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I'm looking a little further into the future, but wondering why I see no mention of these armies much. Are they pretty poor in 6th edition? I like DA a lot but we already have a player in our group with these, but nobody plays templars or ravens. I don't have Codex SM so no idea what they are like.

black templars are IMHO a case of "even if they rocked people'd say they sucked" due to the let down of going from their own codex to going into space marines.

raven guard... yeah they're not abd but seen as a little lackluster compared to some of the chap tactics

BT and Raven Guard are generally seen as the weakest two Chapter Tactics in the new Codex. Out of the two though, Raven Guard is probably the better one because it allows you to plan around it, whereas the BT CT is much more unpredictable and random.

As Walrus said. Half of what RG can do (Scouts for non-bulky models; Stealth for 1 turn is a nice bonus, but not the primary reason to use RG) can be done by WS with 1 SC that you'd buy anyway (Kor'Sarro), and without bulky limitations! Okay, you need to be a bike or inside a Dedicated Transport - what you'd do anyway as well; 12" scout! But both tactics fall dead against a 34p strategy (Inquisitor with 3 servo-skulls)
The other half (jump pack shenanigans) aren't that great because Jump Marines aren't that great. Assault Marines doesn't have the punch to be a big problem and Vanguard Veterans are too expensive when kitted out.

BT has close combat oriented CT when they play better as a ranged army (Crusader squads can grab a heavy and a special weapon with 5 models, while Tacticals need 10)

Personally, I think BT are cooler looking then RG, also their story is a little more interesting.

But looks and fluff are only a few things they have going for them.

BT and RG are definitely better CTs than Salamanders where it's really just about giving your flamers (and meltas if you take Vulkan) more oomph and allowing you to re-roll one die with your characters.

RG make for a great strategic army. If they go first, the scout move allows them to deploy forward and have better board control in the initial game stage than other advancing armies. However, remember that Ravenguard jump troops cannot redeploy 12" as having the bulky special rule prevents them from even gaining Scout.

Nevertheless, all other units with the Scout rule also allows them to outflank with everything instead, making transports moot.

If the enemy steals the initiative, they can use the scout move to creep back into cover instead, and they also fare better than any other army in absorbing enemy firepower due to so many units getting stealth on turn 1.

Finally, Ravenguard Assault Squads and Vanguard Vets have a very low chance of failing their charge, and get to re-roll HoW wounds on top of that.

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Black Templars arent chosen because their strengths arent as obvious - they arent on their CT buff list, but rather in their FoC manipulation.

While re-rolling failed hits and having rending cc-weapons for all characters in challenges and everyone denying the witch on a 5+ and everyone rolling 2 dice for run moves and picking the highest and making sweeping advances of an extra D3" is nice, it is just gravy on the actual BT chapter tactics, namely having access to the best troops selection in the entire SM codex - 5 man MSUs toting a heavy and a special weapon, or bp & cc-armed guys carrying a special weapon and upto 2 other power weapons/fists. The best thing though is that they can take LRCs as dedicated transports, leaving HS slots free for something else.

 Sir Arun wrote:
BT and RG are definitely better CTs than Salamanders where it's really just about giving your flamers (and meltas if you take Vulkan) more oomph and allowing you to re-roll one die with your characters.

RG make for a great strategic army. If they go first, the scout move allows them to deploy forward and have better board control in the initial game stage than other advancing armies. However, remember that Ravenguard jump troops cannot redeploy 12" as having the bulky special rule prevents them from even gaining Scout.

Nevertheless, all other units with the Scout rule also allows them to outflank with everything instead, making transports moot.

If the enemy steals the initiative, they can use the scout move to creep back into cover instead, and they also fare better than any other army in absorbing enemy firepower due to so many units getting stealth on turn 1.

Finally, Ravenguard Assault Squads and Vanguard Vets have a very low chance of failing their charge, and get to re-roll HoW wounds on top of that.

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Black Templars arent chosen because their strengths arent as obvious - they arent on their CT buff list, but rather in their FoC manipulation.

While re-rolling failed hits and having rending cc-weapons for all characters in challenges and everyone denying the witch on a 5+ and everyone rolling 2 dice for run moves and picking the highest and making sweeping advances of an extra D3" is nice, it is just gravy on the actual BT chapter tactics, namely having access to the best troops selection in the entire SM codex - 5 man MSUs toting a heavy and a special weapon, or bp & cc-armed guys carrying a special weapon and upto 2 other power weapons/fists. The best thing though is that they can take LRCs as dedicated transports, leaving HS slots free for something else.

Sorry, not buying that explanation. Salamanders make for tremendous Drop Pod armies, mitigating the risk of rubber-lance syndrome on the dropping units while giving Sergeants rerolls to their combi-weapon shots.

Crusader Squads, while stronger than normal Tactical Squads, are still rather bad. Having an extra plasma gun in 5-man camping squads isn't too big of a benefit compared to most other Chapter Tactics, and while having any CC troops at all is nice, the issue is that they've got delivery problems and still aren't that great. If you have to pay ~180 points plus a Land Raider for the privilege of driving across the board and killing a Fire Warrior squad before being vaporized, odds are your Chapter Tactics isn't very good. Further, the inability to take Librarians makes the CT a sidegrade at best.

bullyboy wrote:
I'm looking a little further into the future, but wondering why I see no mention of these armies much. Are they pretty poor in 6th edition? I like DA a lot but we already have a player in our group with these, but nobody plays templars or ravens. I don't have Codex SM so no idea what they are like.

I play Templars! They're my primary army! Templars for evah!

Im the only BT player in my area, and they really suck. I play them as a black tide, with all ccw's. Sadly, with the random charge distances and fething tau overwatch, I rarely win anymore.

 Sir Arun wrote:

Nevertheless, all other units with the Scout rule also allows them to outflank with everything instead, making transports moot.

If the enemy steals the initiative, they can use the scout move to creep back into cover instead, and they also fare better than any other army in absorbing enemy firepower due to so many units getting stealth on turn 1.

But inside transports they can use scout up to 12", instead of only 6". RG rhino spam is quite known.

When enemy steals initiative, scout redeployments have already been done... you cannot redeploy your units, as the game starts immediately after the initiative stealing happens.

RG Rhino Rush is a pretty strong tactic and really makes the basic marine useful again what with grenades and combat squads and such. Having 60 marines in their face t1 with rhinos blocking LoS after you've shot at them (rhinos scout up, move 6,unload marines, shoot marines, flat out rhinos to block LoS to mess with enemy retaliation. Oh and the rhinos should have a 4+ cover due to smoke and stealth) really makes for a fun army with the ability to pull out a fair amount of wins against competitive armies.

I'd imagine if you put BT in drop pods/Rhinos and/or Land Raiders they'd do a better job. But yeah, no, take White Scars if you want to win.

 A GumyBear wrote:
RG Rhino Rush is a pretty strong tactic and really...

Which is crippled quite easily with a 34 point Inquisitor. You may not always run into this (I do) but Scars with Kor'sarro have a lot more advantages with basically the same effect.

I say go Raven Guard with Shadow Captain Korvydae, one squad of scouts and you can plop 80 + jump pack models on the table. At least its something different...

Ya true servo skulls poop on RG rhino rush and they are everywhere but thats the same problem white scars have. I never said rhino rush was the best list in the world but it still is a strong one in casual play.