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 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

OK, so exactly how I was gonna use them anyway

The Guardsman are my front line, the sentinels are just there to hold the flanks against deepstrikers.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

Yeah, it's definitely a real thing but if it happens a lot with a 48" range 8" move model then it might be time to examine your decision making.

I'd argue against using sentinels to tank fire for Russe's. For the investment of a few sentinels you're most of the way to another LRBT which does more for you in the long run

novembermike wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

Yeah, it's definitely a real thing but if it happens a lot with a 48" range 8" move model then it might be time to examine your decision making.

Problem is that if they're just hovering at the back, they'll be last on the target priority list and just ignored all game. Around 10 autocannon hits or 4 lascannon hits for 400pts is pretty bad value firepower. Their strong toughness will not matter if the opponent doesn't have to deal with them. Not saying they're bad at all, but I'd struggle to justify picking them as for support over, say, basilisks, manticores or tank commanders.

 DoomMouse wrote:

novembermike wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

Yeah, it's definitely a real thing but if it happens a lot with a 48" range 8" move model then it might be time to examine your decision making.

Problem is that if they're just hovering at the back, they'll be last on the target priority list and just ignored all game. Around 10 autocannon hits or 4 lascannon hits for 400pts is pretty bad value firepower. Their strong toughness will not matter if the opponent doesn't have to deal with them. Not saying they're bad at all, but I'd struggle to justify picking them as for support over, say, basilisks, manticores or tank commanders.

3 sentinels is comparable in cost to a basilisk, So ~15 autocannon hits (6 shots per sentinel, 5 turns, 50% hit rate) vs ~10 Basilisk hits (~4 shots per turn, 5 turns, 50% hit rate). Its not THAT much worse firepower wise, and the sentinels are far more durable for receiving shots, and can spread out and claim objectives. Also consider that they are a required choice if doing a Brigade, so you also really get +2 CP by picking it, so I think they're a pretty legit choice.

Also consider that if you're cadian and not moving you can take Plasma Cannons instead, which are more or less as good as Basilisk shots when overcharged, and they just have more firepower by any reasonable measure than a Basilisk.

They also look really cool.

Yeah - also 3 HKM give them some burst damage.

 DoomMouse wrote:


Problem is that if they're just hovering at the back, they'll be last on the target priority list and just ignored all game. Around 10 autocannon hits or 4 lascannon hits for 400pts is pretty bad value firepower. Their strong toughness will not matter if the opponent doesn't have to deal with them. Not saying they're bad at all, but I'd struggle to justify picking them as for support over, say, basilisks, manticores or tank commanders.

It's a little closer to 10.5 autocannon hits for 360 points, assuming they're Cadian and standing still. That's about what Helverins get, although admittedly the Helverin gets an extra point of damage per hit and can fire on the move. The point is less that you get super good shooting though, it's more that you have a bunch of moderately efficient heavy firepower that nobody in their right mind wants to shoot at. A tank commander is a pinata, the enemy has a lot of fun when they shoot it. It's efficient but you can't rely on it being there the second or third turn. Sentinels are a lot less fun to attack.

novembermike wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

Yeah, it's definitely a real thing but if it happens a lot with a 48" range 8" move model then it might be time to examine your decision making.

48 inches seems like a lot until Kraken genestealers double advance for a 20 inch move, then move again 20 inches with the hive commander ability and then charge because they can advance and charge an average of 8 inches and then pilein 3 inches and consolidate to wrap up your Sentinel for a total of 54inches of moment. Then you can’t shoot them unless you’re Valhallan (which in that case flame on)

Resipsa131 wrote:

novembermike wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

Yeah, it's definitely a real thing but if it happens a lot with a 48" range 8" move model then it might be time to examine your decision making.

48 inches seems like a lot until Kraken genestealers double advance for a 20 inch move, then move again 20 inches with the hive commander ability and then charge because they can advance and charge an average of 8 inches and then pilein 3 inches and consolidate to wrap up your Sentinel for a total of 54inches of moment. Then you can’t shoot them unless you’re Valhallan (which in that case flame on)

This is why we have guardsmen - to stop shenanigans like this.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:

novembermike wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

Yeah, it's definitely a real thing but if it happens a lot with a 48" range 8" move model then it might be time to examine your decision making.

48 inches seems like a lot until Kraken genestealers double advance for a 20 inch move, then move again 20 inches with the hive commander ability and then charge because they can advance and charge an average of 8 inches and then pilein 3 inches and consolidate to wrap up your Sentinel for a total of 54inches of moment. Then you can’t shoot them unless you’re Valhallan (which in that case flame on)

This is why we have guardsmen - to stop shenanigans like this.

Genestealers blow through them, consolidate towards your Sentinel and then they can enact the double fight strategum even if they didn’t charge the sentinel to pilein let your Sentinel fight back and then consolidate and take your Sentinel hostage. It’s a ton of CP but if you put a Sentinel or character for that matter near your front lines this is going to happen to you.

I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop posting about this but I find Sentinels to be a liability for Astra Militarium

Resipsa131 wrote:
Genestealers blow through them, consolidate towards your Sentinel and then they can enact the double fight strategum even if they didn’t charge the sentinel to pilein let your Sentinel fight back and then consolidate and take your Sentinel hostage. It’s a ton of CP but if you put a Sentinel or character for that matter near your front lines this is going to happen to you.

I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop posting about this but I find Sentinels to be a liability for Astra Militarium

I mean I agree we're way off on a tangent, but can't you just keep your guardsmen out ~4 inches or so in front of your sentinels and other tanks, so they can't consolidate further?

 Horst wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Genestealers blow through them, consolidate towards your Sentinel and then they can enact the double fight strategum even if they didn’t charge the sentinel to pilein let your Sentinel fight back and then consolidate and take your Sentinel hostage. It’s a ton of CP but if you put a Sentinel or character for that matter near your front lines this is going to happen to you.

I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop posting about this but I find Sentinels to be a liability for Astra Militarium

I mean I agree we're way off on a tangent, but can't you just keep your guardsmen out ~4 inches or so in front of your sentinels and other tanks, so they can't consolidate further?

Yes - you can - and you do. Plus if you go first there are no geensteelers.

sentinel chainswords are 2pts with S5 ap-1, sentinels only get 1 attack (at WS4+) but it'd give you some capability to hit back in melee if your sentinels got taken hostage.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Horst wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Genestealers blow through them, consolidate towards your Sentinel and then they can enact the double fight strategum even if they didn’t charge the sentinel to pilein let your Sentinel fight back and then consolidate and take your Sentinel hostage. It’s a ton of CP but if you put a Sentinel or character for that matter near your front lines this is going to happen to you.

I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop posting about this but I find Sentinels to be a liability for Astra Militarium

I mean I agree we're way off on a tangent, but can't you just keep your guardsmen out ~4 inches or so in front of your sentinels and other tanks, so they can't consolidate further?

Yes - you can - and you do. Plus if you go first there are no geensteelers.

Maybe but that's only because Basilisks and Mortars are really good at killing stuff out of LOS. You cant always protect a unit by keeping them 4 inches back, the way the charge phase works only your first model has to come within an inch, if your opponent gets a decent charge roll he may be able to use his charge move to go 9 inches toward the sentinel on the right hand side of the board, then pile in 3 inches to the closest model which may be the Sentinel then consolidate three inches into the sentinel. Four inches off your guardsmen is not guaranteed safety.

 gbghg wrote:
sentinel chainswords are 2pts with S5 ap-1, sentinels only get 1 attack (at WS4+) but it'd give you some capability to hit back in melee if your sentinels got taken hostage.

I don't think they are worth any points really. All you get is +1ap, on a single attack that misses half the time. Compare that to a 3 shot stubber on a tank and it is a terrible deal.

question about the unyielding advance strategem. it says a russ can use grinding advance rule no matter how far it moved. does that mean you can advance, or fall back and use it as you would still be "moving"?

ghenghis_Ken wrote:
question about the unyielding advance strategem. it says a russ can use grinding advance rule no matter how far it moved. does that mean you can advance, or fall back and use it as you would still be "moving"?

I would say no, as "advancing" is a specific state that would not be affected by the stratagem. Usually things specifically call out that you can do it after advancing if they want you to. For example, the "crush them!" stratagem mentions advancing.

Resipsa131 wrote:
Genestealers blow through them, consolidate towards your Sentinel and then they can enact the double fight strategum even if they didn’t charge the sentinel to pilein let your Sentinel fight back and then consolidate and take your Sentinel hostage. It’s a ton of CP but if you put a Sentinel or character for that matter near your front lines this is going to happen to you.

I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop posting about this but I find Sentinels to be a liability for Astra Militarium

I'm still not sure you get how tough the sentinels are. Each one is about as tough as a full squad of marines to the sort of assault. They will still die but your opponent is spending hundreds of points and a decent amount of CP to be able to reliably burn through 40 point units. If you have any sort of countercharge or positioning advantage it's going to be harder than you might think for your opponent to gain an advantage off of that.

Resipsa131 wrote:

novembermike wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Uh.... can't you just fall back with the sentinel and then shoot at the enemy? Sure, the sentinel can't fire, but oh well.

"Taking a hostage" describes the practice of surrounding a model in combat, so that it is unable to fall back. That keeps you safe in the enemy's shooting phase. It is definitely a risk with sentinels, but is possible to play around. For example, you use them more to guard flanks from deepstrike, rather than against melee pushes.

Yeah, it's definitely a real thing but if it happens a lot with a 48" range 8" move model then it might be time to examine your decision making.

48 inches seems like a lot until Kraken genestealers double advance for a 20 inch move, then move again 20 inches with the hive commander ability and then charge because they can advance and charge an average of 8 inches and then pilein 3 inches and consolidate to wrap up your Sentinel for a total of 54inches of moment. Then you can’t shoot them unless you’re Valhallan (which in that case flame on)

Or you play in some board that actually has terrain. Last tournament with my orks I had to keep da jumping lootas since while 48" was enough(I was actually out-rangeing tau...That was sick. As far as I was concerned the longer distance between our armies the better as I was doing the long range firefight better!) the LOS meant that to fire at the damn riptides meant I had to keep moving up.

One safety margin for sentinels is though that if orks charge it it tends to die. However congo lines etc means that he could charge something ELSE, position maxed out line toward sentinel and pile in and not only charge something nice like leman russ or infantry squad or two but also pile into that sentinel 12" away and be safe from h2h. Just something to keep in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

novembermike wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:
Genestealers blow through them, consolidate towards your Sentinel and then they can enact the double fight strategum even if they didn’t charge the sentinel to pilein let your Sentinel fight back and then consolidate and take your Sentinel hostage. It’s a ton of CP but if you put a Sentinel or character for that matter near your front lines this is going to happen to you.

I'm getting off on a tangent so I'll stop posting about this but I find Sentinels to be a liability for Astra Militarium

I'm still not sure you get how tough the sentinels are. Each one is about as tough as a full squad of marines to the sort of assault. They will still die but your opponent is spending hundreds of points and a decent amount of CP to be able to reliably burn through 40 point units. If you have any sort of countercharge or positioning advantage it's going to be harder than you might think for your opponent to gain an advantage off of that.

He's not even planning to kill it on his turn. That's the point. Goal is to kill it on your turn and seriously full squad of marines die to squad of kraken stealers. Squad of marines isn't even particularly tough in 40k 8th ed...Actually it's very soft target.

Now of course if you have credible countercharge unit that's different but if your plan to deal with 20 stealers was to shoot them off board then unit of 20 stealers(or 40 boyz, 10 death company, 30 bloodletters etc etc etc) you can't shoot in your deployment zone is obviously bad situation.

And the goal isn't to burn through 40 point unit. Goal is to be in your deployment zone immune to shooting and then charge your firebase at will.

I mean.. yes, I get it. It's scary. But what makes a sentinel more susceptible to this sort of thing than a Leman Russ? Or a squad of Guardsmen?

 Horst wrote:
I mean.. yes, I get it. It's scary. But what makes a sentinel more susceptible to this sort of thing than a Leman Russ? Or a squad of Guardsmen?

Smaller footprint for one. And leman russ tends to be BEHIND safety of screens(who puts leman russ at the front?). Sentinels tends to be forward used to push deep strikers AWAY from main line. Thus sentinel not only is easier to surround(smaller footprint) but is also the one more likely to actually be in position. Infantry squad meanwhile has larger footprint so with careful positioning can be made noticably harder. Especially against ork boyz etc who aren't quite as nutty speed crazy models as kraken stealers.

Alright, so the the sentinel must be deployed back by the russes when turn 1 assault from scary units is likely. Got it.

If you deploy the sentinels back, it will only be a costly unit for minimal firepower. To prevent them to end up hostage, do the opposite. Move with them to the far flanks, so they can prevent deepstrike and in the same time be far enough to discourage to assault them.

Of course, its only doable if you get the first battle round...

Sentinels are still a bad choice, but not a horrible one, like before.

Btw. Do we know if the minus to hit modifiers were nerfed? There is no proof of tha, only rumours...which is very bad for guard...

 Lothar wrote:
Btw. Do we know if the minus to hit modifiers were nerfed? There is no proof of tha, only rumours...which is very bad for guard...

That was pure rumour. It could have been a rumour from play testers regarding some other upcoming release, but it is not in these ones.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Lothar wrote:
Btw. Do we know if the minus to hit modifiers were nerfed? There is no proof of tha, only rumours...which is very bad for guard...

That was pure rumour. It could have been a rumour from play testers regarding some other upcoming release, but it is not in these ones.

Yeah, the next time we hear about it will probably be in the run up to the Spring FAQ. Again though, whether or not it'll be true then is also questionable.

A year ago, sentinels had two big uses which justified their points: scouting out to protect against Deep Strikes, and filling FA slots for cheap. The changes to turn one deep strike and the CPs generated by two battlaions vs. a brigade watered that down pretty hard.

Now, three sentinels are, at most 75pts more than the fourth HQ needed by double battalion. So, if you want CPs, looking at Sentinels as a way to simply buy 2CP... they're not terrible. Even if you just buy three multilaser scouts, you can hide them as well as you can, and use them for objective grabbing. They won't survive much, but "Go Recon!" they move quickly.

Alternatively, you go armored with lascannons, run them as cadian, and bury them in your backfield. Keep in mind, that at this point, deep strikers are more likely in later turns, in your own DZ, so a few static units can help there!

I always used Sentinels as a mobile heavy weapon platforms, distraction or tarpit and it usually works. Locking a tank in close combat with 45pts model and keeping it from firing while they battle with D3<= hits on 6+ is quite effective and hilarious.

tneva82 wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:


He's not even planning to kill it on his turn. That's the point. Goal is to kill it on your turn and seriously full squad of marines die to squad of kraken stealers. Squad of marines isn't even particularly tough in 40k 8th ed...Actually it's very soft target.

Now of course if you have credible countercharge unit that's different but if your plan to deal with 20 stealers was to shoot them off board then unit of 20 stealers(or 40 boyz, 10 death company, 30 bloodletters etc etc etc) you can't shoot in your deployment zone is obviously bad situation.

And the goal isn't to burn through 40 point unit. Goal is to be in your deployment zone immune to shooting and then charge your firebase at will.

Yeah, I forgot about the Kraken fallback and charge rule.

novembermike wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Resipsa131 wrote:


He's not even planning to kill it on his turn. That's the point. Goal is to kill it on your turn and seriously full squad of marines die to squad of kraken stealers. Squad of marines isn't even particularly tough in 40k 8th ed...Actually it's very soft target.

Now of course if you have credible countercharge unit that's different but if your plan to deal with 20 stealers was to shoot them off board then unit of 20 stealers(or 40 boyz, 10 death company, 30 bloodletters etc etc etc) you can't shoot in your deployment zone is obviously bad situation.

And the goal isn't to burn through 40 point unit. Goal is to be in your deployment zone immune to shooting and then charge your firebase at will.

Yeah, I forgot about the Kraken fallback and charge rule.

Sentinels are a good unit to be taken hostage by the enemy.

A typical move will be to slaughter the frontline infantry and to avoid being shot by pining in a unit like a sentinel with plans to charge the firebase next turn.

Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

1 unit being held hostage in CC can easily get a guard army tabled so adopt a no hostage policy and kill the hostage with a cyclops. The 2D6 S9 auto hits on the enemy unit is icing on the cake. The primary job of a cyclops is to kill the hostage in a situation like that exposing the gene stealers or ork boys to obscene amounts of FRFSRF.

 schadenfreude wrote:
1 unit being held hostage in CC can easily get a guard army tabled so adopt a no hostage policy and kill the hostage with a cyclops.

Now I'm back to wanting 3 Cyclopes.

Edit: Now I'm thinking about it, Cyclops are really one of the few units in the game that can hurt your own units on purpose. Are there even any others? That is such a useful tactical tool to have. I may have to go 3x Cyclops in my brigade, and move russes and tank commanders over to a spearhead or battalion.