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Just played in a local tourney recently with 16 players and the eldar came in the top 3. My Tau army got absolutely butchered. The three main problems were:

1. Wave Serpant spam

AV12, puts out more shots than a MBT with excellant range and strength and ignore cover/shred armor and has 4+ cover itself. Somebody rolls out 6 of these then they'll take apart whole squads easily. More importantly, the high armour value makes them totally immune to the weapons of tau troops. Having played Dark Eldar and considering the huge limitations to their vehicles its just an OP unit TBH; massively under-costed. Seriously I was getting sarcastic towards the end of the last battle and asking the guy if his wave serpant ignored invulnerable saves as well. Which he actually checked as well.

2. Seer council on jetbikes

2+ re-rollable armour saves. 2+ re-rollable cover saves. Can cross the entire board in one turn. Str7 re roll wounds. 4+ inv saves. Their own psychic shooting and bike weaponry.

3. Wraithknight

50/50 on this. In one battle I killed it in a single turn of shooting from a crisis team. But in another, it used its wraithcannon to instantly kill both my Riptides before going on to single handedly butcher the rest of my army.


A big problem I had with my army was that once you have used up your heavy support and elites slots the only thing you can buy is blobs of troops. This isn't a problem if the enemy also has infantry. But against an all mech army with transports immune to everything its impossible to beat. Again, IMO eldar are supposed to be an expensive fragile glasshammer and they just aren't...

My personal advice would be to not do anything for the next 2 weeks, wait for the new edition to drop, and then re-evaluate.

 slowthar wrote:
My personal advice would be to not do anything for the next 2 weeks, wait for the new edition to drop, and then re-evaluate.

Yeah, are they changing how cover saves work for skimmers and how many weapons they can fire in a single turn without snapshots?

You're Tau. The King of Screw Your Cover. I can see your other complaints, but cover saves?

Depends on the army. Some people play without pathfinders. I always find them to not be worth their cost, or slot when I can get XV9s.

I'm not gonna lie. I chuckled a bit to see a Tau player complaining about any other codex.

Seriously though. A couple of skyrays can help you with #1 and #3. I still dont know why people under utilize these.

As for the seer council, pucker that butt and hope for the bets....UNLESS they don't have the baron with them and then just tie em up with a riptide for a few turns and kill everything else or just hit em with AP and take cover away. And make sure to spread out, don't give them any multi-charges.

*Edit: oh and if you aren't bringing a lot of marker lights, then you are hamstringing yourself.

Indeed, I'd wait for the new rules and then think about it again.

As said elsewhere, there will be a rule change for skimmers. This could affect the damage output of the Serpents.

I had three squads of pathfinders but theres little to no sense marking them if the eldar shooting kills almost everything that can pierce their front armor in the first turn which is precisely what happened. Fire Warriors and kroot are next to useless as they can't get heavy weapons in their squads against AV12 vehicles. (That an eldar skimmer gets that armor is obscene BTW)

There were about 12 of them and they had those wound on 2+ weapons. Very much doubt a riptide could survive a turn of CC with them. Also, when your unit covers a third of the board its impossible to avoid a multi charge. Plus having cover means you are less likely to be able to boost your BS as well.

I don't own any skyrays. Monies. Same reason I don't have a third hammerhead.

I only have three elites choices so the amount of AP2 fire I can put out is very limited and the eldar player just pastes them in turn 1.



I fail to see what you're inferring. A riptide cannot demolish an entire army single handedly the way a Wraithknight can and is unable to instant kill monstrous creatures. In fact I have never seen a riptide do anything that wasn't a result of luck and it certainly isn't a game changer. I can't put my squads in devilfish that are immune to enemy fire and can fire a dozen ignore cover rending shots a turn. N I certainly can't give my battlesuits 2+ re-rollable armor saves, 2+ re rollable cover saves and give them that kind of mobility. Also, I need to actually use synergy to confer bonuses like improved BS and ignore cover with very fragile pathfinder units; I don't get such buffs automatically included in weapon stats or instantly passable psychic powers held by the toughest units in the codex. Eldar are a much more powerful codex than Tau.

Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

Is it wrong that I'm laughing at a Tau player having trouble?

 MWHistorian wrote:
Is it wrong that I'm laughing at a Tau player having trouble?

Only if you play Eldar. Otherwise, yuck it up, fuzzball.

 slowthar wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Is it wrong that I'm laughing at a Tau player having trouble?

Only if you play Eldar. Otherwise, yuck it up, fuzzball.

Exalted for Chewbacca reference on said actor's birthday.

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army. A single wave serpant puts out more fire power than a riptide and its a lot cheaper.



@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army. A single wave serpant puts out more fire power than a riptide and its a lot cheaper.



@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

No...just...no...

You are looking at this from the perspective of Tau and finding it amazing that your list can't roll Eldar as well. If you looked at this from any other armies perspective you would see why people are having a bit of fun at your expense. Yeah Eldar can be OP as hell, but so are Tau. You have ignores cover in spades, ridiculous amounts of high strength shooting, move-shoot-move shenanigans, and effective blob squads with some of the best synergy of any army. Not to mention the Riptide IS a game changer because I can tell you, nothing my Tyranids can do can get close to what a Riptide can do unless I want to blow $400+ to run the stupid Skyblight swarm to its full cheese.

TL;DR Eldar can be OP, so can Tau. You've never had to experience what it is like to be on the other side of a cheese Tau list so your perspective is a little out of whack.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army.


@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

How about "Overcharge", need to stay alive? 3++ Need to murder something? OP weapon mode engaged. Need to contest an objective or just get way over there? Trololol 3d6" movement in the assault phase.

The two don't even compare. Between the two, the Wraithknight breaks like fine china against any number of match ups, whereas the Riptide hides behind his shield. And lets not forget the options for sky fire, intercept, and the ability to overwatch with the rest of the damned army if its within 6".

And there are plenty of things that will murder a Wraithknight in CC that dont would get stuck chewing on a Riptide for a long time. Anything with poison attacks for instance.

A wraithknight does a few things better (like being immune to small arms fire (except for taus!), avoiding JWW, CC, and popping AV 13/14. But there are some many things that the Riptide does that the WraithKnight CAN'T EVEN DO, nevermind how OP it is when combined with marker lights.

 gardeth wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army.


@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

How about "Overcharge", need to stay alive? 3++ Need to murder something? OP weapon mode engaged. Need to contest an objective or just get way over there? Trololol 3d6" movement in the assault phase.

The two don't even compare. Between the two, the Wraithknight breaks like fine china against any number of match ups, whereas the Riptide hides behind his shield. And lets not forget the options for sky fire, intercept, and the ability to overwatch with the rest of the damned army if its within 6".

And there are plenty of things that will murder a Wraithknight in CC that dont would get stuck chewing on a Riptide for a long time. Anything with poison attacks for instance.

A wraithknight does a few things better (like being immune to small arms fire (except for taus!), avoiding JWW, CC, and popping AV 13/14. But there are some many things that the Riptide does that the WraithKnight CAN'T EVEN DO, nevermind how OP it is when combined with marker lights.

Over charge kills your riptide and always fails. Why would I use an ability that always back fires?

You have to get the first turn to activate it. If the enemy snipes you with an instant death weapon you can hardly have your 3+ shield on.

OP weapon mode. OMG 12 shots on a BS3 model. A wave serpant gets that many shots and all the other shinagins.

A riptide cannot instant kill 2 monstrous creatures, blow up two tanks and destroy entire squads.

I had three squads of fire warriors with full markerlights and a hammer head with ion cannon shooting at that wraithknight. It did nothing. Not one wound lost to a pulse rifle.


The only thing I have seen kill a Wraithknight is another game where I put 12 plasma and five fusion blaster rounds into it at BS5 with monster hunters. Even then, only just and he had a seer council anyway and the wave serpants took that squad apart in the next turn anyway.




Tau have ALWAYS had markerlights that ignored cover and boosted BS

Tau have ALWAYS had the jump pack rule

Tau have ALWAYS had str5 guns. Woopdie woo.

Tau were considered an obsolete army before 6th edition codex and its stupid to criticise elements that were always in the older codexes.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 gardeth wrote:
Coming from someone who plays in more tournament games than pickup games I can assure you that the Riptide is in a league of its own, while the Wraithknight is a nifty MC that can is extremely vunerable to numerous lists out there. Craftworld eldar vehicles have ALWAYS been armor 12 save for the lighter Vypers and War walkers. DE came much later and they own the glass cannon trophy.

How? It lacks the ranged damage output of the wraithknight. Is mediocre in close combat. Its only saving grace is that its a bit difficult to kill if you don't have an instant death weapon. A squad of crisis suits puts out much more damage than a riptide and you can only take 3 riptides in an army.


@ other guy

See the above list. If you think that its fair for Craftworld eldar to have instant death weapons, cheap transports that are impossible to kill and put out more shots than a main battle tank and 2+ re rollable armor, cover and super mobility; a cheap titan. Eldar are broken and OP. Tau are not.

How about "Overcharge", need to stay alive? 3++ Need to murder something? OP weapon mode engaged. Need to contest an objective or just get way over there? Trololol 3d6" movement in the assault phase.

The two don't even compare. Between the two, the Wraithknight breaks like fine china against any number of match ups, whereas the Riptide hides behind his shield. And lets not forget the options for sky fire, intercept, and the ability to overwatch with the rest of the damned army if its within 6".

And there are plenty of things that will murder a Wraithknight in CC that dont would get stuck chewing on a Riptide for a long time. Anything with poison attacks for instance.

A wraithknight does a few things better (like being immune to small arms fire (except for taus!), avoiding JWW, CC, and popping AV 13/14. But there are some many things that the Riptide does that the WraithKnight CAN'T EVEN DO, nevermind how OP it is when combined with marker lights.

Over charge kills your riptide and always fails. Why would I use an ability that always back fires?

You have to get the first turn to activate it. If the enemy snipes you with an instant death weapon you can hardly have your 3+ shield on.

OP weapon mode. OMG 12 shots on a BS3 model. A wave serpant gets that many shots and all the other shinagins.

A riptide cannot instant kill 2 monstrous creatures, blow up two tanks and destroy entire squads.

I had three squads of fire warriors with full markerlights and a hammer head with ion cannon shooting at that wraithknight. It did nothing. Not one wound lost to a pulse rifle.

Well heres your problem. Your taking an extreme limited sample and applying it universally. First off, hammerheads are meh. And which, praytell, Instant Death weapons are you getting sniped with fist turn? The wraithcannon that does it 1 out of 6 times? Also, saying that your overcharge ALWAYS fails is rather childish. If you roll a lot of 1s that means....you roll a lot of 1s, it doesnt mean that the ability isnt OP. Also, if your riptide is firing at BS 3 and not 5, thats your choice as marker lights fix that. And yes a riptide can kill (not insta perhaps) multiple monstrous creatures, multiple tanks, and various squads.

You've had some bad luck and are wanting to vent on the interwebs. Your limited experiences don't change the reality though.

The wraithknights wraithcannon killed two riptides by rolling 6s and I failed my invulnerable saves. One of these was first blood in the first turn.


The nova generator fails on a 2 and a 1. Thats a 1 in 3 chance, not a 1 in 6 chance. Thats a high chance of failure.

Markerlights require synergy. Unlike eldar I don't have the ability to self boost using instant pass psychic powers or have it in built into the unit. Also, a markerlight only has a range of 36 and a limited field of fire. It is hard to get markerlights on every unit of the board. So a riptide only has a BS of 3. You should never assume that they have BS5 because you COULD have markerlights on the unit.

Riptides are OP. If you don't see that, then I can't help you.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Riptides are OP. If you don't see that, then I can't help you.

They aren't. They do jack in every battle I fight. I ve seen trygons and carnifexs take apart armies, crisis suits blast apart enemy tanks and fire warriors wipe out whole squads of terminators with markerlights. The riptide is meh.

Ok, you just put Trygons and Carnifexes over Riptides, you are either a Troll or, well, best not to say.

Either way I'm done trying to convince you to stop making a fool of yourself.

 gardeth wrote:
Ok, you just put Trygons and Carnifexes over Riptides, you are either a Troll or, well, best not to say.

Either way I'm done trying to convince you to stop making a fool of yourself.

Those tyranid examples are from previous editions as a standard I set for a killie unit; which is the ability to wipe out whole units in a single turn of shooting or CC.

What you are saying makes no sense.

8 str6 ap4 shots at bs3 or 3 str7 ap2 shots at bs3

4 str5 ap5 shots at bs3

Or I roll a dice and lose a wound.

If I do pass

Wow I get an ordinance version...

Wow I get four extra shots and gets hot to lose even more wounds.


For the same price I can get a squad of crisis suits with plasma and fusion weapons with signiature systems to boost it. THAT can kill entire squads and tanks in a single turn.

Riptides cannot wipe out entire squads a turn, they at best cause a few negligible losses (this is with BS buffs) and just stand there trying to contest objectives. Woopie. So broken and over powered...

So to bring this back to your original post, you will never beat Eldar until you recognize the amazing units you have at your disposal and figure out how to use them properly.

Honestly, it sounds like you took a less-than-optimized list to a tournament & are complaining that your army (who, as a Tau player w/ all three of their codeci can tell you that this one is ridiculously OP) that has probably held up very well in the general meta got its poop pushed in by armies that were built specifically for that tourney. Deal.

People don't go to tourney's to 'have fun'. They go there to beat face & see who has the biggest wang. They don't care about fluff, your feelings or friendly gaming. They came there to stomp a mudhole in your arse & are going to bring the nastiest, meanest, most ridiculously OP units they have available to them to do it.

You have no right to complain - you didn't bring a tourney list to a tourney - your fault, not theirs. No army should EVER be recieving a cover save of any kind vs. Tau. Missilesides make serpents their playthings all day long w/o even breaking a sweat. Riptides eat low T/med/low armor save troops like candy. You brought a bad list, didn't use a key component of the Riptide because 'it never works' & then whine cuz no one here see's your side.

You got beat by a better playerusing a tourney list. Learn, adapt & move on.

~Vryce

 gardeth wrote:
So to bring this back to your original post, you will never beat Eldar until you recognize the amazing units you have at your disposal and figure out how to use them properly.

What amazing units?

I markerlight a wave serpant. Shoot it with riptide. It bounces off.

Do it again. Oh it blows up.

Oh wait. That wraithknight killed all of my riptides like it was piss in two shots and the crisis team is shredded by serpant spam.

Watches as rest of army splattered as guns cannot hurt anything in eldar army.

That game was over in two turns.



Okay. Cite me one example of a riptide doing something game changing and wiping out multiple units. What is the highest kill count you have ever had with a single riptide?


Nonesense. I came second in the last tournament and that had piss all to do with the riptide I took. That was railguns and crisis teams with markerlights all the way. The standard of players and tournie lists was no better or worse this year than last. All the riptide did was waddle around whilst idiot enemy players wasted their fire on killing "the big thing". The riptide is a waste of points.


Oh I use the stupid ability and it results in me losing 3 wounds every game to the reactor malfunction for next to no boost in damage output.

I have watched my ATC team mate take out an entire Space Marine bike list that stole the initiative from him with his Tau. His Riptides (2) where dropping entire units of bikes on their own.

My flying MC daemon army friggin hates Riptides as they can shoot me out of the frikking sky without even grounding me (happened a number of times).

Are Riptides great against wave serpent spam? YES, hit em with marker lights and then tear off their hullpoints with a overcharged burst cannon. If your roll that badly with overcharge get a friggin earth caste pilot upgrade to reroll that business. Dying to wraithknights constantly? Buy some damn shield drones.

Even with that serpent spam is a tough list for a lot of Tau armies, but thats ok. You know what a tough matchup is for a lot of armies??? Multiple Riptide tau!

Why not I'll write down what I took

1850pts army


HQ

Shadowsun with 2 drones (she joins the crisis team to give them 2+ cover save)


Elites

3xCrisis
1xshasvre
Puretide engram
3x tl plasma
3x fusion

Riptitde with gatling n sms n AA upgrades

Riptide with ion accelerator, fusion blaster n AA upgrades

Troops

3x squads of 10 fire warriors

2x squads of kroot with sniper rounds

Fast Attack

3x squads of 8 pathfinders

Heavy Support

Hammerhead with longstrike

Hammerhead with ion cannon

Sounds like you just have bad luck to me. Either that or you're exaggerating just to complain.

Riptides are nothing compared to the power that the Eldar Rangers bring to the table.

...what? I thought this was a gag post.

In all seriousness, it seems like you are hindering yourself heavily and going against tournament lists. Nobody will be happy in this situation if they don't realize that it is a crazy uphill battle if you think a couple experiences outweight the ACTUAL ability of the Riptide.

BS5 12 shots gatling

10 hits

5 wounds (1 rending)

2 wounds failed armour saves. (total 3)

That won't kill a bloodthirster in one turn. If you lost one it was his luck and your bad. Or he had a second tide.

BS5 3 shots str 7 ap2 ion

3 hits

2 wounds

1/2 wounds from inv save

Won't kill a thirster.


On a squad of marines

10 hits

8 wounds (lets be generous and say 2 rending)

4 failed armour saves

That 6 dead marines. Those are some really small squads you're fighting.

The blast could kill a squad of marines...but so could the Guards master of ordinance or any other ap3 ordinance weapon in the game. Its nothing special.