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I'm setting up fluff for a Sector (inspired by stormwell's thread) and had a particular idea I'm not sure about canon wise.

It is for a 'Market' World called Cob's Den situated handsomely to capitalise on the space lanes of the area. It is for all intents and purposes ruled by House Koba-Jaheem an ancient trading guild with immense influence in the Sector (the Governor's Palace is basically seen as cushy retirement for 'friendly' Administratum big wigs). The PDFs and Imperial Guard drawn from Cob's Den are the House's private enforcers, the Sipahi.

My idea is that the Sipahi also act as bodyguards for House merchant vessels and on world's where the guild is particularly powerful they have their own legations ruled de facto by Koba-Jaheem and garrisoned by the Sipahi. So its part British East India Company part Robocop's OCP.

My question, is this sort of set up tolerated in the Imperium?

Private armies? All over the damned place. Mercenaries, bounty hunters, hired thugs, "corporate" security forces. These are all things that exist.

Nobody would bat an eyelid at it.

Actually yeah that's fair enough.

How about fleet wise, they are space merchants and probably have armed galleons. Planetary Governments are barred from owning warp capability ships. As the House grows in power when does it come to that problem from the other side, being warp merchants who are increasingly militarised and have de facto sovereignty?

On many planets the PDF are the private army of the planetary governor, or made up of the combined army's of the ruling houses. As long as the planet makes it's tithes and dosn't brake impirial law no one cares at all.

 Jape wrote:

How about fleet wise, they are space merchants and probably have armed galleons. Planetary Governments are barred from owning warp capability ships. As the House grows in power when does it come to that problem from the other side, being warp merchants who are increasingly militarised and have de facto sovereignty?

For your DIY force, any ships they may have, could either be part of the Merchant or Civil Fleet. There are a number of different Charters available to ships of the Merchant Fleet, ranging from (the most coveted) Hereditary Free Charter which allows a Captain to name anyone as his successor and to trade 'freely' in accordance with his Charter with few obligations to the Imperial authorities and then you have a Fleet Charter, whereby a Captain is appointed by the authorities to command a specific vessel on a fixed route. He can also be deprived of command just as easily.

The Civil Fleet is comprised of privately owned vessels. They operate along licensed routes and typically a license will be given to those who bid the most for it. The Imperium typically gives license along difficult routes and captains are appointed by the fleet owner who is basically the captain's boss.

So long as they remain with the bounds of Imperial Law they should be fine. Keep in mind that ships are very difficult and expensive to build/acquire so your DIY fleet may well have a very capable force but never-the-less be considered insignificant to the Imperium.

 Jape wrote:
... The PDFs and Imperial Guard drawn from Cob's Den are the House's private enforcers, the Sipahi.

My idea is that the Sipahi also act as bodyguards for House merchant vessels and on world's where the guild is particularly powerful they have their own legations ruled de facto by Koba-Jaheem and garrisoned by the Sipahi. So its part British East India Company part Robocop's OCP.

My question, is this sort of set up tolerated in the Imperium?

Private armies are easy, they are all over the place, and should be totally fine.

One question though; is the guild supposed to still control the Sipahi once they've been levied into the IG? If so that could be a bit tricky. Once in the IG they would be part of the IG's command structure, and shipped off to a warzone in short order. Does not mean there is not some kind of remaining connection, or influence, but it would be some kind of special circumstance.

Gogsnik wrote:

So long as they remain with the bounds of Imperial Law they should be fine. Keep in mind that ships are very difficult and expensive to build/acquire so your DIY fleet may well have a very capable force but never-the-less be considered insignificant to the Imperium.

Thanks for the info. Well they are meant to be ridiculously wealthy, having controlled the lion share of trade in the sector and beyond for millennia so merchant ships armed or otherwise are not a massive concern for them.

I had a plot idea that due to increased piracy the Navy seems is struggling to deal with the House gradually begin to militarise their fleet. When said fleet and the Sipahi end up attacking another Imperial world due to a domestic revolution severing trade links its raise a few eyebrows. Then rumours start to appear the House is attempting to purchase Navy grade ships, mainly of obsolete and minor classes, prompting stern words from the Administratum. Is this a believable escalation (over centuries) or too much cheese do you think? I was thinking they might try to purchase obsolete destroyers from the Mechanicum, having built up a relationship due to the House's Rogue Trader past (hunting down STCs for them etc.), leading to inter-departmental politicking.

Pendix wrote:One question though; is the guild supposed to still control the Sipahi once they've been levied into the IG? If so that could be a bit tricky. Once in the IG they would be part of the IG's command structure, and shipped off to a warzone in short order. Does not mean there is not some kind of remaining connection, or influence, but it would be some kind of special circumstance.

Oh no, I imagine them as professional slave soldiers (like the Ottoman Janissary) of the House and when they join the IG they are effectively being 'sold' to new masters.

 Jape wrote:


I had a plot idea...

To me that sounds completely plausible, especially if the current master is very ambitious although to my mind most such personages would be. Obviously they want to expand their influence to increase wealth like all big businesses and naturally they will want proper warships to accomplish those ends. Of course ships can be unregistered and/or pirates. Would such a merchant house be beyond 'losing' a ship or two in order to achieve some contract or acquire some piece of technology et cetera? Probably not. You could build a very detailed and expansive story around the machinations of such a house and it's dealings, both legal and illicit, within the Imperium.

Oh no, I imagine them as professional slave soldiers (like the Ottoman Janissary) of the House and when they join the IG they are effectively being 'sold' to new masters.

I have very heavily used the Janissaries for the background of my own 'Imperial Guard' regiment except they aren't exactly Imperial Guard. Their world was lost to human space until relatively recently and was given to a Space Marine Chapter when it was rediscovered. Now, as an Astartes Homeworld they are not subject to the Tithe.

It could well be that your Sipahi might well be beyond the Tithe too. They could be part of the Merchant House's Charter, they could be part of an exempted profession or assuming your Merchant House is subject to any kind of Tithing at all (let's face it, if every single human could be conscripted, what's to stop your Merchant House's lord from being taken et cetera and that doesn't happen realistically, many people are beyond conscription for various reasons) then they could be providing something else to the Administratum. This could be simply the use of the fleet to transport goods and the like, hence their Charter covers the need for security forces. Or they could be buying out any claim on their men with goods and commodities.

 Gogsnik wrote:
To me that sounds completely plausible, especially if the current master is very ambitious although to my mind most such personages would be. Obviously they want to expand their influence to increase wealth like all big businesses and naturally they will want proper warships to accomplish those ends. Of course ships can be unregistered and/or pirates. Would such a merchant house be beyond 'losing' a ship or two in order to achieve some contract or acquire some piece of technology et cetera? Probably not. You could build a very detailed and expansive story around the machinations of such a house and it's dealings, both legal and illicit, within the Imperium.

You're a fountain of ideas Gogsnik, thank you. TBH the House aren't even meant to be the focus of my fluff, merely a bit of interesting background detail. Now that you've pumped ideas into my brain I'm thinking otherwise. The idea of a first-person narrative from the Magnificent Bastard master's POV in a fourth-wall breaking House of Cards/Richard III style has popped into my brain, I'm quite tempted to give it a go.

Sticking to the original intent of simple background fluff you've still given a lot of food for thought. Koba-Jaheem could be very tasty.

I have very heavily used the Janissaries for the background of my own 'Imperial Guard' regiment except they aren't exactly Imperial Guard. Their world was lost to human space until relatively recently and was given to a Space Marine Chapter when it was rediscovered. Now, as an Astartes Homeworld they are not subject to the Tithe.

It could well be that your Sipahi might well be beyond the Tithe too. They could be part of the Merchant House's Charter, they could be part of an exempted profession or assuming your Merchant House is subject to any kind of Tithing at all (let's face it, if every single human could be conscripted, what's to stop your Merchant House's lord from being taken et cetera and that doesn't happen realistically, many people are beyond conscription for various reasons) then they could be providing something else to the Administratum. This could be simply the use of the fleet to transport goods and the like, hence their Charter covers the need for security forces. Or they could be buying out any claim on their men with goods and commodities.

Again interesting. You make a good point, I imagine the House could easily fulfill its tithe through other means. Also keeping the Sipahi firmly in House hands reinforces the 'state within a state' theme. I've written fluff up for several major worlds, some of them providing many countless millions of Guardsmen. Could even have the House's exempt status be a point of tension with these worlds, while their kids head off to die the House and their bodyguards stay at home, stripping the Sector of its wealth.

 Jape wrote:
The idea of a first-person narrative from the Magnificent Bastard master's POV in a fourth-wall breaking House of Cards/Richard III style has popped into my brain, I'm quite tempted to give it a go.

Excellent idea, it would be very enjoyable I think to have an F.U. character in 40K. Utterly ghastly and hateful and yet, deliciously fun.

Again interesting. You make a good point, I imagine the House could easily fulfill its tithe through other means. Also keeping the Sipahi firmly in House hands reinforces the 'state within a state' theme. I've written fluff up for several major worlds, some of them providing many countless millions of Guardsmen. Could even have the House's exempt status be a point of tension with these worlds, while their kids head off to die the House and their bodyguards stay at home, stripping the Sector of its wealth.

Again, great imagery and very much more accurate I would think, of how the 40K universe is generally getting on. I recall (somewhat vaguely) a true account of a British solider in the First World War being wounded and dragging himself through No Man's Land until he eventually reached an abandoned German trench. When he looked closely, the bags of cement the Germans had used were made in England. I would imagine that for most people in the Imperium wars are always distant and unknown, after all most Guardsmen never return to their homeworlds so it is reasonable that, as well as leaving forever, they would almost certainly lose all contact with their families. Then you would have the privileged elite never being touched at all and making vast, vast fortunes in the process - a bit like real life then.

Exactly! I think I started writing about the House because (for obvious reasons in a war game universe) the "Public Sector" of the Imperium always dominates over the "Private". If the State is a fundamentalist, communazi bureaucratic hell hole, then things like the Guilds are hardly going to be paragons of free enterprise. There's a a lot of room to blend tropes of medieval mercantilism, cyberpunk corporations, the East India Company 'private state' and even modern neoliberal ideas that have seen things like Private Military Contractors come to the fore.

BTW for the Sipahi I was imaging them to be very bizarre, kitted out by the House with cybernetic augments, psychological conditioning and drug/gland implants. This ensures they are ultra-loyal and truly terrifying in battle. This not only gets across the fist in a velvet glove idea (no doubt the House is very respected in high society) but shows their wealth. It also adds a bit of the John Blanche weirdness that is often missing from 40k these days. Something vaguely like this:

So, for as much as the "Toe the line or it's HERESY!!!!1!" exists, it's somewhat of a fringe position. The imperium is so ludicrously, ungovernably vast that anyone who isn't an enemy is a friend.

Sure there are some members of the eccesiasty and the black templars, and adjudicators and inquisitors roaming around, but really, so long as you're pointing those autoguns at orks and demons and not at space marines or other guardsmen, and you'll get a free pass most of the time.

Plus, spending time trying to suppress millions of tiny private armies when the galaxy itself is getting devoured by tyranids/the warp... well...

 Jape wrote:
Actually yeah that's fair enough.

How about fleet wise, they are space merchants and probably have armed galleons. Planetary Governments are barred from owning warp capability ships. As the House grows in power when does it come to that problem from the other side, being warp merchants who are increasingly militarised and have de facto sovereignty?

You have to be licensed to have a Warp capable ship, and the warp drive remains the property of the Mechanicus, but yes there are privately owned space vessels.

Rogue Traders are one such class of individuals, they can basically do whatever they want(including trade with Xenos) and can own their own ships. They often have their own little mini empires at the fringes or beyond the borders of the Imperium. Other individuals might have Warp capable ships as well, legally or illegally.

But aside from a Rogue Trader, you'll almost never have these private vessels be comparable to any Navy vessel. They'd be way outgunned by any true military vessel.

Even most Rogue Trader vessels cannot stand up to a vessel of the Imperial Navy, mainly because a Rogue Trader's first-and-foremost concern is the shipping of goods from Points A to B... and decks given over to macrocannons and laser batteries are not decks given over to cargo holds.

True, but the most important Traders will have fleets of merchant ships and will be able to afford a few warships to escort his cargo. But yeah, it will be a rare occurrence for those ships to be that powerful. And they'd never occur in numbers to stand up to a fleet of warships.

Private military forcers (or merc forces) would actually probably be useful for the Imperium because a.) it allows potential resolution of problems without them having to waste the effort of getting involved (let the locals sort it out) and b.) it provides another valuable pool of recruitment for well-equipped, experienced troops that the Munitorum does not need to train or equip at their own expense. In fact it would not surprise me if the 'private' military forces across the galaxy operate on terms not unlike the civil/merchant fleets - 'you're free to do as you like, unless we need you.' - I expect there is a provision explicitly in whatever rules/deals/laws/charters dictate such things (The administratum is sneaky like that.)

I think there was even mention of 'letters of marque' from the Imperial Navy as well, which I imagine would do similar for the Navy (naval forces that the Navy does not have to pay for to maintain, but they can command when a crisis comes up. sounds like a win-win for the Imperium.)

 Psienesis wrote:
Even most Rogue Trader vessels cannot stand up to a vessel of the Imperial Navy, mainly because a Rogue Trader's first-and-foremost concern is the shipping of goods from Points A to B... and decks given over to macrocannons and laser batteries are not decks given over to cargo holds.

the first concern of most true rogue traders is to head out of Imperial space and "negotiate" with the locals. If anything RT vessels need to be more heavily armed than Navy vessels because they know they will have no other support.

It's actually very few RTs who deal with Xenos, or even fly out to the fringes. There's plenty of places in the Imperium where an RT can become fabulously wealthy trading goods from one planet to another.

Got a Hive World with a chronic water shortage? Well, as an RT, maybe you know a back-door Warp Route to Planet Iceball two sub-sectors over, who have so much pure H2O it's literally falling from the sky. Buy snow from these Eskimos, fly it over to the Hive World, sell it for 10 credits a sip!

And that's to say nothing of the absolutely massive amount of space traffic that happens regularly.

I mean, in order to have a planet that is literally nothing more than one giant city, or having an entire planet that is literally one giant factory, the amount of goods and materiel you have to import is ENORMOUS.

40k has ultra-specialized economies that are a satire on modern globalization. Globalization only works because there is trade. Likewise, that 1 trillion person baby-making planet needs to have millions of ships coming and going every day or else it would completely fall apart.

 Ailaros wrote:
And that's to say nothing of the absolutely massive amount of space traffic that happens regularly.

I mean, in order to have a planet that is literally nothing more than one giant city, or having an entire planet that is literally one giant factory, the amount of goods and materiel you have to import is ENORMOUS.

40k has ultra-specialized economies that are a satire on modern globalization. Globalization only works because there is trade. Likewise, that 1 trillion person baby-making planet needs to have millions of ships coming and going every day or else it would completely fall apart.

Aye, if a single guild had a controlling share of this trade they could be dangerously powerful.

I could see such a house supplying bodyguards to the sector/system govenor, or flat out bribery to be left alone. Or supplying a certain % of the tithe he has to come up with.

Also what about navigators? would the house have to have a deal with the navigators to fly their ships?

Navigators dont' fly ships, they just tell the pilot how to get from A to B.

But yes, a good working relationship with the Navis Nobilitae is a must for anyone who wishes to travel through the Warp without resorting to sorcery.

I was thinking they would be a are very established House, their legendary founder being Terran born. Perhaps pushing it to one historic leader ending up being Speaker for the Chartist Captains as a High Lord. As such they were closely linked with the Navigators thanks to historic ties to the 'capital'.

Here a few bits i have thought of:

There are very few reasons as to why the imperium would say no to a PMC especially if they are protecting valuable imperial assets such as shipping lanes.

The Imperium would more than likely put a "your country needs you" clause in the contract basically stating that "if we say fight you fight" they would be idiots not too.

One house would never control an entire industry. For 2 reasons mainly:
1. If a house controlled a GALAXY spanning industry they would have the resources to topple the imperium (if they are worried 10k astartes can do it they why cant several billion humans?)
2. even in nowadays we have international and continental bodies that regulate the markets to ensure that consumers are entitled to a fair trade by stopping one company from monopolising the industry. you can say that the imperium doesnt care about the consumers and whatever else but they will because they are infact a consumer.

The house needs to find a happy balance. too big and they risk drawing too much untoward attention from a grimdark galaxy that would love to do nothing more that see them burn. Too small and you risk


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Losing profit

Being a "very established" house is doable, but it also serves as its own sort of "checks and balances". Such a House has its fame and prestige to consider, and such things like a scandal involving the Ecclesiarchy or the Inquisition could make for a very uncomfortable Emperor's Feast Day dinner for whatever heir/heiress was involved.

Especially if said heir/heiress is getting into things that might damage its reputation amongst other Houses, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Navis Nobilitae, or the Inquisition, all of which are organizations who give not one, single feth how much money you think you have (they have more) nor how many strings you can pull (funny how many strings those Inquisitorial, or Mechanicus, scissors can cut). These are organizations that only the very foolish seek to anger.

 Psienesis wrote:
Being a "very established" house is doable, but it also serves as its own sort of "checks and balances".

Some very good points there.

Still, it's probably quite doable for a governor to keep all his "good" troops if he can provide enough lower-grade troops instead. Rich enough, powerful enough? Maybe he can press indebted worlds to give him troops that he can send off as his own tithe. Or just command up extra PDF from his own world if they want their old mothers to have a place to live. No one important will care as long as the governor keeps his world working and doesn't make any other world unstable.

MrBlackledge: Thanks for the input. Don't worry I've never intended them to be galaxy spanning, merely dominating a sector with tendrils going out further afield. The idea for having links to Terra is not to make them all powerful merely very established in an 'old money' way, the links are very historical and mostly just trumpeted for prestige. They're not above the Inquisition or any 'central' authority but their money can buy powerful friends in the Sector, perhaps getting a chummy Cardinal to declare a business rival a heretic, or getting Sector Command to give undue attention to a planet overly hostile to the House's influence. On troops as Gogsnik mentioned many worlds don't provide troops in their tithe, the House however can provide ample transportation which is equally valuable to the gargantuan Imperial war machine. The idea is their private army has developed organically over time long after the ink has dried on their Charter.

Psienesis: Totally agree. However the Imperium's organisations are far from centralised save perhaps the Inquisition (and then definitely only in theory). If the House walks softly and works with the established powers of the Sector I see them being given decent leeway there. However as you say the 'big battalions' of Imperial authority are very powerful and if local representatives call their mates in it could get very messy. Its that kind of tight rope politicking I'm interested in.

Spetulhu: Good point, nothing stopping it.

---

Another question, its been mentioned certain Imperial worlds use slaves (though I've only read of mutant slaves), is their an interplanetary slave trade?

 Jape wrote:
Another question, its been mentioned certain Imperial worlds use slaves, is their an interplanetary slave trade?

Some worlds have what amounts to slavery (and the AdMech uses slaves to grow Geneseed when founding a new thousand-man Marine Chapter) but I guess it's not Imperium-wide. Individual worlds might have it, and if enough in the sector practice slavery the house will ofc be in on it. Still, I don't really see bulk slave trade as a thing - with warp travel being what it is it's probably only the highest-grade courtesans and specialist slaves that would be sold off-planet.

It's not against the Imperial Code as long as the slaves serve humans (that serve the Empire). The Administratum and the Munitorium don't care why these 20 million men were enlisted to the Imperial Guard, just that they are sent and properly used.

To be honest in some ways I'd rather be IG that a house slave. at least that way when i get talked down too its because everyone else is not because someone thinks they are superior