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Well with the new announcement of the Imperial Knights I had some questions. So I have been looking around and have been able to find most of the rules for them, but I still have some questions. Since they follow the rules for Super Heavies, can they only be used in Escalation and Apoc games, or are they also legal for good ol' 40k too? It just says that they follow the same rules like a Super Heavy and also says that they aren't a lord of war choice. Thats my main question because I want to know if I can utilize them in my White Scars army. My second question is, do we know if they can be used with CSM too? From the models that are on GWs site I don't see a chaos looking model. I think that overall the rules are very balanced and have been play tested well.

If you haven't already checked out the rules, they can be found here:

http://murphy80.hubpages.com/hub/Imperial-Knights-Warhammer-40k-News

I think that these models look bada$$ too! Check it out!

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/imperial-knights-oaths-warhammer-40k/

Im going to keep all of the Imperial Knights rules and stats up to date here, so stay tuned!

Short answer is to wait for the codex next Saturday.

Basic rules in the latest White Dwarf.
Codex for them in March.
You'll have to wait for most of your answers I'm afraid.

also please do note there is no difference between a normal game and escalation.

like nutty said, escalation is standard 40k, and someone is free to take it to any standard game they can fit it unless (its only if TO's ban it or you agree beforehand not to use them)

 BewareOfTom wrote:
like nutty said, escalation is standard 40k, and someone is free to take it to any standard game they can fit it unless (its only if TO's ban it or you agree beforehand not to use them)

Indeed, although you of course can refuse a game for any reason. But its on the same level as refusing to play aganst Taudar or Tyranids or because your opponent is wearing a Pink Floyd tshirt.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 BewareOfTom wrote:
like nutty said, escalation is standard 40k, and someone is free to take it to any standard game they can fit it unless (its only if TO's ban it or you agree beforehand not to use them)

Indeed, although you of course can refuse a game for any reason. But its on the same level as refusing to play aganst Taudar or Tyranids or because your opponent is wearing a Pink Floyd tshirt.

I hear you guys on waiting for a week or so. Now I beg to differ on Escalation being the same as "regular" 40k. Im not looking to get into a full fledged verbal battle over this, but to clarify. Now my opponent can just show up with say a Phantom Titan for our 3k game? I know thats going pretty big for an example, but I don't even need to be fielding a SH/GC and it is legal? I just still think 40k is regular 40k unless someone says that they want to play with Escalation. So if I have a match with someone, I can just show up with a Lord of War and unless they say no, its perfectly legal to field something like that?

That's why you need to discuss these things with your opponent when you arrange a game. Unless your local gaming group has an understanding otherwise then agreeing to a game of 40K does include Escalation and 40K approved Forgeworld models.

We don't class escalation as ''normal'' 40k. Escalation, data slates etc we always check what we're using and those elements are often singled out at tournaments etc. I don't check if I can take a hive tyrant in a list, but for me that's the difference between normal and 40k+. Not that I would dislike playing someone with any rules but no one at my FLSG would think about running them without checking.

One day it may be seen a 'normal' - when there's a more populated rule set but many people don't really know or care about it, or don't care for it. Some people don't want to play against E. That's fine and I do see a difference between not wanting to playing that and not playing Tau.

Escalation is as official as datatslates and formations. However, opponents can still choose not to play against them. Proper 40K etiquette in our area is to ask the opponent if they want to play against Escalation or Stronghold units (same goes for dataslates and formations or units such as the R'varna). Otherwise, it's considered a "dick" move to pull a titan or a Void Shield Generator against someone not prepared for it.

In a friendly game:
Would people be willing to play against a list with three heldrakes and Brand wielding Flying Prince, all without a word of protest, simply because it is a list that is legal or would they rather find players which create more interesting lists that involve a variation of units?
* Substitute your own feared 'broken' list if you don't fear immortal-ish flyers.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 BewareOfTom wrote:
like nutty said, escalation is standard 40k, and someone is free to take it to any standard game they can fit it unless (its only if TO's ban it or you agree beforehand not to use them)

Indeed, although you of course can refuse a game for any reason. But its on the same level as refusing to play aganst Taudar or Tyranids or because your opponent is wearing a Pink Floyd tshirt.

I disagree. Refusing to play an opponent because he's bringing a unit that can fire 4 D blasts that can obliterate your army in 1 turn and which you have no defense whatsover against is different from refusing a game against someone who brings normal 40K units. Maybe you may not like his Pink Floyd shirt, but that definitely isn't the reason why you are refusing to play against his titans.

Escilation is as offical 40K as Mysterious Objective.
And just as likely to be not used.

 Gloomfang wrote:
Escilation is as offical 40K as Mysterious Objective.
And just as likely to be not used.

LOL! Yeah, I forget about those every game.

the phantom isn't a lord or war so can only be placed in apoc games, that being said at 2500points your pretty much playing apoc anyway.

your free to play the game however you wish, but you cannot state that it is normal 40k, your playing with a subset of rules if you exclude escalation and stronghold assault, these are rule supplement books and are as much a part of the game now as the shooting phase.

the reason the knights are becoming a codex simply proves this, they are an army in their own right, you require the escalation or strong hold books in order to use them (presuming the rules for super heavies and D weapons doesn't get copied into their codex) and you are quite likely to see them in tournaments formats.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

JinxDragon wrote:
In a friendly game:
Would people be willing to play against a list with three heldrakes and Brand wielding Flying Prince, all without a word of protest, simply because it is a list that is legal or would they rather find players which create more interesting lists that involve a variation of units?
* Substitute your own feared 'broken' list if you don't fear immortal-ish flyers.

take the aquala stronghold point with macro canon, that'll sort them flyers out for you

The Phantom IS a Lord of War. Forgeworld released a PDF containing a bucketload of Lords of War you can take.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
take the aquala stronghold point with macro canon, that'll sort them flyers out for you

Is it not a Blast weapon?

 Imperator_Class wrote:
The Phantom IS a Lord of War. Forgeworld released a PDF containing a bucketload of Lords of War you can take.

apologies, I do have the list printed out and missed it (not sure how but hey-ho)



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 grendel083 wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
take the aquala stronghold point with macro canon, that'll sort them flyers out for you

Is it not a Blast weapon?

yes but it has an after effect for flyers (two birds with one stone effect)

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
take the aquala stronghold point with macro canon, that'll sort them flyers out for you

Is it not a Blast weapon?

yes but it has an after effect for flyers (two birds with one stone effect)

As anti flyer effects go, it's pretty weak.
Plus the giant point-sink that is the Aquila is a 2+ roll away from being detonated by any D weapon.
All-in-all a terrible terrible fortification.

Personally, I've always loved low model count armies, fielding 17 models at 1500pts just makes my day, well, until grav guns and D-plates "shifted" the meta. Now, I can field the ultimate low model count army of 4 models at 1500pts. Glorious!

All jokes aside, Imperial Knights are about the most balanced new unit GW has produce since 6th Ed released, and seem to redress the imbalance in the current meta by requiring an almost opposite counter-tactic to deal with than the current Deathstar lists we see on the top tables. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to the shift in meta.

SJ

So they follow the Valve design philosophy of fighting broken with broken.

http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/737

I wouldn't say Knights are broken, as an Escalation unit they're pretty balanced.

Ranged Str. D weapons are certainly broken, and sadly the Imperium already have too many of those.

Warhound and Revnant are king. Go Imperium/Eldar or go home.

It's a nice unit. But seriously, the Imperium don't need more help. Shame they didn't give the other forces a boost. Poor Orks really can't compete in the world of Str. D.

 BewareOfTom wrote:
like nutty said, escalation is standard 40k, and someone is free to take it to any standard game they can fit it unless (its only if TO's ban it or you agree beforehand not to use them)

People keep saying that... hoping to make it true.

Escalation is different than standard 40K, just like city fight or Planetstrike. Don't believe me? Jervis said it.... Maybe he just didn't get the memo...




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 jy2 wrote:
Escalation is as official as datatslates and formations.

Escalation is official... that does not mean it is standard. Planetstrike is also official.... city fight is also official... Does not mean any of them are part of 'standard 40K'

coredump wrote:
People keep saying that... hoping to make it true.

No, people keep saying it because it already is true. Some people just stubbornly refuse to accept that GW changed the rules of the game in a way that they don't approve of.

Escalation is official... that does not mean it is standard. Planetstrike is also official.... city fight is also official... Does not mean any of them are part of 'standard 40K'

Nope. This is absolutely wrong. Planetstrike is an optional expansion that specifically says it is a different way of playing the game, and requires both players to bring appropriate Planetstrike armies and follow the special Planetstrike rules. Escalation, on the other hand, has no such statement. It's part of the normal game, just like choosing which codex to use.

Now, you're obviously free to choose not to play against anyone who uses the Escalation rules in their army, but that's no different than declining to play against a codex-only top-tier tournament list with your "fluff" list.

coredump wrote:
Escalation is different than standard 40K, just like city fight or Planetstrike. Don't believe me? Jervis said it.... Maybe he just didn't get the memo...

That not ACTUALLY what he said. You are of course referring to the Dc 16th WD daily statement where he described a list of supplements for 40k and included escalation and stronghold in that list. He then continued to say that 40k could be played with or with out any of the listed supplements and that a pre-game chat with your opponent was recommended. This does not change the idea that escalation is 'on' by default, unlike planetstrike which is 'off' by default. The key difference between the two is that escalation is off by default becouse the rulebook says so; Escalation has no such statement. The fact that the game can be played with out it does not nullify the supplements default or 'standard' status. As others have stated, the game can also be played with out the ork codex but refusing to play in a game of 40k that includes orks is refusing to play a standard game of 40k; refusing to play a game of 40k that includes escalation is no different.

I'm sure someone has already mentioned this but.... These things are smaller than Wraithknights - they look eye to eye with a Trygon, so halfway between a riptide and a Wraithknight... Why are they Superheavy Walkers? I mean, OK, the obvious answer is - GW wants some reason for people to play Escalation, by bringing in a fancy new model - but these could have easily been brought in as a regular walker/monstrous creature - what's the deal?

Feels silly to have a taller, more technologically advanced, better armed Wraithknight called a regular unit while this thing rocks Superheavy rules... anyone? Bueller?

majendie wrote:
Why are they Superheavy Walkers?

Because the ancient fluff said so.

Grendel083,
Your view on the Imperium being showered with all the nice things is accurate, I am still annoyed we received an updated fortification book and everything inside was imperil! That seems like a missed opportunity to balance the huge gap in fortification designs, remove certain 'modeling for advantage' claims from conversions and give us unique rules for each faction to have their own fortifications. Instead we get something that was filled with more Imperial stuff and a few broken ruled no-model buildings that fluff wise are... imperial.

Majendie,
Unit Types are crunchy and the elements in your comparison are all fluffy, therefore it is not a valid comparison as the answer is simple: They use the Unit Type rules the writers wished the model to use. While I can agree on you that some of the choices do not make sense, and the Monstrous Creature status on Wrathknights and Riptides is one of those things, we simply have to accept what they have put into their game. Particularly in situations where they had a concept, Super-Heavy, but where probably unsure about putting it into the game until other elements came along and made it seem a little less 'iffy.' It would be nice if they retroactively changed the classifications, but Game Workshop rarely Errata's actual breaks in the system let alone using it to update system changes, so there is nothing we can do there.

Personally:
Make the Riptide a Walker
WraithKnights could be super-heavy walkers or Gargantuan Creature
Right now there is an ill balance between the two units and that one change would create enough of a difference to smooth these balance issues out.

changing the riptide to a 4HP armor 13 front and side walker would help balance things out. Wraithknight being a 5HP super heavy with armor 12 all around and a 6+ flickerfield or whatever would also be a good change.

Orcs have one of the best escalation lists. 1 Group of Lootas blew thru my 11 voids in 1 round and he still had the 2nd group. Then his custom stompa used D on my 3 Void Buildings. My Titan was dead turn 2. and I never got thru his 9 Voids.