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Vets are still trash. Yeah, your lascannon goes from BS 4+ to BS 3+, but you're paying 25% more points for 33% more firepower on one shot and losing obsec to get it. That's not a good deal on a unit whose primary purpose is going to be sitting on an objective all game. And throwing away money on a transport just makes them worse. "Move move move" gives you more movement distance than a transport unless you're burning CP on the specialist detachment, and you can buy another unit for the cost of the transport. This is especially true for that GL squad, where you're paying a significant amount of points to haul around a unit with bad guns that doesn't even care much about getting up close.

Or, instead of taking mediocre vet squads you could just put command squads in those transports and get four melta/plasma guns vs. three disembarking with your one-shot stratagem. Or you could take deep striking storm troopers with plasma and out-gun the vets 95% of the time.

 Peregrine wrote:
Vets are still trash. Yeah, your lascannon goes from BS 4+ to BS 3+, but you're paying 25% more points for 33% more firepower on one shot and losing obsec to get it. That's not a good deal on a unit whose primary purpose is going to be sitting on an objective all game. And throwing away money on a transport just makes them worse. "Move move move" gives you more movement distance than a transport unless you're burning CP on the specialist detachment, and you can buy another unit for the cost of the transport. This is especially true for that GL squad, where you're paying a significant amount of points to haul around a unit with bad guns that doesn't even care much about getting up close.

Or, instead of taking mediocre vet squads you could just put command squads in those transports and get four melta/plasma guns vs. three disembarking with your one-shot stratagem. Or you could take deep striking storm troopers with plasma and out-gun the vets 95% of the time.

All good points.

Out of interest, how do you think Command Squads compare with Special Weapon Squads?

 Peregrine wrote:
Vets are still trash. Yeah, your lascannon goes from BS 4+ to BS 3+, but you're paying 25% more points for 33% more firepower on one shot and losing obsec to get it. That's not a good deal on a unit whose primary purpose is going to be sitting on an objective all game. And throwing away money on a transport just makes them worse. "Move move move" gives you more movement distance than a transport unless you're burning CP on the specialist detachment, and you can buy another unit for the cost of the transport. This is especially true for that GL squad, where you're paying a significant amount of points to haul around a unit with bad guns that doesn't even care much about getting up close.

Or, instead of taking mediocre vet squads you could just put command squads in those transports and get four melta/plasma guns vs. three disembarking with your one-shot stratagem. Or you could take deep striking storm troopers with plasma and out-gun the vets 95% of the time.

16.7% more in cost depending how you look at it. Squad cost rises from 60 to 70 with the lascannon.

Elysian deep strike is also nice at 51 points for 3 plasma, but it's a suicide squad and not available until turn 2.

 Polonius wrote:
So, a few thoughts on IG post CA:

It's good to be cadia/gunline. I think that while the overall drops in points weren't huge, they were targeted at things that make Cadia better. Cheaper veterans gives us a solid BS3+ lascannon platform, while cheaper armored sentinels and multiple points drops in heavy weapons allows cadia to fill out the fast attack in a brigade for peanuts.

On this point, I've been thinking a lot about sentinels now with the new price drop. They finally feel about right for the first time...ever I think. I think we're going to start seeing these a lot more, I'm pretty enamored of the armoured sentinel with the CA changes. They're not the most firepower efficient of platforms, but they're enough wounds individually to be worth turning real AT guns on, and they've got enough such that point for point they're among some of the most resilient.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
So, a few thoughts on IG post CA:

It's good to be cadia/gunline. I think that while the overall drops in points weren't huge, they were targeted at things that make Cadia better. Cheaper veterans gives us a solid BS3+ lascannon platform, while cheaper armored sentinels and multiple points drops in heavy weapons allows cadia to fill out the fast attack in a brigade for peanuts.

On this point, I've been thinking a lot about sentinels now with the new price drop. They finally feel about right for the first time...ever I think. I think we're going to start seeing these a lot more, I'm pretty enamored of the armoured sentinel with the CA changes. They're not the most firepower efficient of platforms, but they're enough wounds individually to be worth turning real AT guns on, and they've got enough such that point for point they're among some of the most resilient.

Yup. If they draw anti-tank fire then it means my russes aren't getting hit so I'm cool with it. They're tough enough that they'll require some actual anti-tank to put down, and if you ignore them while focusing on heavier targets they'll be able to at least do enough damage to make their points back over a game. I bought 3 myself just now

 Horst wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
So, a few thoughts on IG post CA:

It's good to be cadia/gunline. I think that while the overall drops in points weren't huge, they were targeted at things that make Cadia better. Cheaper veterans gives us a solid BS3+ lascannon platform, while cheaper armored sentinels and multiple points drops in heavy weapons allows cadia to fill out the fast attack in a brigade for peanuts.

On this point, I've been thinking a lot about sentinels now with the new price drop. They finally feel about right for the first time...ever I think. I think we're going to start seeing these a lot more, I'm pretty enamored of the armoured sentinel with the CA changes. They're not the most firepower efficient of platforms, but they're enough wounds individually to be worth turning real AT guns on, and they've got enough such that point for point they're among some of the most resilient.

Yup. If they draw anti-tank fire then it means my russes aren't getting hit so I'm cool with it. They're tough enough that they'll require some actual anti-tank to put down, and if you ignore them while focusing on heavier targets they'll be able to at least do enough damage to make their points back over a game. I bought 3 myself just now

At 45 points with a multi laser they will be ignored and Russ tanks will get shot.

At 50 points with a plasma cannon it's a tough choice where to put the dakka but most players will lean towards the Russ tanks especially if they are tank commanders.

LC ones will be even more likely to draw fire, but not if there is a relic weapon tank commander.

IMO sentinels can easily present a target priority dilemma, unless they have a multi laser or HB then they will be ignored.

 schadenfreude wrote:
At 45 points with a multi laser they will be ignored and Russ tanks will get shot.

At 50 points with a plasma cannon it's a tough choice where to put the dakka but most players will lean towards the Russ tanks especially if they are tank commanders.

LC ones will be even more likely to draw fire, but not if there is a relic weapon tank commander.

IMO sentinels can easily present a target priority dilemma, unless they have a multi laser or HB then they will be ignored.

35 and 40pts for multilaser and plasma, respectively. Basically there is little reason to not bring a brigade now, unless you are doing some sort of armour only or dual doctrine force. Sentinels used to be a brigade tax, now they are cheap enough to be a worthwhile take. I like lascannons myself, although I think that autocannons are interesting. Plasma is a huge risk without emergency vents, so I would only take them on Cadians with their rerolls.

 Trickstick wrote:
Basically there is little reason to not bring a brigade now, unless you are doing some sort of armour only or dual doctrine force.

Or if you're worried about kill points, and don't want to give up even more easy ones. Or if you want to go first. Adding +3 units in the form of fragile and poorly-armed Sentinels is not always a great idea.

Armoured sentinels are a lot more tough than they are killy. Any good tactics we can use to force the opponent to deal with them before turning their attention to squishier (point for point) basilisk and tank commanders?

 DoomMouse wrote:
Armoured sentinels are a lot more tough than they are killy. Any good tactics we can use to force the opponent to deal with them before turning their attention to squishier (point for point) basilisk and tank commanders?

"Hope my opponent is poorly skilled and doesn't understand target priority". Though if you have that strategy working you're probably winning anyway no matter what you do.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Armoured sentinels are a lot more tough than they are killy. Any good tactics we can use to force the opponent to deal with them before turning their attention to squishier (point for point) basilisk and tank commanders?

"Hope my opponent is poorly skilled and doesn't understand target priority". Though if you have that strategy working you're probably winning anyway no matter what you do.

Well they work as a screening unit.

 Trickstick wrote:
Well they work as a screening unit.

I'm not sold. Smaller footprint than infantry squads, and no particular abilities that benefit screening beyond what any generic model is capable of.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Well they work as a screening unit.

I'm not sold. Smaller footprint than infantry squads, and no particular abilities that benefit screening beyond what any generic model is capable of.

Harder to remove than an infantry squad, unless you fire proper AT guns at them. Those are guns that should be firing at tanks, so that helps. They are effectively a 9" anti-deepstrike aura, and can gain cover fairly easily. When comparing them to infantry squads, they are a very similar cost. However, unlike infantry, they stay at 100% effectiveness until completely dead. Then you have possible brigade CP gains on top. Sometimes the smaller footprint can be beneficial, such as when you want to hide. They are slightly faster than infantry too, although only Tallarn can really take advantage of this.

They have some decent advantages, and with a 10-20% price drop are definitely worth considering.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Well they work as a screening unit.

I'm not sold. Smaller footprint than infantry squads, and no particular abilities that benefit screening beyond what any generic model is capable of.

Can't help but agree with this, I really want to like them, but a tough unit that's easily locked up and surrounded can be as much a liability as a benefit. Particularly when they aren't going to contest objectives against infantry. But they want to be on the front line to draw fire and screen for your tanks, - so they're a bit of a random unit.

I really like durable units, so want to find a use for these guys but not seeing it at the moment aside from being a cheap brigade FA filler.

Heavy flamer scout senitnels are only 44 (?) points. They can absolutely be useful in a lot of situations. They can be harassing back field by turn 2, if they are ignored. They can hide out of LoS very easily.

This is in addition to filling out your brigade.

 Horst wrote:
Cadian Plasma Cannon Sentinels are looking pretty good to me. 40 points for a T6, 6 wound plasma cannon with a 3+ save? Nice.

Have it blow up on Turn one and you'll change your mind.

Resipsa131 wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Cadian Plasma Cannon Sentinels are looking pretty good to me. 40 points for a T6, 6 wound plasma cannon with a 3+ save? Nice.

Have it blow up on Turn one and you'll change your mind.

They're re-rolling ones to hit though, so the chance to blow up is 1/36.... That is an acceptable margin of risk to me on a 40 point model.

Reading Overlapping Fields of Fire rule though, and I'm curious now. It says it adds +1 to hit.... so does that mean I can never roll a 1 when firing on a target I used that stratagem on? Or does the "1 always fails" rule come into play here?

 Horst wrote:


Reading Overlapping Fields of Fire rule though, and I'm curious now. It says it adds +1 to hit.... so does that mean I can never roll a 1 when firing on a target I used that stratagem on? Or does the "1 always fails" rule come into play here?

A roll of 1 always fails, but since the end result of the roll with the modifier would be a 2 it wouldnt explode.

 Horst wrote:
They're re-rolling ones to hit though, so the chance to blow up is 1/36.... That is an acceptable margin of risk to me on a 40 point model.

Per shot, which increases the risk. Of course, you should only overcharge when needed. No point in doing it against everything.

 DoomMouse wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:
Well they work as a screening unit.

I'm not sold. Smaller footprint than infantry squads, and no particular abilities that benefit screening beyond what any generic model is capable of.

Can't help but agree with this, I really want to like them, but a tough unit that's easily locked up and surrounded can be as much a liability as a benefit. Particularly when they aren't going to contest objectives against infantry. But they want to be on the front line to draw fire and screen for your tanks, - so they're a bit of a random unit.

I really like durable units, so want to find a use for these guys but not seeing it at the moment aside from being a cheap brigade FA filler.

They could make good cyclops bait.

30 boys with a jump could charge one to tie it up and stay safe in CC.

Roll up a cyclops and bow up your own sentinel plus some boys. Any survivors will no longer be in CC.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
They're re-rolling ones to hit though, so the chance to blow up is 1/36.... That is an acceptable margin of risk to me on a 40 point model.

Per shot, which increases the risk. Of course, you should only overcharge when needed. No point in doing it against everything.

Apparently since Overlapping Fields of Fire adds +1 to hit, you can never roll a 1, since the minimum you can actually role is 1+1, so the play with Cadian Plasma Cannon Sentinels would be to simply fire at something big and nasty with a Tank Commander, wound it, use Overlapping Fields of Fire, and have all the sentinels unload on it with plasma cannons, re-rolling 1's, hitting on 3+, and no risk of overheating. Sounds nice.

I think the key to making Sentinels work will be taking decent sized units of them. A unit of 3 with plasma cannons is 120pts. While not stellar firepower for that investment, its not awful either. Set them up out front, make them a tempting target that an opponent will want to or have to remove (either because of the PC's or because they want to move through where the sentinels are) and wait for them to chew through 18 wounds worth of Sentinel while hiding your other T6/7 vehicles that only have 10 or 11 wounds and degrade but hit harder.


Doing some theorycrafting, in a 2k brigade you could fit sixty infantry, some characters, ten chimera-hulled tanks, and nine sentinels. That sounds aweseome.

When they were still over costed, I would rock 2 or 3 lascannon armored sentinels in my Catachan army. I would keep 1xTC and a leman russ in the rear with some infantry and Harker. The armored sentinels helped push out deep strikers and managed to soak up a tremendous amount of firepower. T6 with 3+ armor is nearly immune to trivial amounts of firepower. Honestly, if they ever hit with their lascannons they were MVPs.

What does everyone think of the Banesword, now that the gap between it and the Shadowsword has risen to 40 pts with Chapter Approved? Still garbage?

EDIT:
Not in the context of killing other LOWs. The Shadowsword is still the fantastic-est even at 410. I just mean in the context of "regular" 40k, where it may be compelled to deal with other heavies but also has other targets like Defilers, etc.

The Banesword gets ~3.5 hits per turn, wounding vehicles on a 3+, so 2.31 wounds, each doing ~4.5 damage (estimating), so 10.395 damage. So it will seriously damage but not kill many main battle tanks.

The Shadowsword averages 6 shots, or 3 hits, 2 wounds, each doing ~7 damage, for 14 damage. So on average it should kill most main battle tanks.

The Shadowsword then does 34% more damage for 10.8% more cost. I'd still stick with the Shadowsword, because it has additional rules and utility vs superheavies.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
What does everyone think of the Banesword, now that the gap between it and the Shadowsword has risen to 40 pts with Chapter Approved? Still garbage?

I just don't know, it's difficult. I quite like the Banesword for its 3d6 shots, which would make it better at killing heavy infantry. I really want to like the Stormsword, as it used to be my go-to tank. That 10" blast marker was hilarious to use. However, for some reason it went to 2d6 this edition. It just doesn't make sense. If it was 4d6, which you would think a 10" blast would have been, I would take it much more.

The only other alternative is the Banehammer. You get the what is effectively a 3d6 relic battlecannon which halves movement. Add to that a 25 transport capacity and 10 shot firing deck and it is probably the best of the transport versions. 8 Bullgryn and a Priest, or 7 and a host of other characters, is a pretty strong counter charge unit.

 DoomMouse wrote:
Armoured sentinels are a lot more tough than they are killy. Any good tactics we can use to force the opponent to deal with them before turning their attention to squishier (point for point) basilisk and tank commanders?

They're absurdly tough, but they aren't that bad at killing things. If the enemy doesn't want to fight them then you're still pumping out autocannons or lascannons that will seriously threaten vehicles in bulk.

novembermike wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Armoured sentinels are a lot more tough than they are killy. Any good tactics we can use to force the opponent to deal with them before turning their attention to squishier (point for point) basilisk and tank commanders?

They're absurdly tough, but they aren't that bad at killing things. If the enemy doesn't want to fight them then you're still pumping out autocannons or lascannons that will seriously threaten vehicles in bulk.

they also make great hostages for enemy assualt units to declare a multi charge on, kill a unit of infantry and then consolidate around the Sentinel ensuring they can’t get shot in your shooting phase Then they kill the Sentinel in your fight phase and charge something else.

Resipsa131 wrote:
they also make great hostages for enemy assualt units to declare a multi charge on, kill a unit of infantry and then consolidate around the Sentinel ensuring they can’t get shot in your shooting phase Then they kill the Sentinel in your fight phase and charge something else.

Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

I think the main value in Armored Sentinels will be to sit on either side of my flank, ~8" out from my tanks, to push deepstrikers out. I can put an infantry screen directly in front of the tanks, and not have to worry about wasting infantry on the flanks, because I need them on the frontlines. The sentinels have the range to fire at least somewhat effectively from sitting far back, so I think they'll act as anti-deep strike pickets pretty well.

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.