USDA Wants Tacticool Machine Guns with Night Sights

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**Frazzled**

I never knew milk cows were so dangerous.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/14/Dept-Of-Agriculture-Orders-Submachine-Guns-With-30-Round-Magazines

A May 7th solicitation by the U.S. Department of Agriculture seeks "the commercial acquisition of submachine guns [in] .40 Cal. S&W."
According to the solicitation, the Dept. of Agriculture wants the guns to have an "ambidextrous safety, semiautomatic or 2 round [bursts] trigger group, Tritium night sights front and rear, rails for attachment of flashlight (front under fore group) and scope (top rear), stock collapsible or folding," and a "30 rd. capacity" magazine.

They also want the submachine guns to have a "sling," be "lightweight," and have an "oversized trigger guard for gloved operation."

The solicitation directs "all responsible and/or interested sources...[to] submit their company name, point of contact, and telephone." Companies that submit information in a "timely" fashion "shall be considered by the agency for contact to determine weapon suitability."

**curran12**

Ooyyy....

Talk about someone at the office with a military fetish. Yeesh this is ridiculous.

**Ahtman**

The only thing that seems odd about that is that the USDA wants them. Everything else seems reasonable. Cows need to be kept in check.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

All I need is my local PUD to have their own tactical team and I can finally start leaving my door unlocked with all this safety floating around!

**curran12**

Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
All I need is my local PUD to have their own tactical team and I can finally start leaving my door unlocked with all this safety floating around!

But if you do THAT, how can they kick it in to make sure you're safe?

**CthuluIsSpy**

Looks like someone in the office saw Black Sheep and thought it was a documentary.

**Jihadin**

Reverse your door.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

curran12 wrote:
Gentleman_Jellyfish wrote:
All I need is my local PUD to have their own tactical team and I can finally start leaving my door unlocked with all this safety floating around!

But if you do THAT, how can they kick it in to make sure you're safe?

They'll just charge me a $1,000 Convenience Fine. Somebody has to pay for all those unused battering rams!

**Dreadclaw69**

The funniest thing is that they are trying to resurrect the .40S&W round

Although the fact that they want firearms in this caliber (instead of the more common .45Cal or 9mm) seems oddly specific

So do people still think that we don't have a creeping militarization of US law enforcement?

**Frazzled**

I don't know what you're talking about. Every day we hear endless stories about USDA agents in gun battles across the heartland.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So do people still think that we don't have a creeping militarization of US law enforcement?

Haven't you heard about this epidemic of potato theft in Idaho? Of course this is needed!

**Frazzled**

What criminal statutes does the ISDA enforce again? How many no knock raids are they intending. Are the cartels getting into the lucrative corn products market?

**curran12**

Frazzled wrote:
What criminal statutes does the ISDA enforce again? How many no knock raids are they intending. Are the cartels getting into the lucrative corn products market?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTB3t1t7dk

They need to stop this.

**Gentleman_Jellyfish**

Frazzled wrote:
Are the cartels getting into the lucrative corn products market?

Government: Sure, that sounds scary enough

**d-usa**

Are we really going all out and make a point about "OMG, NIGHT SIGHTS" because of Tritium sights?

Frazzled wrote:
What criminal statutes does the ISDA enforce again? How many no knock raids are they intending. Are the cartels getting into the lucrative corn products market?

Well, a big one would the the US Forest Service:

Uniformed Law Enforcement Officers (LEOs) enforce federal laws and regulations governing national forest lands and resources. LEOs also enforce some or all state laws on National Forest Lands. As part of that mission, LEOs carry firearms, defensive equipment, make arrests, execute search warrants, complete reports, and testify in court. They establish a regular and recurring presence on a vast amount of public lands, roads, and recreation sites. The primary focus of their jobs is the protection of natural resources, protection of Forest Service employees and the protection of visitors. To cover the vast and varied terrain under their jurisdiction, they use Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptors, special service SUVs, horses, K-9 units, helicopters, snowmobiles, dirt bikes, and boats.

Special Agents are criminal investigators who plan and conduct investigations concerning possible violations of criminal and administrative provisions of the Forest Service and other statues under the United States Code. Special agents are normally plainclothes officers who carry concealed firearms, and other defensive equipment, make arrests, carry out complex criminal investigations, present cases for prosecution to U.S. Attorneys, and prepare investigative reports. All field agents are required to travel a great deal and usually maintain a case load of ten to fifteen ongoing criminal investigations at one time. Criminal investigators occasionally conduct internal and civil claim investigations.

**Dreadclaw69**

Ok, the Forest Service I can understand. But surely they are better served with an AR15 or equivalent in their vehicles. If they operate in forests and vast areas of land a rifle with an intermediate cartridge would better suit their role. The .40Cal round does't have the same range as a 5.56mm

**Frazzled**

Thats not the BLM or the Park Service? Jeeze how many Ranger RIcks are out there?

Oh wow it is part of the USDA. Thats just...weird.

But why do they need tacticool submachine guns again?

**d-usa**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Ok, the Forest Service I can understand. But surely they are better served with an AR15 or equivalent in their vehicles. If they operate in forests and vast areas of land a rifle with an intermediate cartridge would better suit their role. The .40Cal round does't have the same range as a 5.56mm

Well, I'm not one to argue the merits of different models. Maybe .40 will take stop tactical bear attacks better? Or maybe they want their own bullets that they will never have to share. Or maybe the person ordering is an idiot. Always a possibility. Most law enforcement agencies that I know use an AR15 as their rifle though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

But why do they need tacticool submachine guns again?

I don't know what their current issue firearms are.

Maybe they think that a submachine gun would be better than a full-size rifle in dense woodland terrain? Somebody who actually uses these things in a tactical situation would have to chime in there.

**Catyrpelius**

Frazzled wrote:
Thats not the BLM or the Park Service? Jeeze how many Ranger RIcks are out there?

Oh wow it is part of the USDA. Thats just...weird.

But why do they need tacticool submachine guns again?

Because they are easier to handle then a pistol.

It would actually be a pretty good weapon for someone that has to occasionally deal with aggresive large wildlife.

The only thing I find questionable is that they want a scope on the thing.

**Frazzled**

Carbine would be better. Shotgun would be better. Both have a decent chance of stopping bears and mountain lions. I wouldn't trust a pistol caliber submachine gun for that.

In actuality does anyone: 1) make submachine guns any more; 2) make one in .40 S&W? I'd bet bucks this is a bid tailored for a specified contractor.

**streamdragon**

Frazzled wrote:
Thats not the BLM or the Park Service? Jeeze how many Ranger RIcks are out there?

Oh wow it is part of the USDA. Thats just...weird.

But why do they need tacticool submachine guns again?

Because they need to shoot poachers in the face.

I don't know if that's what they actually do, but it's what they need to do, because frell poachers.

**d-usa**

Looks like the AR-15 is actually the designated duty-rifle for the Forest Service, so a submachine gun would most likely be a secondary rifle.

I know that I have read in multiple places that drug trading is increasing on federal land, and that in some parts there are now giant marijuana fields. So they might be trying to deal with stuff like that, although it would seem like that is DEA stuff (which brings us back to the 'so many agencies, so few actual laws to enforce' discussion)).

**streamdragon**

Frazzled wrote:
Carbine would be better. Shotgun would be better. Both have a decent chance of stopping bears and mountain lions. I wouldn't trust a pistol caliber submachine gun for that.

In actuality does anyone: 1) make submachine guns any more

MP5s are still used by DC law enforcement, and the P-90 is used by over 200 LE groups according to google.

**Catyrpelius**

Frazzled wrote:
Carbine would be better. Shotgun would be better. Both have a decent chance of stopping bears and mountain lions. I wouldn't trust a pistol caliber submachine gun for that.

In actuality does anyone: 1) make submachine guns any more; 2) make one in .40 S&W? I'd bet bucks this is a bid tailored for a specified contractor.

Generally I'd agree with you, but what I get out of reading their RFP is that their looking for something with minimal recoil which counts out a carbine or a shotgun.

My additional guess is that their looking for something that a large range of people and use and be quickly and cheaply trained with.

H&K is probably the most well known... However there RFP could also be interperated as them looking for a lightweight, semi-automatic, long gun that shoots a handgun round.

**Frazzled**

streamdragon wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Thats not the BLM or the Park Service? Jeeze how many Ranger RIcks are out there?

Oh wow it is part of the USDA. Thats just...weird.

But why do they need tacticool submachine guns again?

Because they need to shoot poachers in the face.

I don't know if that's what they actually do, but it's what they need to do, because frell poachers.

If you're going to shoot poachers in the face you want a carbine or rifle. Submachine gun is pistol range. The poacher is going to shoot you first.
I've seen Forestry guys in Alaska with shotguns because of bears. I can understand that. Submachine guns are only good at short range, against people. In a rural / wild environment its strictly WTF?

**hotsauceman1**

So, we advocate arming citizens, but not arming officers?

**d-usa**

streamdragon wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Carbine would be better. Shotgun would be better. Both have a decent chance of stopping bears and mountain lions. I wouldn't trust a pistol caliber submachine gun for that.

In actuality does anyone: 1) make submachine guns any more

MP5s are still used by DC law enforcement, and the P-90 is used by over 200 LE groups according to google.

Looks like the MP5 is one of the few models that is actually chambered for .40 as well. Maybe somebody in DC just leaned over to the other desk and asked "what gun are you guys using?".

Looks like Border Patrol uses the UMP40.

**Frazzled**

d-usa wrote:
Looks like the AR-15 is actually the designated duty-rifle for the Forest Service, so a submachine gun would most likely be a secondary rifle.

I can understand an AR -15. I can't understand submachine guns with night sights. Thats someone who saw a SWAT team and wants one.

**streamdragon**

d-usa wrote:
streamdragon wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Carbine would be better. Shotgun would be better. Both have a decent chance of stopping bears and mountain lions. I wouldn't trust a pistol caliber submachine gun for that.

In actuality does anyone: 1) make submachine guns any more

MP5s are still used by DC law enforcement, and the P-90 is used by over 200 LE groups according to google.

Looks like the MP5 is one of the few models that is actually chambered for .40 as well. Maybe somebody in DC just leaned over to the other desk and asked "what gun are you guys using?"/

I'm afraid you overestimate inter-agency communication in the federal government.:(

**Frazzled**

streamdragon wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Carbine would be better. Shotgun would be better. Both have a decent chance of stopping bears and mountain lions. I wouldn't trust a pistol caliber submachine gun for that.

In actuality does anyone: 1) make submachine guns any more

MP5s are still used by DC law enforcement, and the P-90 is used by over 200 LE groups according to google.

Thats my point. You said DC law enforcement. Thats urban designed for near/in house shooting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

hotsauceman1 wrote:
So, we advocate arming citizens, but not arming officers?

What?