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I'm assembling a riptide I just purchased and a few questions popped up in my mind.

1. If the riptide is modeled were the weapon is sticking out to the side. If you have nothing but the weapon pointing around the corner of a building and the weapon has line of sight, can you shoot at whatever it has line of sight on, even if that thing can not see you riptide and thus can't shoot back?

2. If a model is pose-able, such as an imperial knight or riptide, can you pose the model at all times, only in your movement phase, or something else?


Thanks in advance!

I'm pretty sure LOS is drawn, in the wording of the BRB, from the model's eyes (Page 8)

And LOS is a shooting requirement

It's different from the standpoint of a Vehicle which draws its LOS from any of the weapons you are firing from.

You might be getting that a little confused due to Riptides being the bastard MCs that they are and not actual Vehicles

Brachiaraidos is correct in drawing LOS from the models eyes

As for the posing of the model, I don't recall there being any restrictions on it mid game. If you do it for any reason other than making dynamic poses, though, you will have to deal with people accusing you of a special form of modelling for advantage.

For #2 you are not normally allowed to change the dimensions of your models mid game, the only thing that allows you to move parts of your model is vehicles weapons that can physically move(because this is how you determine you firing arc).

1) Line of Sight requirements have been addressed, and while they raise some very interesting questions concerning models without eyes, it is clear Riptide does not draw it's Line of Sight from the weapons themselves.
In the case of the Riptide:
From the Head of the suit, or from the head of the pilot in the chest of the suit?

2) At no point does the Rule Book address how and when we go about positioning a non-vehicle model during the game, therefore it is not legal to change the position of the Riptide at any point during the Game.

Thanks so much guys, makes sooooo much sense.

And yeah, totally got the vehicle LOS rules confused with the riptide and IK.

THANKS!

I think IK would allow you to do the corner because of the fact it is a vehicle, might be entirely wrong though.

Yes, vehicles trace LOS through the barrel of the gun, so it is entirely possible for them to have LOS to you, while you cannot shoot them back.

Side sponsons are the most common way to do that.

Hammerheads, or vanquishers (or anything else with a long turret weapon compared to the tank) can also manage it reasonably "easily", given a moderately dense board.

Thats pretty hard, since the turret give LOS to the attacker

If your shooting me with part of it, i'm shooting back at part of it.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
If your shooting me with part of it, i'm shooting back at part of it.

Do you have a rule to back up that position?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
If your shooting me with part of it, i'm shooting back at part of it.

Do you have a rule to back up that position?

Yes, the Line of Sight rules for vehicles say to trace line of sight from the mounting along the barrel.

You ignore the barrel for line of sight but not the mounting.

So if a vehicle can shoot at you by tracing line of sight from the mounting along the barrel then that same model that was shot would usually be able to see the mounting of the weapon and can shoot back.

certain pieces of terrain that obscure the targets eyes and not the feet could not let you shoot back, such as some skimmers, but usually you will get to shoot back.

It is of course a case by case basis since True Line of Sight is in play at all times, but usually if a vehicle can shoot you, you can shoot the vehicle.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
If your shooting me with part of it, i'm shooting back at part of it.

Do you have a rule to back up that position?

Yes, the Line of Sight rules for vehicles say to trace line of sight from the mounting along the barrel.

You ignore the barrel for line of sight but not the mounting.

So if a vehicle can shoot at you by tracing line of sight from the mounting along the barrel then that same model that was shot would usually be able to see the mounting of the weapon and can shoot back.

certain pieces of terrain that obscure the targets eyes and not the feet could not let you shoot back, such as some skimmers, but usually you will get to shoot back.

It is of course a case by case basis since True Line of Sight is in play at all times, but usually if a vehicle can shoot you, you can shoot the vehicle.

And that defeated your entire statement here.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
If your shooting me with part of it, i'm shooting back at part of it.

Do you have a rule to back up that position?

Yes, the Line of Sight rules for vehicles say to trace line of sight from the mounting along the barrel.

You ignore the barrel for line of sight but not the mounting.

So if a vehicle can shoot at you by tracing line of sight from the mounting along the barrel then that same model that was shot would usually be able to see the mounting of the weapon and can shoot back.

certain pieces of terrain that obscure the targets eyes and not the feet could not let you shoot back, such as some skimmers, but usually you will get to shoot back.

It is of course a case by case basis since True Line of Sight is in play at all times, but usually if a vehicle can shoot you, you can shoot the vehicle.

And that defeated your entire statement here.

It really doesn't.

He asked for rules, I gave them. Here is a quote "When a unit fires at a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret (ignoring the vehicle's gun barrels, antennas) decorative banner poles, etc.)" (73)

"trace line of sight from each weapons' mounting and along its barrel" (72)

You ignore gun barrels, but the mounting is not ignored.

So if a vehicle can trace Line of Sight to a model's eyes then that model can shoot back at said vehicle

Except the point I was referring to was if a vehicle could shoot at him that he could shoot at the vehicle, no exceptions. I asked him to provide a rule to back up that statement.

Shooting at a unit that can't shoot back happens all the time.

The shooting unit/vehicle can see an arm/leg of the targeted unit. Meanwhile, the head/torso of the targeted unit cannot see the unit that made the shot.

Only someone with little practical experience hasn't encountered this.

If you want a vehicle example, you can trace LoS from by of the barrels of the Exorcist. But even if you can see the barrels, you my not be able to see the hull to shoot back.

To be honest I think that "peaking" tank gun barrels around corners (I'm imagining a sponson in this case) to get a shot at an opponent but disallowing them from returning fire, based on not enough of your vehicle being visible come across as quite munchkinny. The fact that someone would attempt to (in my opinion) abuse the LoS rules for this goes against the heart of the game and falls entirely into the realm of WAAC. The same would go for re-posing a model mid-game for some tactical advantage.

In my 4 years of playing I've only ever played against two people who employed this mentality to the game and for both of them I quietly and politely finished the match and any other time they asked to play a match against me I would decline, I do not wish lessen my enjoyment of the game by being forced to resort to munchkinning RAW just to be competitive against people who feel the need to abuse them.

Point of note: I do not play competitively so my games are all just for pure enjoyment and socializing. This is just my two cents.

I can't think of a situation where a gun barrel can see you but, assuming you can see the gun barrel, you can't also see part of the hull/sponson/weapon mount. You'd have to have a weapon that consisted of only barrel and no other parts or components.

Even hunter-killers have mountings around the "barrel".
A havoc launcher maybe? It's pretty much just barrel.

I can't think of any sponsons or turrets on any vehicles in 40k that don't have "hull" directly behind or around the "barrel". Unless someone tried to claim that the barrel blocks LoS to the hull and the barrel can't be targetted. That would be a quick road to having no friends though.

As Idolator said there are always situations where you are shooting at an enemy models leg/arm/etc. and their head can't see you but if your gun can draw LoS to the enemies head, it can see you back.

To milkboys example... the exorcist model is problematic. LoS must be drawn "along" the weapons barrel. Well an exorcist's barrels are pointing straight up in the air. I suppose by RAW an exorcist can only shoot in a 45' cone straight up. I can't see anyone really playing it this way but that model would require some discussion.

 LUTNIT wrote:
I can't think of a situation where a gun barrel can see you but, assuming you can see the gun barrel, you can't also see part of the hull/sponson/weapon mount. You'd have to have a weapon that consisted of only barrel and no other parts or components.

Even hunter-killers have mountings around the "barrel".
A havoc launcher maybe? It's pretty much just barrel.

I can't think of any sponsons or turrets on any vehicles in 40k that don't have "hull" directly behind the "barrel" and thus could be targetted. Unless someone tried to claim that the barrel blocks LoS to the hull and the barrel can't be targetted. That would be a quick road to having no friends though.

As Idolator said there are always situations where you are shooting at an enemy models leg/arm/etc. and their head can't see you but if your gun can draw LoS to the enemies head, it can see you back.

For this what I picture is a piece of hard cover and you hide a predator tank behind it with nothing but its sponson weapon showing and your model is positioned directly in front of it downfield, all you would be able to see is the sponson weapon itself and the mounting bracket its hanging from. In this scenario you can't see the actual hull of the vehicle which is what I though you had to measure LoS to for a shot.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
For this what I picture is a piece of hard cover and you hide a predator tank behind it with nothing but its sponson weapon showing and your model is positioned directly in front of it downfield, all you would be able to see is the sponson weapon itself and the mounting bracket its hanging from. In this scenario you can't see the actual hull of the vehicle which is what I though you had to measure LoS to for a shot.

The body of the lascannon you can see around the barrel from the front counts as "hull"
The mounting bracket that sticks out from the the main hull counts as "hull"
The pivot point the lascannon is mounted on counts as "hull"

None of these parts are "gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles, etc." so can all be targetted as "hull". Only the barrel, the (usually) cylindrical tube the projectile/energy bolt/whatever travels down, is the "barrel" and cannot be targetted.

If the sponson was shooting through a hole just large enough for the gun barrel to fit, with nothing else visible, technically all I can see to shoot back is "barrel". Though I'm sure very rare that is possible and in that case I'm not sure what to do. Technically all you can see is barrel and not hull so you can't shoot back I suppose. It would have to be a perfectly positioned, perfectly sized hole. I can't see something like that happening without a purpose built piece of terrain.

Check the rules for vehicle shooting. Even the guns that don't move do have 45 degrees arc. You can hide a vehicle behind an obstacle and allow only the barrel of a sponsoned gun to show. From there check the firing lines and you will notice that you can hit a lot of targets without exposing anything back.

Naw wrote:
Check the rules for vehicle shooting. Even the guns that don't move do have 45 degrees arc. You can hide a vehicle behind an obstacle and allow only the barrel of a sponsoned gun to show. From there check the firing lines and you will notice that you can hit a lot of targets without exposing anything back.

I suppose that is true but it's a pretty narrow angle of fire. With something like a vindicator with a stubby barrel I'm not sure if it's possible as the reverse 45' arc never encompasses the entire hull so there will always be a corner of the front hull showing. With a longer barrelled or offset barrelled tank it could work. Something like a destroyer tank hunter from FW maybe.

*edit*
I checked the current diagram for hull mounted weapons and the 45' arc is drawn from the hull at the base of the barrel, not the end of the barrel, so it's not possible to use that angle to shoot something while it only sees your barrel.

Does not the written rule say it is from the tip of the barrel?

 Ghaz wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
If your shooting me with part of it, i'm shooting back at part of it.

Do you have a rule to back up that position?

TLOS?

Naw wrote:
Does not the written rule say it is from the tip of the barrel?

Along the barrel, not from the tip.

Naw wrote:
Does not the written rule say it is from the tip of the barrel?

The rule says "assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45'."
It doesn't say if the 45' arc is taken from the tip of the barrel or the base of the barrel.
The diagram of a Leman Russ shows the 45' arc being taken from the base of the barrel (hull lascannon in this case). I believe the diagram in 5th was a vindicator with the arc taken from the tip. For some reason I thought the vindicator diagram was in the 6th ed rule book but it's from 5th.