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Hello
Are tyranid embarked in buildings suffer from ib? priviously they didn't as per now-outdated faq.

Then if they don't have anything in the rules saying they don't suffer from it, they'll have to test

Read their IB rules as it clearly says when it should be rolled for and when it shouldn't.

Do fearless nids suffer from IB? Because units embarked in a build are fearless.

 deviantduck wrote:
Do fearless nids suffer from IB? Because units embarked in a build are fearless.

Yes they do.

Gloomfang wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Do fearless nids suffer from IB? Because units embarked in a build are fearless.

Yes they do.

However, if they have IB(Hunt) they can't be affected by 1-3 effect.

cross-posting this from a Nid tactics thread...

Until we get a new FAQ, you roll for instinctive behaviour as normal when in a building. However, being inside a transport grants Fearless. So...

Feed
1-3 Is applied as normal
4-5 Buildings aren't assault transports, so you can't legally declare a charge here. The unit can't do anything this turn.
6 Has no real effect

Hunt
1-3 This result specifically says that Fearless models ignore it, and to use the next result instead.
4-5 You can't run, but who cares. The unit still has to shoot the nearest enemy, though.
6 Takes effect as normal

Lurk
1-3 This is where it gets fun!

BRB wrote:A unit that is falling back must attempt to Regroup by taking a Regroup test in their Movement phase just before they move

BRB wrote:Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests

Therefore the unit acts as if it fails a morale check, but as it's still within the building and therefore Fearless, it has to regroup before it moves. It therefore automatically passes the regroup test and doesn't have to move, but is treated as having regrouped that turn and therefore follows the normal rules for that.
4-5 You can shoot, as you're within a building
6 Has no effect


Alternatively, there's a roundabout, but RAW-proof way to do this for things like Venoms on bastions like so:
1) Intentionally move your Venomthrope out of synapse range and onto the battlements of a Bastion
2) Go to Ground with it before the following turn (giving it 2+ cover save, yay)
3) Assuming it's still not in Synapse range at the start of the following turn, it will be exempt from the IB test

 xttz wrote:

Lurk
1-3 This is where it gets fun!

BRB wrote:A unit that is falling back must attempt to Regroup by taking a Regroup test in their Movement phase just before they move

BRB wrote:Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests

Therefore the unit acts as if it fails a morale check, but as it's still within the building and therefore Fearless, it has to regroup before it moves. It therefore automatically passes the regroup test and doesn't have to move, but is treated as having regrouped that turn and therefore follows the normal rules for that.
4-5 You can shoot, as you're within a building
6 Has no effect


Alternatively, there's a roundabout, but RAW-proof way to do this for things like Venoms on bastions like so:
1) Intentionally move your Venomthrope out of synapse range and onto the battlements of a Bastion
2) Go to Ground with it before the following turn (giving it 2+ cover save, yay)
3) Assuming it's still not in Synapse range at the start of the following turn, it will be exempt from the IB test

A few problems with your take on it:

1) When you roll 1-3 on the Lurk table you get
"Survive! 'The unit is treated as having failed a morale test and must immediately fall back.'"

So you must make the Fall Back move before you get to the Movement phase to make your Regroup check. The Fall Back move is a compulsory out of phase move. If they hit a Synapse creature then they do snap out of it and then get to move as normal when you get to the actual Movement phase. (Note: Just realized that this could make the unit actually have to make 2 Fall Back moves in one turn. Once when it fails and once during the Movement phase.)

2) You can not choose to GtG. You can only do it as a reaction to being shot.

3) A Venomthrope on the battlements does not count as being embarked and you do not get to measure from the wall of the bastion anymore.

Thanks for posting this here. I was in the middle of creating a new topic when I saw this pop up. I hate to bring it up, but I got blindsided by an opponent who told me to "show me the rule". And I couldn't.

6th Edition Tyranid Codex: The gift that keeps on giving...

 Gloomfang wrote:


A few problems with your take on it:

1) When you roll 1-3 on the Lurk table you get
"Survive! 'The unit is treated as having failed a morale test and must immediately fall back.'"

So you must make the Fall Back move before you get to the Movement phase to make your Regroup check. The Fall Back move is a compulsory out of phase move. If they hit a Synapse creature then they do snap out of it and then get to move as normal when you get to the actual Movement phase. (Note: Just realized that this could make the unit actually have to make 2 Fall Back moves in one turn. Once when it fails and once during the Movement phase.)

2) You can not choose to GtG. You can only do it as a reaction to being shot.

3) A Venomthrope on the battlements does not count as being embarked and you do not get to measure from the wall of the bastion anymore.

Thanks for posting this here. I was in the middle of creating a new topic when I saw this pop up. I hate to bring it up, but I got blindsided by an opponent who told me to "show me the rule". And I couldn't.

6th Edition Tyranid Codex: The gift that keeps on giving...

1)
a) I can't find the phrase "out of phase move" used in the rulebook or FAQ.
b) According the to BRB FAQ, actions that happen "at the start of the turn" and "at the start of the movement phase" occur at the same time - there is no phase before the movement phase. Ergo, the failed morale check happens in the movement phase, and a Fall Back move is impossible because the unit must attempt to Regroup ... in their Movement phase just before they move [RAW].

2) True, but who isn't going to shoot a lone Venomthrope standing alone on a tower?

3) I guess the best way to play it safe here is to just put a Zoanthrope on the battlements and the Venomthrope inside.

 xttz wrote:

a) I can't find the phrase "out of phase move" used in the rulebook or FAQ.
b) According the to BRB FAQ, actions that happen "at the start of the turn" and "at the start of the movement phase" occur at the same time - there is no phase before the movement phase. Ergo, the failed morale check happens in the movement phase, and a Fall Back move is impossible because the unit must attempt to Regroup ... in their Movement phase just before they move [RAW].

I was using my own wording with "out of phase move". I will be more carefull.

I believe that this is the rule you are trying to use. (Correct me if I am wrong).

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

The problem is that the specific rule for IB overrides the general rule for when to move your model. You are saying that there is a failed morale check that happens in the Movement phase. That is not the case. At the start of your turn you must make an IB check. You follow the rules for the IB check. If you have a unit with Lurk that fails IB and rolls a 1-3 then they are "treated as having made a failed morale test and must immediately fall back". That means that you must make the Fall Back move at that time (and that is what I meant by out of phase movement).

So in short you can not Regroup from a failed IB:Lurk test because there is nothing to Regroup from. They must make a Fall Back move because IB says that they must, not because they are treated as a unit that failed a morale test.

That was the reason for my note. You could fail IB:Lurk and Fall Back to within range of a Syanapse creature. They Synapse rule overides the Falling Back rule. You can then move the unit as usual.

So from another viewpoint. How is said fall back move made? Where is the permission / requirement to disembark the building? Assuming we do decide you must disembark, how far do you move? Must you use the exit closest to your table edge? There is no raw here.

Backlash wrote:
So from another viewpoint. How is said fall back move made? Where is the permission / requirement to disembark the building? Assuming we do decide you must disembark, how far do you move? Must you use the exit closest to your table edge? There is no raw here.

Fall Back in this case would be 2D6. It is a standard Fall Back move for the unit.

You must fall back towards the table edge. If you can not you are Trapped and destroyed.

Playing nice with the permission to Disembark. If there is no permission to Disembark then the unit can not move and is "Trapped" and destroyed. Not sure how that would work because like most Nid players I almost never have Embarked units.

The RAW is there. It's just scattered across a ton of different sections and books.

Your making connections that are not there. You can either disembark, in which case you must use the rules for disembarking. Meaning max 6 inches. Or you can move 2D6. You can't do both as there is no rule allowing you to do both. As for the unit destroyed theory. It is very well layed out what destroys a unit. It isn't a fact you can't disembark. Its the fact you have no permission / requirement to, simply because there is are no rules for being forced to fall back from inside of something. Again there is no raw. Anything said here is purely speculation until a faq is released.

Backlash wrote:
Your making connections that are not there. You can either disembark, in which case you must use the rules for disembarking. Meaning max 6 inches. Or you can move 2D6. You can't do both as there is no rule allowing you to do both. As for the unit destroyed theory. It is very well layed out what destroys a unit. It isn't a fact you can't disembark. Its the fact you have no permission / requirement to, simply because there is are no rules for being forced to fall back from inside of something. Again there is no raw. Anything said here is purely speculation until a faq is released.

Then RAW the unit is Trapped and destroyed in most cases. And that is stupid, but the rules are pretty clear.

To leave a building I need to Disembark. IB is actually check during the start of the Movement phase so I think you have explicit permission to Disembark during that phase. Need to check the wording and timing, (Maybe RAW)

I have to Fall Back Immediately. (RAW)
I have to roll for Fall Back distance because the rule says I have too. (RAW)

If I roll under 6" then I may or not be OK. I can fulfill the requirement of moving my full Fall Back Distance. (RAW if you can Disembark during your movement phase).

However if I roll a 7 or more then the unit (per RAW) is Trapped and Destroyed. As I would need to Disembark and that limits me to 6". (RAW)

"If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed." Pg 45 BRB

So that is even worse then I thought per RAW.

Need to see when you can Disembark. IB and Disembarking happen in the same phase so it should be permissible. There is no IB phase, but it does say start of turn.

 Gloomfang wrote:

Backlash wrote:
Your making connections that are not there. You can either disembark, in which case you must use the rules for disembarking. Meaning max 6 inches. Or you can move 2D6. You can't do both as there is no rule allowing you to do both. As for the unit destroyed theory. It is very well layed out what destroys a unit. It isn't a fact you can't disembark. Its the fact you have no permission / requirement to, simply because there is are no rules for being forced to fall back from inside of something. Again there is no raw. Anything said here is purely speculation until a faq is released.

Then RAW the unit is Trapped and destroyed in most cases. And that is stupid, but the rules are pretty clear.

To leave a building I need to Disembark. IB is actually check during the start of the Movement phase so I think you have explicit permission to Disembark during that phase. Need to check the wording and timing, (Maybe RAW)

I have to Fall Back Immediately. (RAW)
I have to roll for Fall Back distance because the rule says I have too. (RAW)

If I roll under 6" then I may or not be OK. I can fulfill the requirement of moving my full Fall Back Distance. (RAW if you can Disembark during your movement phase).

However if I roll a 7 or more then the unit (per RAW) is Trapped and Destroyed. As I would need to Disembark and that limits me to 6". (RAW)

"If the unit cannot perform a full fall back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed." Pg 45 BRB

So that is even worse then I thought per RAW.

Need to see when you can Disembark. IB and Disembarking happen in the same phase so it should be permissible. There is no IB phase, but it does say start of turn.

I would have to say simply that nothing happens if a unit that is inside a building fails an IB test and has to Fall Back.

The Fall Back rules do not grant permission to Disembark and therefor the unit cannot leave the building, it also does not "double back" and therefor cannot be "Trapped" and thus is destroyed.

This is simply a situation for which there is no applicable rule. So either the players roll it off, nothing happens and move on or the game breaks .

40k-noob wrote:

I would have to say simply that nothing happens if a unit that is inside a building fails an IB test and has to Fall Back.

The Fall Back rules do not grant permission to Disembark and therefor the unit cannot leave the building, it also does not "double back" and therefor cannot be "Trapped" and thus is destroyed.

Just wondering how you are not applying the "full fallback move" part of Trapped? If the unit doesn't leave the building then it did not make it's full fall back move. That is the very definition of Trapped.

RAW you have a set of criteria that you can not fulfill with a very definite answer of what happens if you can't fill them.

You must do X, if you can not do X then Y. It doesn't say why you can't do it. Just that if you can't the unit is destroyed.

As a Nid player I am not happy about it as it shows a real lack of play testing or thought into the army.

How we play it is very different from how it works RAW. HIWPI is that the unit Disembarks as IB checks happen during the Movement phase and you have permission to Disembark for the entire phase (as we read it). You then have to use up the rest of your Fall Back movement and keep to the rules for Trapped. But that it not RAW. Trying to keep it to RAW so I know what to do when facing a WAAC player or TFG at a tourny.

EDIT: Rules for Disembarking from a Building are on Pg93 and say they are the same as for vehicles on pg 79. The only relevant rule is that you start your Movement phase Embarked. and that they have to be placed within 6" and an enemy model can not be 1" of the access point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AND WE HAVE A WINNER!

Yoritomo of the Hive Mind

You may have had something here if it wasn't for the words "without doubling back".

If you go back to page 79 you'll read that disembarked models are placed by the access point, they do not count as moving out of the building. Also, because they are placed instead of moving the will never be partially disembarked (unless the enemy is in the way, in which case you use the emergency disembarkation rules).

After all the models in the unit are placed then you move the unit. At this point you must remain within 6" of the access point. The rule states that any excess movement is lost. However, the unit is not doubling back (which would make them trapped), the rule specifically states that they are hung up getting out of the access point.

You should never lose a unit because it falls back inside of a building.

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45954/ib-units-embarked-fortification?page=1&scrollTo=779824#ixzz2vEXqDkQQ

Erm, no, the placement is model by model, not the whole unit. You place a model, move it up to 6", then the next model, etc.

Ther eis no "doubling back" as you point out, meaning they cannot be Trapped

 Gloomfang wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

I would have to say simply that nothing happens if a unit that is inside a building fails an IB test and has to Fall Back.

The Fall Back rules do not grant permission to Disembark and therefor the unit cannot leave the building, it also does not "double back" and therefor cannot be "Trapped" and thus is destroyed.

Just wondering how you are not applying the "full fallback move" part of Trapped? If the unit doesn't leave the building then it did not make it's full fall back move. That is the very definition of Trapped.

RAW you have a set of criteria that you can not fulfill with a very definite answer of what happens if you can't fill them.

You must do X, if you can not do X then Y. It doesn't say why you can't do it. Just that if you can't the unit is destroyed.

As a Nid player I am not happy about it as it shows a real lack of play testing or thought into the army.

How we play it is very different from how it works RAW. HIWPI is that the unit Disembarks as IB checks happen during the Movement phase and you have permission to Disembark for the entire phase (as we read it). You then have to use up the rest of your Fall Back movement and keep to the rules for Trapped. But that it not RAW. Trying to keep it to RAW so I know what to do when facing a WAAC player or TFG at a tourny.

EDIT: Rules for Disembarking from a Building are on Pg93 and say they are the same as for vehicles on pg 79. The only relevant rule is that you start your Movement phase Embarked. and that they have to be placed within 6" and an enemy model can not be 1" of the access point.

2 things:
1. You are incorrect about when to take the IB test. It occurs "At the beginning of each your turns..." so it most certainly does not happen "during the Movement phase" nor "at the beginning of the Movement phase" and thus your HIWPI premise is off completely.
for illustration purposes: Player Turn = { IB Tests [Movement Phase][Shooting Phase][Assault Phase]}

2. I am not applying the "full fallback move" part of Trapped because in order for Trapped! to apply the entire set of criteria must be met, "without doubling back" is an integral part of the criteria to determine if a unit is "Trapped!" Therefor a unit that cannot make the full fallback move but also does not double back, cannot be Trapped!

40k-noob wrote:
2 things:
1. You are incorrect about when to take the IB test. It occurs "At the beginning of each your turns..." so it most certainly does not happen "during the Movement phase" nor "at the beginning of the Movement phase" and thus your HIWPI premise is off completely.
for illustration purposes: Player Turn = { IB Tests [Movement Phase][Shooting Phase][Assault Phase]}

2. I am not applying the "full fallback move" part of Trapped because in order for Trapped! to apply the entire set of criteria must be met, "without doubling back" is an integral part of the criteria to determine if a unit is "Trapped!" Therefor a unit that cannot make the full fallback move but also does not double back, cannot be Trapped!

BRB Page 124, Arriving from Reserve - At the start of your Turn Two...
BRB, Page 68 - Blessings are manifested at the start of the Psyker's Movement phase.
BRB FAQ - Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68) A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

So according to GW, start of the turn (or beginning of the turn as they are the same) and start of the movement phase are the exact same time.

40k-noob wrote:
[1. You are incorrect about when to take the IB test. It occurs "At the beginning of each your turns..." so it most certainly does not happen "during the Movement phase" nor "at the beginning of the Movement phase" and thus your HIWPI premise is off completely.
for illustration purposes: Player Turn = { IB Tests [Movement Phase][Shooting Phase][Assault Phase]}

Start of movement phase == start of turn. Demonstrable fact.

Fair enough, it still doesn't happen, "during the movement phase" as Gloomfang stated.

The start of the movement phase is somehow NOT "during" the movement phase?

40k-noob wrote:
Fair enough, it still doesn't happen, "during the movement phase" as Gloomfang stated.

How is the start of the movement phase not during the movement phase?
Do reserves not happen during the movement phase?
Blessings/Maledictions?

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Fair enough, it still doesn't happen, "during the movement phase" as Gloomfang stated.

How is the start of the movement phase not during the movement phase?
Do reserves not happen during the movement phase?
Blessings/Maledictions?

It is as much "during the movement phase" as the "end of the movement phase" is.

There is a clear distinction as to when it happens where as "during" implies it could happen at any point within the movement phase.

if you would like to parse every possible definition of during then sure, it is "during" the movement phase but if you are going to equate the two then Blessings/Maledictions, Reserves, Vector Strike and Interceptor all also happen "during" and all can occur simultaneously or at any point within the Movement phase.

40k-noob wrote:
It is as much "during the movement phase" as the "end of the movement phase" is.

There is a clear distinction as to when it happens where as "during" implies it could happen at any point within the movement phase.

if you would like to parse every possible definition of during then sure, it is "during" the movement phase but if you are going to equate the two then Blessings/Maledictions, Reserves, Vector Strike and Interceptor all also happen "during" and all can occur simultaneously or at any point within the Movement phase.

That's a strange logical leap.

During the movement phase, is during the movement phase.
Start of the Movement phase is also during the Movement Phase, but specifically at the start of it.

How do you go from "start" to "any point"?

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Fair enough, it still doesn't happen, "during the movement phase" as Gloomfang stated.

How is the start of the movement phase not during the movement phase?
Do reserves not happen during the movement phase?
Blessings/Maledictions?

It is as much "during the movement phase" as the "end of the movement phase" is.

There is a clear distinction as to when it happens where as "during" implies it could happen at any point within the movement phase.

if you would like to parse every possible definition of during then sure, it is "during" the movement phase but if you are going to equate the two then Blessings/Maledictions, Reserves, Vector Strike and Interceptor all also happen "during" and all can occur simultaneously or at any point within the Movement phase.

The underlined is false and not at all what I'm saying. Please don't strawman.

It happens during the movement phase. That's the total of what I was trying to say.

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
It is as much "during the movement phase" as the "end of the movement phase" is.

There is a clear distinction as to when it happens where as "during" implies it could happen at any point within the movement phase.

if you would like to parse every possible definition of during then sure, it is "during" the movement phase but if you are going to equate the two then Blessings/Maledictions, Reserves, Vector Strike and Interceptor all also happen "during" and all can occur simultaneously or at any point within the Movement phase.

That's a strange logical leap.

During the movement phase, is during the movement phase.
Start of the Movement phase is also during the Movement Phase, but specifically at the start of it.

How do you go from "start" to "any point"?

I dont. Perhaps you misunderstand what I wrote.

40k-noob wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
It is as much "during the movement phase" as the "end of the movement phase" is.

There is a clear distinction as to when it happens where as "during" implies it could happen at any point within the movement phase.

if you would like to parse every possible definition of during then sure, it is "during" the movement phase but if you are going to equate the two then Blessings/Maledictions, Reserves, Vector Strike and Interceptor all also happen "during" and all can occur simultaneously or at any point within the Movement phase.

That's a strange logical leap.

During the movement phase, is during the movement phase.
Start of the Movement phase is also during the Movement Phase, but specifically at the start of it.

How do you go from "start" to "any point"?

I dont. Perhaps you misunderstand what I wrote.

I hope so.
I read it as you saying something defined as being used at the start of the movement phase (or end) can be used at any point during the movement phase.

In a buidling.
Out of synapse.
Roll for IB.
IB forces fall back.

Isn't this where fearless kicks in? There are no rules covering falling back out of a transport because they made you fearless in one to negate any type of morale/fallback/movement forced action.

 deviantduck wrote:
In a buidling.
Out of synapse.
Roll for IB.
IB forces fall back.

Isn't this where fearless kicks in? There are no rules covering falling back out of a transport because they made you fearless in one to negate any type of morale/fallback/movement forced action.

The IB rule says to treat the unit as if it had failed a check, so Fearless does not get a chance to kick in since there was no actual test.

So that is why this thread has come about