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In the current AM codex, is it worth taking a basilisk and/or manticore to add some scary big gunz to my army?
I'll need quite a bit of anti-armour in my army, combined with the power to remove infantry at a good pace.

The Earthshaker on the Basilisk does both of these rather nicely, but the minimum range of 36" means that after turn 1, I'll probably always be scattering. Str 9 Ap 3 Large Blast does answer all of my current needs though.

The Manticore's Storm Eagle rockets could be a huge boost in gun power, but they're not always reliable, and I'm unlikely to be able to use it for last-turn objective clearance, and my regular enemy (Spehss Muhreenz) will always get a 3+ against it. Str 10 Ap 4 Ord3 Large Blast would do nicely for shattering his Rhinos/Razorbacks, but I can handle them with my Vanq and Exterminator in a pinch.
And what with the extra 45 points base per model, it may not be enough dakka-per-point, especially if I keep rolling 1's and 2's for the number of blasts.

My army is a mechanised force involving up to 4 LRBT's (2x Vanq, 1x Exterminator, 1x Executioner), and up to 3 Mechvets. My opponent typically fields lots of lascannons, either in tactical squads, in preds or on razoracks. All of whom, as I'm sure you can guess, must die.

I'd take Manticores over Bassies.

I'll want higher strength over better AP, seeing as the AM book is already brimming over with MEQ killing goodness. I'll also want more blasts, and statistically speaking, the Manticore will average more blasts than the Bassie, even in a 7 turn game where the Manticore ran out 3 turns earlier.

You'll be averaging 2 blasts a turn with the Manticore, and more upfront damage is better than a middling amount throughout the game.

The Manticore is a more effective; horde killer, tank buster, cover-hugging-unit-clearer, and is also a touch more durable through not being open-topped, as well as more redundancy in weapon destroyed results.

The Bassie is cheaper, and better at clearing out MEQ in the open (slightly better in cover, but the extra wounds from the Manticore helps to offset that).

In short, I'd still rock the Manticore anyday over a Bassie.

Neither of these options seems that solid in that role. Single shot AP3 is very unlikely remove a vehicle, though I guess you might stop it? It will mop up a MEQ squad that just popped out of a vehicle you blew up.

If you want to blow up enemy vehicles, lascannons or some of the Vanquisher's main gun might be better.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'd take Manticores over Bassies.

I'll want higher strength over better AP, seeing as the AM book is already brimming over with MEQ killing goodness. I'll also want more blasts, and statistically speaking, the Manticore will average more blasts than the Bassie, even in a 7 turn game where the Manticore ran out 3 turns earlier.

You'll be averaging 2 blasts a turn with the Manticore, and more upfront damage is better than a middling amount throughout the game.

The Manticore is a more effective; horde killer, tank buster, cover-hugging-unit-clearer, and is also a touch more durable through not being open-topped, as well as more redundancy in weapon destroyed results.

The Bassie is cheaper, and better at clearing out MEQ in the open (slightly better in cover, but the extra wounds from the Manticore helps to offset that).

In short, I'd still rock the Manticore anyday over a Bassie.

This.

The manticore is much better at wiping out vehicles and 4+ sv models then the bassie is (especially for its point cost) and the Wyvern is much better against nearly all infantry than the bassie, putting the bassie in weird sport at the moment. Bassies are only really best against MEQ but even then, the wyvern is not far behind at all in this regard either and only when they are out in the open. As much as I want to love the bassie in concept, there are far better options in the codex to handle its role.

I'll third the opinion of manticore over basilisk. the problem with basilisks is most table sizes don't favor them. If you were playing on a 10' by 6' then takes as many as you can but on a smaller table a normal russ is one strength lower and doesn't have barrage but has front 14 versus front 12, isn't open topped, and still has great range.

The manticore also helps a lot more against vehicles because the ap difference of 3 to 4 has no effect against armor and s10 is a bonus over s9.

Thanks, guys

Selym wrote:The Earthshaker on the Basilisk does both of these rather nicely, but the minimum range of 36" means that after turn 1, I'll probably always be scattering.

I'd check your rulebook again. There isn't that much of a difference.

Selym wrote:Str 9 Ap 3 Large Blast does answer all of my current needs though.

Your current need of anti-vehicle? Not really, and certainly not more than the manticore. You need either Ap1, Ap2, or multiple shots to be a serious anti-vehicle weapon.

Selym wrote:The Manticore's Storm Eagle rockets could be a huge boost in gun power, but they're not always reliable, and I'm unlikely to be able to use it for last-turn objective clearance

Large blast weapons are going to be bad objective clearers anyways. They're good when shooting into the midst of a bunch of full-strength squads, but they're really bad at trying to pick off that last model or two, due to the limited number of hits they can put down.

Selym wrote:My army is a mechanised force involving up to 4 LRBT's (2x Vanq, 1x Exterminator, 1x Executioner), and up to 3 Mechvets.

Why not just field more of those?

 Ailaros wrote:

Selym wrote:The Earthshaker on the Basilisk does both of these rather nicely, but the minimum range of 36" means that after turn 1, I'll probably always be scattering.

I'd check your rulebook again. There isn't that much of a difference.

Selym wrote:Str 9 Ap 3 Large Blast does answer all of my current needs though.

Your current need of anti-vehicle? Not really, and certainly not more than the manticore. You need either Ap1, Ap2, or multiple shots to be a serious anti-vehicle weapon.

Selym wrote:The Manticore's Storm Eagle rockets could be a huge boost in gun power, but they're not always reliable, and I'm unlikely to be able to use it for last-turn objective clearance

Large blast weapons are going to be bad objective clearers anyways. They're good when shooting into the midst of a bunch of full-strength squads, but they're really bad at trying to pick off that last model or two, due to the limited number of hits they can put down.

Selym wrote:My army is a mechanised force involving up to 4 LRBT's (2x Vanq, 1x Exterminator, 1x Executioner), and up to 3 Mechvets.

Why not just field more of those?

'cause I'm planning on scratch building some artillery, and I don't want more than those for LRBT's. 2 Vanquishers with a tank commander, the other two separate in HS. Backed up by one artillery unit, I think I'll do quite well for blasting things.
If I for some reason I want to go further, I can just ally with ABG, and spam tanks. Mmm... 3,000 points of mechanized...

If you take just one non-tank artillery unit the wyvern should be it. Neither the manticore nor the basilisk is going to allow you to guarantee you're taking out that squad on the other side of the table that you need gone.

Mavnas wrote:
If you take just one non-tank artillery unit the wyvern should be it. Neither the manticore nor the basilisk is going to allow you to guarantee you're taking out that squad on the other side of the table that you need gone.

No guarantee, but it's a start.
I think I'll probably try out a Wyvern at some point... I hadn't actually though of it, what with it being so new 'n all.

Yeah, I initially didn't think much of it, but reports indicate it wrecks clumped units with sheer volume of fire (being twin linked barrage and all). Though it probably takes 2-3 to really shine.

It's more useful if you expect deep striking and/or popping open lots of transports.

There's no reason to take a basalisk over a manticore. If you think AP3 will make a difference, you're shooting your basalisk at the wrong target.

...?

Then what is the "right" target for a basilisk?

Horde MEQ squads in a massive APOC game with multiple connected tables. Out in the open.

 Ailaros wrote:
...?

Then what is the "right" target for a basilisk?

Armour, for the most part in my opinion.

Of course, you can turn a manticore against a lesser range of targets, and can't fire directly, but it doesn't make AP3 worthwhile. Also noteworthy is the move away from sv3+ towards cheaper! weaker armour that I'm sure everyone who's played a heldrake or riptide is aware of.

S9 AP 3 is that irritating "good enough for almost everything" value that's let down by its nigh-on uselessness against a 2+ save (you can't drown them in shots from it. And is stripped of its main target by weapons that do the job better (chem cannons, bale flamers and ion accelerators for infantry, and manticore for tanks.

But that's like saying that bolters are Ap5, and if you're using them for their Ap5, then you're using them against the wrong target, because the right target is AV10.

Basilisks and manticores are both middling against vehicles. What's different about them is that one can spread around more Ap4 blast, but the other is Ap3. The Ap is sort of the only thing that differentiates them.

Other than that basilisks can come in a squad of up to 3, and then a bunch of little stuff.

I guess a lot of people look at AP now and judge the effectiveness of that weapon as anti vehicle on that premise alone. +1 or +2 to the damage table is nice, but in an edition of hull points, in the long run it doesn't matter. I'm not arguing 1 shotting every vehicle you shoot at isn't ideal, it's just not gonna happen.

I like both artillery pieces as anti-tank. Both have barrage and ordnance, so you're hitting side armor and more or less ignoring cover, as well as rolling 2 dice for armor pen and picking the highest. Even against AV14, the odds are in your favor for a pen.

I prefer the Manticore, I feel it is a huge game changer in how your opponent deploys and how willing he is to put things out in the open. STR 10 keeps people honest as well, instant deathing some annoying characters via barrage sniping (Yes, it's AP 4, but people sometimes roll 1s and 2s). Great for taking on hordes or back field objective campers. Just try and avoid shooting it at units with 3+ armor or Invulns better than 4.

The Basilisk is my pick for nuking marines off of objectives. Clearly better than the Manticore due to the AP 3. STR 8 also instant deaths most marines with FNP as well, so this will mulch Blood Angels.

I try to take 1 of each if I can, haven't bothered to squadron Basilisks yet though. I like them both, they both have their strengths, yes a lascannon or a melta is better at going after vehicles due to the AP, but these have a range advantage, don't require LOS, and ignore cover most of the time.

The only time I've been tempted by the idea of running basilisk spam was towards the beginning of 6th, when I played a lot against an ark necron player. Basilisks would be good for getting rid of those obnoxious AV13 shields, and their bad Ap would be somewhat mitigated by open topped.

Otherwise, if I'm just going to knock hull points off a vehicle, I might as well take a weapon that gets a serious chance at a vehicle explosion in the process.

Take a Manticore. It'll sort out that Armour issue you've got. If you need anti-horde, get a Wyvern. Those things are nasty and cheap as can be. It'll get the job done.

 Ailaros wrote:
The only time I've been tempted by the idea of running basilisk spam was towards the beginning of 6th, when I played a lot against an ark necron player. Basilisks would be good for getting rid of those obnoxious AV13 shields, and their bad Ap would be somewhat mitigated by open topped.

Otherwise, if I'm just going to knock hull points off a vehicle, I might as well take a weapon that gets a serious chance at a vehicle explosion in the process.

Well yea, but artillery does have a few advantages over your lascannons or meltas. If you've got nothing better to shoot your basilisks or manticores at, I'd shoot at vehicles. That would be my target priority, but to each his own.

 Wingeds wrote:
I guess a lot of people look at AP now and judge the effectiveness of that weapon as anti vehicle on that premise alone. +1 or +2 to the damage table is nice, but in an edition of hull points, in the long run it doesn't matter. I'm not arguing 1 shotting every vehicle you shoot at isn't ideal, it's just not gonna happen.

I like both artillery pieces as anti-tank. Both have barrage and ordnance, so you're hitting side armor and more or less ignoring cover, as well as rolling 2 dice for armor pen and picking the highest. Even against AV14, the odds are in your favor for a pen.

I prefer the Manticore, I feel it is a huge game changer in how your opponent deploys and how willing he is to put things out in the open. STR 10 keeps people honest as well, instant deathing some annoying characters via barrage sniping (Yes, it's AP 4, but people sometimes roll 1s and 2s). Great for taking on hordes or back field objective campers. Just try and avoid shooting it at units with 3+ armor or Invulns better than 4.

The Basilisk is my pick for nuking marines off of objectives. Clearly better than the Manticore due to the AP 3. STR 8 also instant deaths most marines with FNP as well, so this will mulch Blood Angels.

I try to take 1 of each if I can, haven't bothered to squadron Basilisks yet though. I like them both, they both have their strengths, yes a lascannon or a melta is better at going after vehicles due to the AP, but these have a range advantage, don't require LOS, and ignore cover most of the time.

Honestly, neither is great anti-tank. Sure, they will pen, but you could put a single lascannon shot into something cheaper and have a higher chance of blowing it up. In an edition of hull points, low RoF weapons aren't great anti-tank. When shooting at large targets like vehicles you lose most of the benefit of the large blast.

The ideal basilisk target though has got to be those T6 3+ eldar wraith guys. Way more valuable and annoying than marines. (Also way less likely to be drowned in sheer number of wounds from a wyvern.)

Manticore's are actually fantastic Anti-tank. Compared to other AM options which will miss 50% of the time, a manticore is much more reliable. Especially combined with it's ordinance rule and ability to average two shots at Str10.

I just did the mathhammer on it...and the manticore is more likely to blow up Av13/14 with a single HIT than a lascannon. Add in that the Manticore is more likely to get a hit ontop of that, and that it ignore intervening models/terrain providing coversaves.

Further to this debate, I've always seen artillery as a way of softening up the enemy. A T1 barrage, followed by some careful Vanquisher and Exterminator shots could take out the worst of the threat rather quickly.

 Ailaros wrote:
But that's like saying that bolters are Ap5, and if you're using them for their Ap5, then you're using them against the wrong target, because the right target is AV10.

Basilisks and manticores are both middling against vehicles. What's different about them is that one can spread around more Ap4 blast, but the other is Ap3. The Ap is sort of the only thing that differentiates them.

Other than that basilisks can come in a squad of up to 3, and then a bunch of little stuff.

So then why not take a vanquisher for anti-tank, and wyverns for anti-infantry (since we BOTH know they're more dangerous against ANY infantry than a basalisk) and not bother with either of these mediocre weapons?

Good target for basilisks? Crisis suits teams. For single models, you'll want krak missiles or (more likely) lascannons. But if you can manage to get more than a couple hits, you've got a perfect target.

Still wouldn't take them outside of the Forgeworld artillery model, though.

Belly wrote:
Manticore's are actually fantastic Anti-tank. Compared to other AM options which will miss 50% of the time, a manticore is much more reliable. Especially combined with it's ordinance rule and ability to average two shots at Str10.

I just did the mathhammer on it...and the manticore is more likely to blow up Av13/14 with a single HIT than a lascannon. Add in that the Manticore is more likely to get a hit ontop of that, and that it ignore intervening models/terrain providing coversaves.

Did you consider that Lascanons have the option to be ordered to have tank hunters or ignore cover? Did you consider how many lascannons you can get for the price of a single manticore?

Belly wrote:I just did the mathhammer on it...and the manticore is more likely to blow up Av13/14 with a single HIT than a lascannon.

Only if it rolls 2 or more blasts, and both of them hit their target.

Plus, one is a 10 point upgrade to a unit you're already taking, and the other is a 160 point unit that clogs an HS slot.

Scipio Africanus wrote:So then why not take a vanquisher for anti-tank, and wyverns for anti-infantry (since we BOTH know they're more dangerous against ANY infantry than a basalisk) and not bother with either of these mediocre weapons?

Yeah, I'm really trying to think about it.

As best I can tell, they're going to be more useful in really low point games, where you can't afford specialists, and the really flimsy armor is going to be less of an issue, and you're less likely to see monstrous creatures, heavy vehicles, fliers, or terminators, and HS slots are going to be less scarce.

If anything, though, this is a representative of the larger problem with the new guard codex - large blast ordnance weapons are just way too expensive for all of the serious drawbacks they have. I'm hoping on 7th to change their rules. If ordnance gets universal ignores cover, or something, I might consider it, but right now, what else is it really going to excel at?

Plinking units behind an ADL?

Mavnas wrote:

Honestly, neither is great anti-tank. Sure, they will pen, but you could put a single lascannon shot into something cheaper and have a higher chance of blowing it up. In an edition of hull points, low RoF weapons aren't great anti-tank. When shooting at large targets like vehicles you lose most of the benefit of the large blast.

BS 3 Lascannons don't wow me. Even if you spend points twinlinking them, then orders giving them tank hunter or whatever combo you want to do (all of this of course costs points, so now you're in a comparable points range). Artillery has 4 distinct advantages over lascannons. Range - although not much, they can still put a hurt on turn 1, where a smart opponent won't just give you lascannon range on his vehicles. LoS - artillery ignores it, and it does lose some accuracy, you have a 1/3 chance to hit directly, then average 2d6 scatter is 7" I do believe, still a good chance of hitting the Larger Vehicles (Hard to miss a Land Raider with a large blast marker). Cover - Barrage hits side armor, and will prevent the opponent from taking cover saves a lot of the time. STR - Higher or comparable strength paired with ordnance gives you much better odds at penetrating armor than 1d6 +9 on front armor.

I play against a lot of mech and parking lots, I find them to be useful, if you don't then that's you.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
...?

Then what is the "right" target for a basilisk?

Armour, for the most part in my opinion.

Of course, you can turn a manticore against a lesser range of targets, and can't fire directly, but it doesn't make AP3 worthwhile. Also noteworthy is the move away from sv3+ towards cheaper! weaker armour that I'm sure everyone who's played a heldrake or riptide is aware of.

S9 AP 3 is that irritating "good enough for almost everything" value that's let down by its nigh-on uselessness against a 2+ save (you can't drown them in shots from it. And is stripped of its main target by weapons that do the job better (chem cannons, bale flamers and ion accelerators for infantry, and manticore for tanks.

Both the Manticore and Basilisk can fire direct.

 alarmingrick wrote:
Both the Manticore and Basilisk can fire direct.

No, neither can fire direct because "direct fire" is not a thing that exists in 6th edition.