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The general consensus on the codex reviews and tactica's I've found is that assault squads aren't competitive. But would they have a place in a 1000 point Iron Hands mech list?

I just love the look of assault squads on foot, so I'd be running them in a rhino.

I use assault squads with infantry spams in an Ultramarine company. I use devastator, tactical and assault marines with an aegis defence line. Anything that assaults my gun line is preemptively assaulted by my assault marines. Although that list didn't get me any wins (2 games) it was definitely fun and we pretty much ended up even because his heavy units just had so much to shoot at. Every marine you lose is just 14 points plus the odd special or heavy weapon but every time your missile launchers or plasma cannons fire back they get hit hard.

Assault marines are nice when you have somewhere to hide them. If u've got a landraider with someone mellee-oriented inside - hide asm behind a landraider on your way there. Otherwise, i see no real reason to take asm over grav/melta bikers.
If you were playing chaos, u'd probably have an option to deepstrike raptors with 2 meltas+combi-melta instead of termicide squads.

Another option is to get a minsquad with flamers in a droppod.

I don't see why you would. You are paying 15 extra points for everyone to trade their bolter for a chainsword compared to a tactical squad. If you run a 6 man tac squad (use 14 of those 15 saved points on the extra man) with the Sgt having a chainsword you get 7 close combat attacks, 13 on the charge (tac marines have bolt pistols too, so they can shoot and assault just like the assault marines). While the assault squad gets 10 attacks, 15 on the charge.

Getting 2 extra attacks on the charge and 3 extra in subsequent turns is not worth:
1. Losing Scoring
2. Having one less model
3. Losing boltguns

Losing one model is big if they are going to be in assault.

And if you plan to take 10 assault marines in a rhino in a 1000 point game, it is an even worse idea.
Only use I can see with assault marines is:
1. Dropping them from a pod with 3 plasma pistols and meltabombs.
2. Dropping them from a pod with 2 flamers and meltabombs.
3. 5 man unit with jump pack, 2 flamers, meltabombs.
You can add a powerfist to any of the three options if that is your thing, then you will want your sergeant to be a vet of course.

I take raptors when I play games under 1000 points. They can be very effective in assaults, tank busting, going after warlords, etc.

The thing they don't do is score. Assault marines have the same problem. The thing I would say here is take one, and only one, and know what they are going to do before the game starts.

5-strong ams squad in a droppod/rhino: - 85 pts

5-strong tactical squad in a droppod/rhino - 105 pts

I do. Their my favorite look on marines. I usually use a couple of small squads to harass things in the back field and possibly get line breaker. It's only five guys so if he has to waste a shooting turn on them then it spares something else and maybe give me a shot at some side armor.

The last two games I played, were 750 and 1000pts. Had a 5/7-man squad, they did really well. Just don't make a frontal assault, use them to flank the enemy and hide behind LoS blocking terrain as much as possible.

No. I tried running them in 1000pt games because I like the imagery of them.

However they aren't especially survivable in 6th edition, and aren't really that good in CC either. They struggle to kill other marines, let alone any other CC orientated unit. I don't really see a reasonable use for them unless you and your opponent are playing weak armies.

 koooaei wrote:
5-strong ams squad in a droppod/rhino: - 85 pts

5-strong tactical squad in a droppod/rhino - 105 pts

Yeah, if you aren't running jump packs and RG, I think this is the best option. Bring dual flamers and hunt light infantry.

Jangustus wrote:
[assault marines] aren't really that good in CC either. They struggle to kill other marines, let alone any other CC orientated unit. I don't really see a reasonable use for them unless you and your opponent are playing weak armies.

Exactly. What the hell do they do? They kill weak units. But guess what, that is what your tacticals and scouts do. What the are you facing that you need more weak hits, and in CC nonetheless! If you are facing something that you need more weak hits than your tacticals, scouts, and anything else with a weapon with similar stats to a boltgun, then there is something wrong.

A 5 man assault squad with 2 flamers in a drop pod is 95 points. At 100 points, a TFC is a better buy, but if you don't have an extra one, you probably DO have the extra marines for the assault squad, and you probably won't be disappointed by them.

It’s not like including assault marines is going to cause you to spontaneously combust. The rules might have made assault more difficult, but it can still work.

Would you win more games by spamming the good units? Yes.
Would you have more fun playing with units you like? Also: yes.

There is a line we all need to draw. How much fun am I willing to sacrifice for victory? Loosing all the time is not fun. But unless you live in a hyper competitive area, there is often a lot of wiggle room for how lean your list needs to be. When I build a list, I usually pick one fun unit. It could be a unit/model I like the way it looks, or some dusty old warrior who longs for the battlefield, not the shelf, who’s return is overdue. They might be sub-par, but you can shore up their weaknesses, or take units that have synergy with their strengths.

And sometimes doing the unexpected has some advantages. But win or loose, I have fun. And that’s why we are here, right?

Amended: I was out of line, my apologies.

 Ryan_A wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:


There is a line we all need to draw. How much fun am I willing to sacrifice for victory?

And sometimes doing the unexpected has some advantages. But win or loose, I have fun. And that’s why we are here, right?

First of all why the feth is anyone bringing up "fun" in a tactics thread? If I have fun fielding nothing but CCW/pistol scouts and have them sit in the middle of the board all game getting shot at, fine. But if I come to a tactics sub-forum and start discussing things, and somebody just goes into a thread where people are discussing tactics on a unit and goes "do it if you have fun" then they are trolling.

Stop trolling.

This is a tactics sub-forum. You discuss tactics here, not talk about opinions of how to have fun with an army.

"But win or loose, I have fun. And that’s why we are here, right?"
No, we are HERE to discuss tactics. So you are incorrect. Please find another sub-forum for discussing how to have fun and I will gladly join you there to talk about having fun in this game.

Wow. I think that’s the first time I’ve been accused of trolling. And I think that level of vitriol is a little uncalled for.

There are a lot of different way to play this game. Not everyone is making tournament caliber lists, or playing at that level. And that’s a good thing. I think far to many people are advocating the hyper competitive play style, and our hobby is poorer because of it. What I see in this thread is someone saying “There is a unit I like, can I take it?” and asking for validation of his choice. The min/maxer would answer “No” and he would be correct in the context of someone wanting a 100% win ratio in a competitive environment. For what I suspect the answer is for the vast majority of the community, the answer is “Yes, but acknowledge and accept their flaws”

Assault marines are not useless, but they are a little sub par. They are a bully unit. Their job is to go pick on things weaker then them and take their lunch money. Does you list need that? Could it be done better by other units?

This is the tactics forum. We can civilly discuss all things at all sorts of levels. Some of the most useless advice I see here when people ask about a unit is “it sucks, don’t take it” While that might be applicable to the person giving the advice, it is rarely useful to the person receiving it. I give advice from someone who enjoys the game, and would like to see others do so as well. List building is always a compromise between fun and efficiency. If not, every discussion in this section should be “trash your army and play FOTM, everything else is a waste of time”

I despise that mindset. This is a hobby. If we loose sight of the fun, they why are we here? It is a core aspect of everything we do, from army selection, to painting, to tabletop.

Assault squads are awful. Just awful.

Do you like Assault squads?

If you like assault squads, run assault squads.

Drop pod.
Salamanders tactics.
2 flamers.
1 combi flamer.
105pts for 3 st4 ap5 flamer templates that reroll to wound and can be placed pretty accurately (due to 6" disembark). That is lethal for its points! I pay 125pts for 2 st3 handflamers and 1 flamer doing the same thing for BA and they don't even reroll to wound!

I still like assault marines.

Tacticals cant take two flamers. What do people think of when they look at a tactical squuad? The weapons choices and what is on the sergeant. Because they are what matters. It is taken as a given that an SM list will get the bolters in somewhere, its more difficult to get the other stuff in the list in numbers tom be effective.

I would love to be able to take two special weapons in a tactical squad, I certainly wouldn't do so all the time, and they wouldn't necessarily be flamers either but flamers are good, flamers work, flamers are reliable. And that is even without Salamanders rules.

As it has been outfitted some editions ago my assault squad has double flamer, vet sgt with shield and fist and the jetpack chaplain. It is not what it was, but still can do quite a bit especially when pared down to a minimum squad with two flamers. Yes I keep the jump packs on.

Amended: I was out of line. my apologies.

The main problem with Assault Marines is that they're restricted to Flamers and Plasma Pistols when it comes to special weapons. If they could take Plasma and Melta like other jump units I'm sure they'd be much more popular. I use 2 units of 5x Raptors with 2x Meltaguns in my Chaos list and they never disappoint, yet the Assault Marine unit is a bit underwhelming.

This is a bit of a shame as I have a unit of Assault Marines ready to be assembled. I'm planning on using them with 2x Flamers and a Jump Chaplain; not highly competitive but it'll be fun to try.

 Valkyrie wrote:
The main problem with Assault Marines is that they're restricted to Flamers and Plasma Pistols when it comes to special weapons. If they could take Plasma and Melta like other jump units I'm sure they'd be much more popular. I use 2 units of 5x Raptors with 2x Meltaguns in my Chaos list and they never disappoint, yet the Assault Marine unit is a bit underwhelming.

This is a bit of a shame as I have a unit of Assault Marines ready to be assembled. I'm planning on using them with 2x Flamers and a Jump Chaplain; not highly competitive but it'll be fun to try.

I’d love melta guns as well. Of course, then they’d be fighting with the rest of the FA slot for fast melta delivery. What I’d also love is for the plasma pistols to be viable. 15 points a pop is highway robbery. The 5 ppm they were back in 3rd/4th might have been a little low, but 15 is right out.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
The main problem with Assault Marines is that they're restricted to Flamers and Plasma Pistols when it comes to special weapons. If they could take Plasma and Melta like other jump units I'm sure they'd be much more popular. I use 2 units of 5x Raptors with 2x Meltaguns in my Chaos list and they never disappoint, yet the Assault Marine unit is a bit underwhelming.

This is a bit of a shame as I have a unit of Assault Marines ready to be assembled. I'm planning on using them with 2x Flamers and a Jump Chaplain; not highly competitive but it'll be fun to try.

I’d love melta guns as well. Of course, then they’d be fighting with the rest of the FA slot for fast melta delivery. What I’d also love is for the plasma pistols to be viable. 15 points a pop is highway robbery. The 5 ppm they were back in 3rd/4th might have been a little low, but 15 is right out.

Plasma pistols are for BS5, and due to sloppy games design are costed as if every taker has BS5.

Frankly if assault troops could have a melta and a flamer I would think it a down side, yes you get a lot of versatility but two of a single special weapon is better. Double melta would be best, but double flamer is very good, it can really put on the hurt and the jet packs allow you to get close enough to use them. I am tempted by Poly Rangers loadout with a extra combi-flamer, because flamers are usually one shot weapons anyway, afterwards you are normally in assault one way or another.

Assault squads are great for 2 reasons:

1) The only space marine unit that can spam 3 flamers (one of which is a combi) for relatively cheap. The only other units I can think of that can do this are Assault Centurions (too costly and too immobile) and Sternguard veterans.


2) Being able to get an extremely cheap Rhino. 5 Assault Marines cost 15 more points than 5 tacticals and are non-scoring. However, for these 15 points you can essentially make them twice as mobile as regular tacticals (jump packs) - and arguably a space marine is more survivable in melee than at range - OR you can get a Drop Pod or Rhino, thus making it 20 points cheaper than buying it conventionally.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ryan_A wrote:
I don't see why you would. You are paying 15 extra points for everyone to trade their bolter for a chainsword compared to a tactical squad. If you run a 6 man tac squad (use 14 of those 15 saved points on the extra man) with the Sgt having a chainsword you get 7 close combat attacks, 13 on the charge (tac marines have bolt pistols too, so they can shoot and assault just like the assault marines). While the assault squad gets 10 attacks, 15 on the charge.

Getting 2 extra attacks on the charge and 3 extra in subsequent turns is not worth:
1. Losing Scoring
2. Having one less model
3. Losing boltguns

Losing one model is big if they are going to be in assault.

And if you plan to take 10 assault marines in a rhino in a 1000 point game, it is an even worse idea.

The big mistake you are making is not realizing what the actual purpose of assault marines is. You see, apart from inflicting damage to a target squad just like regular tacticals do, the assault marines do one additional thing: they prevent that squad from shooting.

Thus, this target squad could be one toting an anti-tank weapon that they were aiming at the 11 side armor of one of your own Space Marine tanks, or it could be a bunch of enemy Grav Centurions or XV-88Battlesuits who would have made short work of your tacticals in a ranged firefight while assault marines actually have a solid chance of tying them up for the rest of the game.

Bottom line is, when I know I will be playing against a shooty army (Tau, Necrons, IG, maybe Eldar) you'd want to consider taking assault marines over tacticals always. In fact, tacticals are so generic and predictable that almost every opponent basically has them in his mind when he builds an anti-space marine list, so you'll bet they will be the easiest to fall.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Assault squads are great for 2 reasons:

1) The only space marine unit that can spam 3 flamers (one of which is a combi) for relatively cheap. The only other units I can think of that can do this are Assault Centurions (too costly and too immobile) and Sternguard veterans.


2) Being able to get an extremely cheap Rhino. 5 Assault Marines cost 15 more points than 5 tacticals and are non-scoring. However, for these 15 points you can essentially make them twice as mobile as regular tacticals (jump packs) - and arguably a space marine is more survivable in melee than at range - OR you can get a Drop Pod or Rhino, thus making it 20 points cheaper than buying it conventionally.

Assault marine sergeants can only pick from the melee weapon chart, so no combi-flamer for him unfortunately. But you can add LotD and bike squads to your list of units that can get 3xflamers (one being a combi) LotD is a bit overkill, due to them ignoring cover anyway, but bikes work fine if you need more burning goodness.

Curse the bike squad, upstaging the assault marines again. <shakes fist>

yeah, my bad. I guess bikes can work as the flamer delivery system too, especially with all the buffs they got in 6th and the additional points reduction they received in the new sm codex.

in fact this debate should be: "are assault marines still worth taking compared to bikers".

Of course the assault marines do have the close combat advantage, and any SM unit operating in or around the enemy's deployment zone should try to get into cc so as to not get shot up, which thus puts bikers at a disadvantage, as their shooting is far more effective than their melee



To the OP:

I just realized that taking flamers on assault marines is actually counter-productive, as this leads to them killing models from a unit and making their assault less likely (models are removed from front). And a bunch of assault marines stuck outside cc in the enemy deployment zone is a unit of dead assault marines. And losing 95 points of your own guys after having had the chance to fry an enemy squad with 2 flamers means, at best, you'll have killed 95 points worth of their guys and are thus breaking even.

However, if you have Assault Marines lying around, then a better use for them would be to field them as Vanguard Veterans. Okay, so the vanguard veterans really did receive a nerf from last codex to the current one, in that they have been moved from the FA slot to the Elites slot and also can no longer charge after dropping in, but IMO that is the only real penalty. They have gone down in points compared to the previous edition, so for 2 more points per model you get an extra attack for each guy, which itself is good, but in addition to that you also gain the special rule of being able to do a disordered charge without losing your assault bonus attacks. What really makes them worth taking though is the fact that you can give them any type of power weapon you want, in any combination, and also any amount. Oh and you can spam stormshields on them, too.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Assault squads are great for 2 reasons:

1) The only space marine unit that can spam 3 flamers (one of which is a combi) for relatively cheap. The only other units I can think of that can do this are Assault Centurions (too costly and too immobile) and Sternguard veterans.

And Command squads.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Bottom line is, when I know I will be playing against a shooty army (Tau, Necrons, IG, maybe Eldar) you'd want to consider taking assault marines over tacticals always. In fact, tacticals are so generic and predictable that almost every opponent basically has them in his mind when he builds an anti-space marine list, so you'll bet they will be the easiest to fall.

I am not sure about that, you get more out of Tacticals and they are very versatile. The only predictable thing about them is that they are an MEq target, and every army has to account for MEq if it is to win.

 Sir Arun wrote:

I just realized that taking flamers on assault marines is actually counter-productive, as this leads to them killing models from a unit and making their assault less likely (models are removed from front). And a bunch of assault marines stuck outside cc in the enemy deployment zone is a unit of dead assault marines. And losing 95 points of your own guys after having had the chance to fry an enemy squad with 2 flamers means, at best, you'll have killed 95 points worth of their guys and are thus breaking even.

Flamer casualties are taken from under the template, this will mean some casualties from the front but not necessarily all, in fact its easier to string out casualties due to the large teardrop, some models close to the marines should live.

 Sir Arun wrote:

However, if you have Assault Marines lying around, then a better use for them would be to field them as Vanguard Veterans. Okay, so the vanguard veterans really did receive a nerf from last codex to the current one, in that they have been moved from the FA slot to the Elites slot and also can no longer charge after dropping in, but IMO that is the only real penalty. They have gone down in points compared to the previous edition, so for 2 more points per model you get an extra attack for each guy, which itself is good, but in addition to that you also gain the special rule of being able to do a disordered charge without losing your assault bonus attacks. What really makes them worth taking though is the fact that you can give them any type of power weapon you want, in any combination, and also any amount. Oh and you can spam stormshields on them, too.

I agree with this. Frankly I see no reason to use Vanguard vet models at all. Veteran marines shouldnt have to bling out, some of them might be regular hard guys instead. Vanguard offer a lot and are cheaper than before, be careful you dont overtool them though.

You guys expect Assault Marines to do more than they should and will be able to do. Other than the (fairly effective) 5x Man w/ 2 Flamers in a Pod usage of assault marines, I find then fairly good at being a counter assault unit, a distraction unit, assault saturation unit, and a unit that can hold up units in combat. a 5x Man w/ 2 Flamers flying around is only 95 points. A 10x Man w/ 2 Flamers and a Power Weapon can also be usable.

I play DA and rarely field an assault squad. Typically, I go for the ravenwing bikers due to the TL boltguns, T5, jink with very nice mobility. Wonder what the Math Hammer peeps think about 6 bikers vs 10 assault marines.

Worth taking for fun, just don't expect them to do a lot, especially as they don't score. They won't even reliably beat a tactical squad fast enough to make it worthwhile charging them. I guess the best use is cheap flamers in a pod if you desperately need that extra anti-horde firepower.

 grrrfranky wrote:
Worth taking for fun, just don't expect them to do a lot, especially as they don't score. They won't even reliably beat a tactical squad fast enough to make it worthwhile charging them. I guess the best use is cheap flamers in a pod if you desperately need that extra anti-horde firepower.

Or if you need the extra drop pod to give you an odd number of them. (Then you grab 5man with 2 flamers)