the part where this can only be taken by Black Templars, meaning that the only things in it will be standard Hammernators or Crusader squads.

Also vanguard vets, honor guard, centurions (both assault and shooty), assault marines, CC scouts, and wet kittens.

Although some of those things have the same combat potential, so are a little redundant.

Look what you made me do! LOOK AT IT!

Spoiler:

Have you not been paying atention to this thread? BT chapter tactics only! That’s an Ultramarine Land Raider. And all of the UM wet kitten squads were devoured at the Battle of Macragge.

I can't help it, it was the only land raider I could find with it's doors open.

Just use battlewagonz Best assault transports ever. Unfortunately, you can't get kff.

 koooaei wrote:
Just use battlewagonz Best assault transports ever. Unfortunately, you can't get kff.

Yeah, as soon as I can get Battlewagons for my Templars...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
An almost-guaranteed way to get absolutely anything into melee is worth a damn sight more than 160pts. The only other Land Raider that's got ignores lance/melta is 300pts, I don't think its weaponry is worth 140pts and a transport reduction on its own.

Not, it's not. In fact, 160 might be too much. This thing adds 160 to the cost of a CC unit that is likely to only get to kill ONE unit. After winning their first combat, they will likely be gunned down like dogs.

I'd pay a lot more for the power to get Mephiston and nineteen Death Company into position to reliably pull off a disordered charge to lock down an entire gunline, or to get some Deathwing Hammernators in position to beat on the other guy's Riptides.

Even if you could take this as anyone other than BT, Mephiston isn't an IC. Further, the entire point is to provide a good assault transport that doesn't break the bank, because there's little to no point in trying to play a melee Black Templars list at the moment.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Barring the Vindicare Assassin (which I have been trying to do the math for and haven't been able to) your options are Haywire weapons (not easily available in sufficient quantity unless you want to take a couple of otherwise useless units), ordnance (a gamble of long odds; a Vindicator has a 75% chance of doing something, but if you're going to get in that close you're about to get charged by whatever's inside), and Monstrous Creatures (again, you're about to be charged by whatever's inside). A model that can't actually be killed unless you're one of two or three armies with the right special rules in your Codex is a bad design choice (Yes, the Land Raider Achilles is a bad design choice too). Pull off the immune to lance/melta and it's much more reasonable.

Anythign that's S9 or S10 can penetrate AV14. The fact that the current meta is S6/7 spam isn't my problem, the only two armies I can think of on the top of my head that don't have good non-melta/lance, non-melee responses to AV14 are Sisters and Orks. One of those is the oldest Codex in the game, the other one needs quite a bit of expanding anyway. Anyone else has the options to take weapons that can kill this thing, it's just that Hammerheads, Vindicators, Leman Russ Demolishers, Tyrannofexes and similar aren't en vouge right now, because there's little to no heavy armour present on the battlefield, and the light armour dies like crazy to S6/7 spam.

Crazyterran wrote:
Take off the immune to melta/lance and throw a HB on it. Have it come with Extra Armor baseline.

Increase the Price to 200. It's still AV14 all around, and I'd just drive it around Ramming and Tank Shocking things once I had dumped the people out. It can still hit other tanks with S9 hits just by ramming into it at full speed.

200 points for an AV14 box with a Heavy Bolter is a robbery. Yes, it can all-out ram stuff, at which point it's a ghetto lascannon. Whoop-dee-doo.

I've been pondering something similar for a siege assault vanguard army. Its quite frustrating when the most seemingly appropriate land raider variation (Achilles) can't fit either of the scoring infantry units (10man assault squad or 5 siege mantlet marines). Was pondering on swapping out the thunder fire cannon for 12 man capacity and assault vehicle, maybe with the option to switch TL multmelta sponsons for torrenting heavy flamers.

325 pts seem appropriate for this?

Squad: Land Raider Template
Unit: Land Raider, Points Per: 155, Models: 1, Vehicle Type: Tank, Transport,
WS-, BS-4, S-, FA-14, SA-14, RA-14, HP-4, I-, A-.
Wargear:
Search Light
Smoker Launchers

Special Rules:
Transport Capacity: 10
Access Points: 5
- L. Rear Side, L. Front Side, Front, R. Front Side, R. Rear Side
Fire Points: 0
Assault Vehicle


If this isn't clear, then everything else needs to be on top of this, so +10 cap will likely be around +20.
Blessed Hull will be +25 thereabouts.

So 200pts.

 Ovion wrote:
Squad: Land Raider Template
Unit: Land Raider, Points Per: 155, Models: 1, Vehicle Type: Tank, Transport,
WS-, BS-4, S-, FA-14, SA-14, RA-14, HP-4, I-, A-.
Wargear:
Search Light
Smoker Launchers

Special Rules:
Transport Capacity: 10
Access Points: 5
- L. Rear Side, L. Front Side, Front, R. Front Side, R. Rear Side
Fire Points: 0
Assault Vehicle


If this isn't clear, then everything else needs to be on top of this, so +10 cap will likely be around +20.
Blessed Hull will be +25 thereabouts.

So 200pts.

200 points for a weaponless transport, even one with this incarnation of Blessed Hull and Assault Vehicle, is insane. It's just not playable at all. Where'd you get the template from anyway?

He created it. I'm not even sure if it's based off the Mechanicum Land Raider or not.

CSM.
But the difference between the CSM and SM Land Raider is 20pts and Power of the Machine Spirit.

So we can assume that POTMS is rated at 20pts.

But the costing is sound.
-2 TL Lascannons (-60)
-TL Heavy Bolter (-15)
230-75= 155.

Weaponless Land Raider.

'Walrus's initial calculations were wrong, because a Land Raider has 2 TL Lascannons and a TL Heavy Bolter, NOT 2 TL Lascannons and a TL Assault Cannon.

 Ovion wrote:
CSM.
But the difference between the CSM and SM Land Raider is 20pts and Power of the Machine Spirit.

So we can assume that POTMS is rated at 20pts.

Or that GW has no idea of how to price properly.

Or that GW has no idea how to price properly.

But working with what we've got~

 Ovion wrote:


'Walrus's initial calculations were wrong, because a Land Raider has 2 TL Lascannons and a TL Heavy Bolter, NOT 2 TL Lascannons and a TL Assault Cannon.

Derp, I fethed that up.