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Sometimes I think during listbuilding we focus too much on squeezing out every drop of competetiveness and killing power as possible, to the detriment of our models.

And by that I mean WYSIWYG.

If you play by this rule and uphold it like something holy, you will invariably have to end up cutting, filing, pulling off and regluing different components and gadgets on your soldiers when either 40k transitions into a new edition, or a new codex is released.

This potentially ruins your models and casts part of the great paintjob you did away and gives you more to paint, all for being more competetive.

So, hypothetically speaking, would you actually like to field your models the way they are in terms of WYSIWYG (some models are aesthetically very pleasing, even if their wargear loadout is subpar; yet taking the knife and converting them would be a terrible shame) if you regularly played against an opponent who also did the same? I.e., for the sake of keeping model aesthetics, field them with the wargear they come with instead of fielding them according to their armylist unit entry's maximum level of pwnage?

I would if I could, but I'm in a dilemma.


Some examples would be fielding a unit of SM bikers or Chaos Chosen both taken from the Dark Vengeance kit exactly the way they are modelled, or fielding your old metal Sternguard with their Stormbolters, or a terminator Librarian with a force staff, or your AoBR Space Marine commander with sword and master-crafted bolter even if it is a terrible combo, as long as it looks good on the model.

I wouldn't do it -- too much work IMO -- more power to you if you go for it, though!

Think about magnets.

I sometimes wonder if this is part of a sneaky GW plan (but discard that idea, as that would imply GW plan anything) to change what the best wargear options are when Codexes are revamped - for example, my Dire Avenger Exarch's were equipped with Dual Catapults, as this was a cost-effective (and cool looking) upgrade in the 4th Ed book, but in the 6th Ed Codex, it's one of the worst options. Is this GW trying to get you to buy a new kit / model in order to build a tuned list whilst upholding WYSIWYG? Probably not, but they'll happily take your money.

Outside of tournaments, my opinion is to be reasonably lax with WYSIWYG. This means proxies for wargear and sometimes entire units - trying new units / setups is normally fun for both players, as long as it's easy enough to keep track of what is what (army lists with pictures of the models in question? just a suggestion).
That said, I'll generally aim to be WYSIWYG with my lists, sometimes at the expense of tuning or power-levels. I don't know why, it just makes me happy. If I've proxied a model setup for a few games, I'll probably buy one (or better, order specific bits from a bitz seller) to assemble and paint whilst leaving the old model alone (who knows, maybe new edition it'll be the best again!).

I’m a WYSWYG guy, so this is an issue I deal with on a regular basis. I will rarely take a knife to a mini to change things up. I does happen though. Back in 3rd, assault marines could have plasma pistols two to a squad for 5 points each. Needless to say, of my 10 assault marines 4 were packing. With the 5th ed changes to both points and numbers per 5/10 man squad, some arms got lopped off.

Also from 3rd I have a techmarine without the servo arm, but a hand built stormbolter. Options not available or viable today.

My stombolter/powersword captain will occasionally see the table, but I call it a relic blade. Not the best option, but we’ve got history.

TBH I thought everyone rebuilt their models, or bought new ones.

With each new model purchase in the last year or 2, I have taken to magnetising. Helps so much, and i honestly feel better playing a game knowing my sternguard have got the guns they have in the army list. I even magnetised the Heavy bolter/heavy flamer.

However saying that, some of my older models get proxied for fancier stuff, Such as my AOBR captain as a CM, TH, AA, SE etc, Most of my opponenets dont mind so much but I feel slightly guilty by doing something a bit more drastic like that. However I do plan to make a model that is wysiwyg for my CM.

Also take a look at this. I am sure you all know blue table painting but they recently did a few batreps where they just took a load of models, did a very quick list and used the models with the exact wargear on them. Even breaking restrictions such as so many speci al weapons per squad. Regardless it looked a tonne of fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p116VCuZDf4

Another one here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiCCfnpnnSg

I am one of those wierd guys. I went out and got anouther box or 2 of boys so I had enough to assemble every option for each of my units. Tanks I just magnitize so I can both show battle damage and change up I load outs when I like.
Proxies are ok for the ocational game but not all the time I like seeing properly modeled models and fully painted armies. It just adds somthing to the feel of the game.
And actually I tore off the arms of some 90 Orks when the last dex dropped and took away the Choppa. I have gotten smarter about it and went out and got my self 3 full mobs of Choppa boys to go with my 4 squads of Shoota boys so when the next dex drops I should be set either way.

I know a guy who sort of has that problem. His basilisk has the enclosed crew compartment and his favorite company commander has power axe and plasma pistol. He usually runs them that way rather than save the handful of points.

I hate doing so, and also feel compelled to be wysiwyg, so avoiding this problem is precisely why I magnetize. When 6e dropped and I reshuffled army lists, it was the work of mere moments to rearm plague marines and tacticals alike with plasma guns, and my Chapter Master with a power fist. Even in the worst case, of arming my librarian with a force axe, that was only because I had to dig up an axe bit and paint the arm blue.

Magnetization isn't just about immediate listbuilding flexibility, it's about future-proofing as well.

I magnetize the weapons & guns on my vehicles, imperial knight, Valkyrie, etc...

My troops all have their guns (which I can call lasguns or hellguns, or whatever if ever changed, etc...), but also holsters (that I can say have a plasma or bolt pistol in it), plus a knife on their belt (if I can claim +1 attack for some reason in the future), and my special weapons guy also has another special weapon to his back (my flamer dude is using his flamer, but I bought the melta bit and have it "strapped" on his back, for example. My grenade launcher has a plasmagun strapped to him...so I depending on who I game against, I claim what they are using before the game).... Swords are sheathed on my minis too, I can claim power or chain sword... for example.....grenades are on at least 1 mini per group, I can claim the others tossed hem already, and I can claim any grenade type before I game a certain foe....

So, you gotta be thinking about the WYSIWYG & the future for the minis.... (the holstered guns & swords still are within WYSIWYG, but give you flexability....)

As a Necron player This isn't much of a problem for most things- Warriors have no options, Immortals have two options that can't really be magnetized so I just have 10 of each, official Cryptek models all look the same regardless of gear due to the fact there's only one model with a grand total of one alternative off-hand in the catalog (I actually kitbashed my own varied Crypteks using Warrior bodies and Praetorian bits to address this issue), the underslung cannons on the Annihilation Barges lock into place naturally so they can be switched around without any need for cutting or gluing and the same goes for the Doomscythe/Nightscythe gear switch, while the Barge's tesla destructor can simply be taken off if I want to run a silver surfer. My kitbashed destroyer lord (screw that overpriced lame ass conversion kit, Praetorian bling and a Lychguard warscythe looks much better and came free with a kit I already bought!) has a magnetized Rezorb that fits the look so well that there's no real point in taking it off as people won't realize it's a rezorb unless told.

I did however mutilate my Ghost Ark a bit to allow me to fit the cannon into place without disassembling the front section but it looks fine (and I'll get to filing and painting the green stuff fixing the doodad in the tip eventually ), my Wraiths are locked into a three WC three vanilla set up since I wasn't thinking and glued their weapons in place (thankfully the guns I put on two of them came off without need for cutting or damage to the paintwork).

My biggest issue however is the fact that if I play WYSIWYG I will never be able to take certain options for my Lords or Overlords, as neither kit comes with anywhere near the number of weapon options they have listed (never mind the rest of the wargear). I'm playing a WYSIWYG tournament next week and the only way I can field a "naked" Overlord is if I use an oldschool Lord model I have as a "counts as"...

Im WYSIWYG player too (only exception are Kasrkin as veterans with carapce, their hellgun isnt wyswig) - so I had to use magnets. Because it would be crazy to buy two Hellhounds for case when I want multimelta and when HB Really, magnets are your friends.

But its OK if my opponents isnt that way...untill his proxies are sparse and sane. I have seen soda cans as dropods and thats the line I refuse to cross

Well I magnetize the weapons on my Tau battlesuit and tanks.

I sure as hell would not magnetize my 66 Tyranid Termagants to swap the weapons around, though.

I made them all identical and just say they are one type.

 Sir Arun wrote:
If you play by this rule and uphold it like something holy, you will invariably have to end up cutting, filing, pulling off and regluing different components and gadgets on your soldiers when either 40k transitions into a new edition, or a new codex is released.

In 20 years of playing this game, I can count on one hand the number of models that have needed anything more than a basic weapon swap. Unless an option has become no longer available, I generally just leave it as is and if I want to use a more 'optimal' option I'll just build another model rather than altering the old one. And in some cases, I've just left models with newly-illegal options as is... sooner or later, chances are those options will return.

If you are 'ruining' your models making basic weapon swaps, you're doing something seriously wrong.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
If you play by this rule and uphold it like something holy, you will invariably have to end up cutting, filing, pulling off and regluing different components and gadgets on your soldiers when either 40k transitions into a new edition, or a new codex is released.

In 20 years of playing this game, I can count on one hand the number of models that have needed anything more than a basic weapon swap. Unless an option has become no longer available, I generally just leave it as is and if I want to use a more 'optimal' option I'll just build another model rather than altering the old one. And in some cases, I've just left models with newly-illegal options as is... sooner or later, chances are those options will return.

If you are 'ruining' your models making basic weapon swaps, you're doing something seriously wrong.

While I agree with you, there are a couple of times where it could be problematic. My captain, for example, is a chunk of 3rd edition lead. Getting that power sword off of him is a non-trivial task. The other problem is people using techniques like OSL. If that plasma pistol is shedding light over the mini, you can’t just replace it with a bolt pistol without a total re-do.

But I’m mostly devil’s advocating nit picking here. I’m with you on taking the long term view. Eventually things come back into vogue.

I try to WYSIWYG as much as possible. I don't mind a proxy once in a while, but keep them limited and consistent.

All flamers are plasma guns, that sort of thing.

I just play Sisters. Problem solved. Meltaguns are Meltaguns. Flamers are Flamers. Need equal numbers of both. *shrug*

I keep mine as WYSIWYG as possible.
And it really is no work that isnt worth doing anyway.

I tinker and change my list far too much, so everything i have uses magnets.

I mean, each sgt for my old BA army has the options for: Lightning claws, power fist, hammer and shield, power sword, axe, lance and maul, combat shield.
Then plasma pistol, bolt pistol, bolter, inferno pistol, flame pistol.

I pretty much have every option available to me, and its due to having spare parts and making use of them.
It takes an hour or so to get all of these painted up ready for use, and as a plus, i can put them on a metal file to paint them due to the magnet lol.

So never have any issues except trying to find the hands/arms i want in a box that has too many of them in.

Kilkrazy wrote:magnets.

Yeah, or any of the non-magnetic ways to make swappable weapons.

Plus, this shouldn't apply to most models. I have hundreds of guardsmen, for example, and they've carried lasguns through every edition I've owned them. Likewise, my guardsmen with meltaguns have never suddenly found themselves in a codex where guardsmen can't take meltaguns.

Not THAT much changes, honestly, and most of the changes are with new stuff coming out, rather than scrapping or replacing old stuff. Not to say I don't have a few models I can't legally field anymore (a guard officer with a storm bolter, for example), but those make nice shelf ornaments.

Wysiwyg scarcely stands in my way, and when it does, there's a little something called proxying that makes up the difference. Anyone who won't let you proxy for a regular game of 40k probably isn't the kind of person worth playing with anyways.

I've pretty much magnetized everything I own by this point (down to the arms of my pathfinders. Heck, I might actually want to take the special weapon options with them some day).

It just feels immensely satisfying to have a force that actually has everything you say it has. Of course, getting it all painted is another matter entirely. If only "all black primer" was an acceptable armor pattern...

I try to build my units WYSIWYG but I honestly don't mind if my opponent wants to proxy some units. 40K is expensive and maybe my opponent can't afford that particular unit, or maybe he did get the unit but it is in production. Hell I'd let a guy proxy just to see how a unit works. I use a CD as a drop pod and my opponents never seem to mind, but my drop pod is also still being built, so take it as you will. I figure this is an expensive game and at the end of the day I just want to have fun and if the other guy is having fun then good stuff.
I'm looking into magnets for my next army once my Blood Angels hits 2000 points but for now I'd rather not because magnetizing seems like a royal pain in the arse.
One thing I cannot abide by though is unpainted models. I won't give a guy crap about it, but they drive me crazy. I cannot bring myself to put an unpainted model onto the table. Sure one here or there is fine, but I have seen lists where half the army is plastic grey. Blech... My local GW has a house rule that all models have "Preferred Enemy: unpainted" LOL! I seriously saw a guy who was playing WHF and fielded an ENTIRE UNPAINTED ARMY.

I fielded an unpainted army back in the day (back in the day being a year or so ago) since I care about playing more than I do about modeling.

Gradually my army turned from grey to black and from black to silver.

Personally the models come first, the list second. I build my minis for what whatever list I am building at the time, then live with it. I never swap weapons after I have built them, my minis take far too long and have far to much work go in to them just to risk it for a little more optimization. I also hate magnets on troops. Fine on tanks, walkers and other large minis where you can put big magnets on, but it annoys the hell out of me when my opponent is dropping limbs and guns every time he moves anything.

I just build every option as I go. I end up with a ton of extra marines but if I want a different option then I just grab a different guy.

I'm half-and-half. I try and keep things close to WYSIWYG, but stuff like tracking down 12 plasmaguns to outfit my company and platoon command squads is silly.

I used to play full WYSIWYG Necromunda back in the day! You'd be hacking weapons off every weekend as your juves became gangers etc.

Although nowadays I would probably take the time to build alternate models. (And I plan too as soon as I get the chance to return to Necromunda).

In 40k, we have always played mostly WYSIWYG for main weapons. (I think our only exception was with Chaos Marines, they used to come with Bolters, Bolt Pistol and Chainsword iirc, not sure if they still do, anyway only the bolter needed to be modeled on. Same with Space Marines and their bolt pistols, no need to have them on every model).

As for Wargear, we have never required it to be modeled. I play Tyranids but always hated the biomorphs and left them off (only the Ymgarl heads were ever used, and I just stuck those on regular genestealers)

Today’s xkcd seems on topic for this conversation:



WYSIWYG: This captain equipped with a powersword and strombolter has them.
WYSINWYG: It’s really chapter master with a relic blade, and he has melta bombs.
WYSITUTWYG: I’m proxing him as a Imperial Knight, OK?
WYSIHYD: I charge those scouts...

My list is always strictly WYSIWYG, and I'd like my opponent to do the same. I don't mind (limited and consistent) proxies that much for a competitive or quick 'pick-up' game, but for a good narrative game, WYSIWYG is of paramount importance.
40k is primarily a modelling hobby after all, so I see it as reasonable to expect people to actually put some work in making their models look the way they should look. Trying to build a list with limited resources is much more fun than just proxying everything imo. I just can't stand proxies.
If you want to vary the equipment of your models, magnetise them or give them extra holstered weapons (that is what I do and it looks cool).

I use WYSIWYG as much as much as possible. I don't mind an opponent putting in a proxie, but be consistent. If a flamer is a melta gun, then don't have any other flamers on the board. Don't make me work to remember your stuff. I came to play 40k, not memory.

Most of my stuff is WYSIWYG, but then Orks and DE don't have that many options. Where they do i build one squad sarge with each loadout, and spare heavy weapon guys..

My Daemons would need a lot of magnets, given most of their wargear is random each game, so i just make notes before the battle as to what each model has for upgrades