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So I'm fielding a 5 man Scout Sniper squad and originally had them kitted out with Camo Cloaks (which would total 10 points) but am now wondering whether I should spend these points on another Scout Sniper instead. Of course, he'd be 2 points costlier, but I think adding 1 more T4 wound to the 5 man squadron but making them lose their stealth special rule is better?

Depends where they will be. If they could get a 2+ or 3+ cover save from the cloaks, I say go with the cloaks. If not, go with the additional scout. Depends on your terrain.

Both options are viable. Extra scout is better damage output and survivability vs ignore-cover stuff and in mellee - but mellee probably won't matter much.

Cammo cloaks are awesome if you go to ground - so you can get 2+ cover which is huge to remain on a point when needed. Or when u've bolstered a ruin and can have 2+ even without going to ground. 5 wounds with 3+ cover and 6 wounds with 4+ is not really that much different. But 5 wounds in 2+ cover is way better than 6 in 3+.

 koooaei wrote:
Both options are viable. Extra scout is better damage output and survivability vs ignore-cover stuff and in mellee - but mellee probably won't matter much.

Cammo cloaks are awesome if you go to ground - so you can get 2+ cover which is huge to remain on a point when needed.

I know this is has nothing to do with the question, but I've had 5 sniper scouts beat out 10 vanguard vets before. It was hilariously improbable.

Back to the question though, if you are using them to cap a point, those cloaks are a definite take. If not, I would go as far as suggesting that instead you take a missile launcher or heavy bolter, both have the same range (ML has 12" more) and will work well against whatever your snipers are going to be shooting at. The standard is the ML, but the heavy bolter is pretty good too.

I'd say without question the cloaks - they can dramatically improve your survivability against enemy shooting, and can also synergise very well in certain situations such as a nightfight, bolstered ruins, or going to ground.

A 2+ cover save is very difficult to dislodge for most armies, and for a unit as cheap and non-threatening as sniper scouts many won't bother, giving you a much better shot at holding an objective.

 Hedgehog wrote:
I'd say without question the cloaks - they can dramatically improve your survivability against enemy shooting, and can also synergise very well in certain situations such as a nightfight, bolstered ruins, or going to ground.

A 2+ cover save is very difficult to dislodge for most armies, and for a unit as cheap and non-threatening as sniper scouts many won't bother, giving you a much better shot at holding an objective.

Yes, but the question is, would they even bother if they had a 3+ cover save? Either the enemy is going to try to kill them or not. If the scouts are on an objective, going to be shot at, there is cover, you are relying on them to keep the objective, and you think there will only be a moderate amount of incoming fire, then get the cloaks.

Otherwise an extra cover save point is hardly worth 1/5th the unit cost.

Don't get me wrong, I take camo cloaks, but that is because I take Telion and put them behind an aegis defense line. They get 2+ cover save from telion and the cloaks as well as the quad gun gets precision fire from telion. With such an asset, the 2+ cover save is worth it. But think of it like this.

For just a normal scout sniper squad though, I would either opt for the extra scout or go with a ML/HB.

I’m a fan of the cloaks.

Their primary job is to hold an objective. Lately for me, it’s one behind an ADL. And they eat fire because they are manning the quad gun. I don’t have time to be going to ground, I’ve got things to shoot. So the boost to their cover save is welcome, and you can’t fortify an ADL.

My Ultramarine traditions also come into play here. Squads should either be full 10 man squads, or 5 man combat squads. Other numbers are the work of chaos. 6 I believe is Slanesh.

The problem with scouts is their BS3 so sinking points into a heavy weapon seems a bit risky, especially when they're easily putting wounds on MCs with their sniper rifles already (and its pretty daft to target a tank with the ML as that makes all sniper rifles near useless and you also only have a 50% chance of hitting it)

I don't play with an ADL, so this might factor into the equation, so I have no Quadgun to use for my BS4 sarge. And I play BT, so no chance of getting Telion for me unless I ally

In a sniper team, I'd much rather trade a marine out for a camo cloak. And as a tiny sidenote, the Cloak doesn't grant Stealth. It grants a +1 cover save (or a 6+ if you didn't already have one). The difference is that by not calling it Stealth, it will still STACK with Stealth if you get it by some other means. (Night Fighting, Telion, etc.)

 Sir Arun wrote:
The problem with scouts is their BS3 so sinking points into a heavy weapon seems a bit risky, especially when they're easily putting wounds on MCs with their sniper rifles anyway (and its pretty daft to target a tank with the ML as that makes all sniper rifles near useless and you also only have a 50% chance of hitting it)

It isn't as bad as you make it sound. The difference is 16%. The heavy bolter is actually 20% cheaper than that of a normal one, so you are actually coming out positive there and the scouts are one of the few units that can actually utilize the missile launcher since they will be stationary. Whatever you are shooting at with the sniper rifles can always benefit from also shooting at with a ML or HB.

I vote for the cloaks.

I'd go cloaks also, if all these other reasons havnt convinced you, i mean look at the model with them. Way cooler

Ehh sniper scouts always come with cloaks, its not like not giving them the upgrade would require you to knife the cloaks off for wysiwyg purposes lol. I just imagine they should be painted in a plain color if I always plan to use them without the cloaks rather than in a camo pattern if I do use them.

Actually the reason for me making this thread is because next to the default 5 guys from the plastic kit



I managed to snag this OOP model off ebay and obviously wanted him to breathe some more variety into the squad:



Besides, when they're behind an ADL, going to ground with cloaks won't give them a better cover save than going to ground without.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Besides, when they're behind an ADL, going to ground with cloaks won't give them a better cover save than going to ground without.

Well that changes everything if they are behind an ADL. Give them cloaks, give them telion, have them man an icarus lascannon or quad gun and you get to use it with precision fire. Its sooooo good. People wrap special weapons in so much useless models that by the time you get to what you need to kill its done its damage. Taking out that one special weapon or model that gives the squad a boost is very valuable.

If that is too expensive or not your cup of tea, back to general cloaks:

Cloaks only help in a very small section, especially for scouts.
1. You are in ruins or a fortification (or similar 4+ cover) and you are not being shot by a weapon that ignores cover.
2. For some ungodly reason your scouts are being shot with ap4 or lower weapons (ap3 or lower should be focusing on space marines or better, and ap4 weapons are very rare, most have high strength and are better used for AV or high T) or by some other weapon that ignores armor (again, why is it being wasted on your scouts).

Pretty much every other time cloaks do not help you. Even if one of these is true, the question still remains:
"is +1 to your cover save worth it? Or would you rather have an extra sniper scout, which comes with another wound, another weapon, etc."

Here is some math that somebody should check:

So you have a 4+ cover natural and you get:
BS3 has a 50% chance to hit
S4 has a 50% chance to wound
4+ save has a 50% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 12.5% chance to wound

3+ save has a 33% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 8.25% chance to wound

48: Number of shots it takes to finish off 6 scouts in 4+ cover
60: Number of shots it takes to finish off 5 scouts with 4+ cover with cloaks
32-36 & 40-60: The number of shots where having the extra 3+ vs 4+ coversave is beneficial (where you will have more models with the cloaks than with the extra man),

Now for 3+ cover vs 2+ cloaked cover
3+ save has a .33% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 8.25% chance to wound

2+ save has a 16% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 4% chance to wound

72: Number of shots it takes to finish off 6 scouts in 3+ cover
125: Number of shots it takes to finish off 5 scouts in 3+ cover with cloaks
24-24 & 36-125: The number of shots where having the extra 2+ vs 3+ coversave is beneficial (where you will have more models with the cloaks than with the extra man).

SO! What else should be considered?
1. IF you are in 4+ or better cover: Until being shot at and until the "beneficial numbers" are reached, you will output more fire with the extra man than with cloaks.
2. In CC, having the extra model is better than cloaks (which do nothing).
3. When shot by weapons that ignore cover, cloaks do nothing.

When should one take cloaks:
ONLY when:
1. They will be in 4+ or 3+ cover
2. If they were not to take cloaks, they would not be in close combat.
3. They will be shot at.
4. You value long term survival over short term firepower.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Besides, when they're behind an ADL, going to ground with cloaks won't give them a better cover save than going to ground without.

Well that changes everything if they are behind an ADL. Give them cloaks, give them telion, have them man an icarus lascannon or quad gun and you get to use it with precision fire. Its sooooo good. People wrap special weapons in so much useless models that by the time you get to what you need to kill its done its damage. Taking out that one special weapon or model that gives the squad a boost is very valuable.

If that is too expensive or not your cup of tea, back to general cloaks:

Cloaks only help in a very small section, especially for scouts.
1. You are in ruins or a fortification (or similar 4+ cover) and you are not being shot by a weapon that ignores cover.
2. For some ungodly reason your scouts are being shot with ap4 or lower weapons (ap3 or lower should be focusing on space marines or better, and ap4 weapons are very rare, most have high strength and are better used for AV or high T) or by some other weapon that ignores armor (again, why is it being wasted on your scouts).

Pretty much every other time cloaks do not help you. Even if one of these is true, the question still remains:
"is +1 to your cover save worth it? Or would you rather have an extra sniper scout, which comes with another wound, another weapon, etc."

Here is some math that somebody should check:

So you have a 4+ cover natural and you get:
BS3 has a 50% chance to hit
S4 has a 50% chance to wound
4+ save has a 50% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 12.5% chance to wound

3+ save has a 33% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 8.25% chance to wound

48: Number of shots it takes to finish off 6 scouts in 4+ cover
60: Number of shots it takes to finish off 5 scouts with 4+ cover with cloaks
32-36 & 40-60: The number of shots where having the extra 3+ vs 4+ coversave is beneficial (where you will have more models with the cloaks than with the extra man),

Now for 3+ cover vs 2+ cloaked cover
3+ save has a .33% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 8.25% chance to wound

2+ save has a 16% chance to fail save
So every shot has a 4% chance to wound

72: Number of shots it takes to finish off 6 scouts in 3+ cover
125: Number of shots it takes to finish off 5 scouts in 3+ cover with cloaks
24-24 & 36-125: The number of shots where having the extra 2+ vs 3+ coversave is beneficial (where you will have more models with the cloaks than with the extra man).

SO! What else should be considered?
1. IF you are in 4+ or better cover: Until being shot at and until the "beneficial numbers" are reached, you will output more fire with the extra man than with cloaks.
2. In CC, having the extra model is better than cloaks (which do nothing).
3. When shot by weapons that ignore cover, cloaks do nothing.

When should one take cloaks:
ONLY when:
1. They will be in 4+ or 3+ cover
2. If they were not to take cloaks, they would not be in close combat.
3. They will be shot at.
4. You value long term survival over short term firepower.

Your list of “why to take cloaks” meshes very closely to why I take sniper scouts in the first place. And you math seems right, but I’m not even halfway through my fist cup of coffee, so take that with a grain of salt.

The sniper rifles are nice to have, and let the scouts contribute something to the battle, but one more is not going to meaningfully affect things. They are mostly there for the scouts to have something to do while they focus on their primary job of staying alive until the end of the game. That said, they can surprise you. Back in 3rd I had a squad one-shot The Nightbringer, but that kind of results are non-typical. (funny as heck though )

People go on about how much stuff ignores cover these days. While that is true, not everything does. And if Tau are using markerlights to blow your scouts out of some ruins, those are lights not used elsewhere. Same thing with baleflamers. If the heldrake is burning up scouts, odds are the game is already decided. Admittedly, the leading cause of death of my scouts is heavy flamers. While that number is skewed by the fact that my best friend plays SoB, they’ve also been roasted by dreadnoughts and deathwing.

While AP4 is relatively uncommon, there is a chunk of things out there with it. ACs might generally be tasked with AV duties, they will erase a scout squad without cover. The oft maligned HB can also do ugly things to them, and sometimes it’s hard to put together a list that doesn’t have a few in it, they are suck everywhere.