Adding something to Close Combat

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Big Joe**

I think everyone can agree this edition of 40k needs a little more flavor in Close Combat. I am planning on trying out a little cross over from fantasy. You might have noticed that in a lot of the codexes they have been taking away close combat weapons and or pistols. Space marines now just have a bolt pistol and stormtroopers (I'm still going to call them that) lost their hot shot pistols. So to hurry up and get to the point, (too late!) I was going to add a Parry save into close combat.

A regular close combat weapon (knife, sword) would give a 6+

A chain weapon (sword, axe) would give a 5+

And a power weapon would give a 4+, to include a power fist (I would think of it as a shield of sorts)

So after armor saves are taken, if units have these weapons, they would get another chance to save. Like a ward save, it is not modified. I think about all the Commissar Cain novels of him parrying an attack with his chain sword.

This would also make some under used units a little better, Jump jet assault marines would now have a 3+ followed by a 5+, or termies who would have a 2+ followed by a 4+.

Plus it would make it worth the 15 to 25 points for the IG/AM to actually take these weapons now.

**niv-mizzet**

Clan Raukaan chapter master, ghaz, and other cc nightmares would be nigh invincible.

I could maybe see it as an invuln, like a chance to block something that would break through your armor, but I would want that tied more to WS than just what weapon you have. (Yknow, since WS does about jack at the moment.)

**Big Joe**

That is a good idea, maybe linking them together. You have to have a close combat weapon and an equal or higher weapon skill to get the save.

**Quickjager**

I dunno the Grey Knights codex would be a huge PITA to deal with, after all the all come with force weapons.

**Furyou Miko**

Nope. I do not agree that close combat needs a boost. It's perfect where it is.

Play Tau? No, no, I don't. :p

**koooaei**

Why would you want to give cc units extra saves in cc? That's doing nothing vs shooting and doesn't help them to get in cc. That's only helpful vs MC.

**Scipio Africanus**

koooaei wrote:
Why would you want to give cc units extra saves in cc? That's doing nothing vs shooting and doesn't help them to get in cc. That's only helpful vs MC.

This. While it might help casual assault units like assault marines, these rules don't really help the units who are hurt by the current assautlt rules.

Most of the units who are hurt by assault don't suck in combat, but they suck at getting stuck in it.

**jy2**

Right now, there is only upside to your proposed rule. There needs to be a balancing factor. In other words, the bonus to your saves shouldn't be for free. It should come at the expense of something else. Either:

1) Reduce your total Attacks to 1 for that turn and receive a -1bonus to your armour save (to a maximum of 2+). If your total attacks is at 1, then you can only do option #2

or

2) Reduce your WS to 1 for that turn and receive a -1 to your armour save (to a maximum of 2+).

You're too focused on defense (parrying) that you are really not attacking as aggressively.

**Co'tor Shas**

It should depend on the type of weapon too. An axe is a lot harder to parry a sword thrust with than another sword, and shields could also be a thing.

**Aix'Nyre**

IMO it would be more logical for the parry to come before any saves. It could become quite a complex process to work out a balanced system but it's been done in prior editions so not impossible. I think it was pretty deeply a part of 3rd Edition. Like JY2 mentioned i think a counter-balance is needed to reflect a more defensive style to justify.

my 2 cents at least.

**Co'tor Shas**

I quite like how dark heresy does it. You still have to take a weapons skill test against the opposing... opposer. But you get one reaction per turn in which yo can take another weapon skill test to parry the blow. It's your last defense before getting hit.

**liquidjoshi**

How about Parrying at Initiative (So you can only parry attacks hitting at your initiative or lower), and make it a simple WS roll. Re-work it so you can only parry weapons you'd get an armour save against? A lot of work to be done on that front though.

Really, assaulting units need a charge range of 6+D6" IMO. That would be the best improvement.

**Big Joe**

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I was trying to keep things simple as to keep with the spirit of the game. So I was just trying to give a quick save based on what weapon you had. Kind of like how they do it in Fantasy. Or better yet Mordheim (yeah! I love that game).

So to keep things simple (and fast) I was going to just do it like this;

If you have a close combat weapon (doesn't matter the type, but prefer swords) or a chain SWORD, or power SWORD. Any close combat failed saves can be deflected on a 6+. Kind of like Fantasy. However if your WS is higher than your attackers majority WS, or opponent in a challenge, you get a +1 (so a 5+ save)

This would work against attacks that even would ignore your armor, as you are deflecting them to the side.

What do you think?

**Buttons**

I really dislike this idea. Survivability in close combat should be based off of skill and not simply one's weapon. Honestly something I have wanted since I started (if only for simplicity) is to make the to hit chart match the to wound chart (except instead of a WS 1 being unable to hit a WS 10 they simply hit on a 6+ just like a WS 8 model would). This would give high WS models an advantage outside of challenges since now a captain or chapter master can hit other marines on a 2+ or a WS 5 model can hit guardsmen on a 2+. I mean right now a high BS is worth much more than a high WS (until you hit 6 at which point high WS is more useful for a while).

**Kain**

Quickjager wrote:
I dunno the Grey Knights codex would be a huge PITA to deal with, after all the all come with force weapons.

And their force swords improve their saves in close combat by one.

So every GK with a force sword will be rocking a 3++ save in assault.

Your power weapons are now irrelevant.

**Timmy149**

Methinks this *save* should be a flat 6+ or something like that, but only with default CCW, in order to make them more appealing. IMO I think this would be thoroughly broken unless it was only on characters, with characters who are more dextrous in CC who already have a similar save gaining an extra +1 on their parry save.

**Kain**

Timmy149 wrote:
Methinks this *save* should be a flat 6+ or something like that, but only with default CCW, in order to make them more appealing. IMO I think this would be thoroughly broken unless it was only on characters, with characters who are more dextrous in CC who already have a similar save gaining an extra +1 on their parry save.

No, this punishes melee specialists even more than they already have been throughout 6e.

**Ashiraya**

Remember parrying quickly becomes redundant as the foe becomes stronger.

A Stormtrooper parrying a Big Choppa from a Warboss with his combat knife is something that should not happen.

**Kain**

Ashiraya wrote:
Remember parrying quickly becomes redundant as the foe becomes stronger.

A Stormtrooper parrying a Big Choppa from a Warboss with his combat knife is something that should not happen.

Or worse, a ratling parrying a Heirophant bio-titan.

**Timmy149**

Kain wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:
Remember parrying quickly becomes redundant as the foe becomes stronger.

A Stormtrooper parrying a Big Choppa from a Warboss with his combat knife is something that should not happen.

Or worse, a ratling parrying a Heirophant bio-titan.

"I got this"