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I'm kind of curious seeing as how I haven't really been following a lot of rumors about 7th edition. How are Tau looking at the moment? I'm assuming they got worse (which i don't have much problem with honestly, I mean they were a little too good), but has anything majorly broken? Any pieces of war-gear or special rules no longer do anything? Any common strategies that have been rendered useless?

I don't make this thread in the mindset of "my army got nerfed", I sat through 4th and 5th edition where Tau were solidly bottom tier and had no issue with it because I love the little blue fish faced people. I'm just curious if the new rules have brought them more into line with other armies or if there's any new things I should be prepared for.

Well, right now the most of us are just nibbling at scraps of information until the book hits tomorrow (for me anyway :p ) but I don't believe there are changes that really single out Tau. There are the system-wide changes like Unbound which may stir the pot a bit for Tau, but that will hit everyone for that as well. Likewise, vehicles are slightly more difficult to pop in one shot now, but again that's for everyone. For now though, that is the best I can tell ya, though I'm sure someone who has a book might be in to correct or fill us in.

Independent Characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures.

Riptide smash attacks are a single attack now.

Nightfighting rules have changed but blacksun filters are still good.

Devilfish can score now and benefit from the new damage table.

Area terrain is gone so you can't "toe in" to get cover saves.

They can't ally in farseers , nor joing buffmanders to riptides. intereceptor and skyfire got changed too . GW seem to hate tau in 7th , which is odd , because eldar were better then tau and GW didn't change them much , if anything eldar got buffed.

I have the book in hand (picked up my copy last night) and so far, the only major thing is the changing of the Allies Matrix, which makes Tau/Eldar an alliance of convenience - meaning Tau once again have no access to Psykers that can actually buff them.

Edit: There are some more changes that people have mentioned, but they kind of affect things I never do as a Tau player, so YMMV.

Imagine a world in which scoring Broadsides and Pathfinders control objectives as they provide fire support and Markerlights for squads of Firewarriors that ride in Devilfish with 3+ cover saves. As they close with the enemy the Firewarriors disembark , pouring pulse fire and throwing photon grenades at their target, killing many and leaving the survivors Blinded and Pinned. The Devilfish then use their Flat Out move to position themselves between the Firewarriors and any retaliatory strike.

That's what this edition is doing for Tau. Yes there are a few losses (no more buffmander-tide or shadow-tide cheese and jinking Hammerheads will require more Markerlight support) but overall things got better for Tau in my opinion.

Makumba wrote:
intereceptor and skyfire got changed too

This is about the only one of these changes that is really interesting me so far. I don't do a lot of the other stuff people are talking about (my "beat stick" is Shadowsun and 3 XV9s), so most of the changes won't do anything for me.

Also, about eldar, I heard something about jink saves being changed and that making wave serpents worse. That's not really the point of this thread (and since I don't play any eldar players it doesn't really matter to me) but maybe it's something?

 D6Damager wrote:
Independent Characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures.

Riptide smash attacks are a single attack now.

Nightfighting rules have changed but blacksun filters are still good.

Devilfish can score now and benefit from the new damage table.

Area terrain is gone so you can't "toe in" to get cover saves.

You forgot the all important "all units are scoring".

Case in point: in an 1850 list, I generally tried to always bring at least 4 troops for scoring purposes. Being Tau, this means either Kroot (I don't own any) or Firewarriors. Occassionally, I would ally in Farsight Enclaves to make my crisis suits scoring.

That's not a problem anymore. I can now bring the bare minimum of two 6 man squads of Firewarriors (in Devilfish, now that vehicles are scoring), and rely on my Crisis suits/stealth suits for downfield objective scoring.

In addition, now my Broadsides, Riptides, tanks, etc. are all scoring as well, making my backfield objectives even easier to hold.

TLDR; Less troops = more elites = more firepower overall.

But the caveat to "all things score" Madman, is the advantage that Battle-forged Troops choices get in that they take priority when scoring, and cannot be contested except by other Battle-forged Troops choices afaik.

 curran12 wrote:
But the caveat to "all things score" Madman, is the advantage that Battle-forged Troops choices get in that they take priority when scoring, and cannot be contested except by other Battle-forged Troops choices afaik.

True, but how many troop units will be alive at the end of the game when that Battle Forged army faces the other type?

 curran12 wrote:
But the caveat to "all things score" Madman, is the advantage that Battle-forged Troops choices get in that they take priority when scoring, and cannot be contested except by other Battle-forged Troops choices afaik.

Yeah, that's true. But honestly, on average, an elite unit will wipe out a troops choice. 10 Tactical marines don't stand a chance against my 3 Tau suits with twin plasma rifles and markerlight support. Or my riptide with nova cannon.

Obviously, this is a situational thing, but generally speaking the extreme firepower should be able to make up for it.

 kronk wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
But the caveat to "all things score" Madman, is the advantage that Battle-forged Troops choices get in that they take priority when scoring, and cannot be contested except by other Battle-forged Troops choices afaik.

True, but how many troop units will be alive at the end of the game when that Battle Forged army faces the other type?

I am plenty confident in a number of Troops choices' ability to stay alive through a game, let me throw out a few examples:

Fearless 15 to 20-model Sisters or CSM squad. Sure they can be shot up just as bad, but given their relative cheapness and the presence of other threats, putting enough firepower to drop one, let alone two, is not a garanteed thing.

Backfield gaunts and/or Tervigon gaunts. Same thing applies, they are plenty easy to kill, but while the super elites are wasting shots on that, everything else is peeling them down weaker and weaker.

Guard combined infantry squads, also fearless from a priest. Same thing as the gaunts, you can tear out big pieces of them, but there are plenty more where that came from.

The always reliable horde of Ork Boyz, again easy enough to blow up, but wasted shots when given the size of a horde army.


Want me to keep going?

I'm also liking the fact that devilfish might actually be good now. I love me some fire warrior gunline, but it always kind of annoyed me that my "rapid response cadre" needed a bunch of foot infantry units in the back while the battlesuits ran around the field.

I know ICs can no longer join MCs so the OVesa Star took a bit of a hit.

bout all i know of that has immediate impact.

 D6Damager wrote:
Independent Characters can no longer join Monstrous Creatures.

Riptide smash attacks are a single attack now.

Nightfighting rules have changed but blacksun filters are still good.

Devilfish can score now and benefit from the new damage table.

Area terrain is gone so you can't "toe in" to get cover saves.

Yay, my 80 point mediocre transport won't get insta-killed!

 curran12 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
But the caveat to "all things score" Madman, is the advantage that Battle-forged Troops choices get in that they take priority when scoring, and cannot be contested except by other Battle-forged Troops choices afaik.

True, but how many troop units will be alive at the end of the game when that Battle Forged army faces the other type?

I am plenty confident in a number of Troops choices' ability to stay alive through a game, let me throw out a few examples:

Fearless 15 to 20-model Sisters or CSM squad. Sure they can be shot up just as bad, but given their relative cheapness and the presence of other threats, putting enough firepower to drop one, let alone two, is not a garanteed thing.

Backfield gaunts and/or Tervigon gaunts. Same thing applies, they are plenty easy to kill, but while the super elites are wasting shots on that, everything else is peeling them down weaker and weaker.

Guard combined infantry squads, also fearless from a priest. Same thing as the gaunts, you can tear out big pieces of them, but there are plenty more where that came from.

The always reliable horde of Ork Boyz, again easy enough to blow up, but wasted shots when given the size of a horde army.


Want me to keep going?

Yes, please do. The thing you aren't seeing is that those units are exactly the same as they were in 6th. They were still there, and Tau still had to deal with those same things. The only change is that now the Tau have more points in more powerful units to spend on more firepower to deal with the same units.

It's not like I was magically knocking out that huge Gaunt blob with my Firewarrios in 6th. I was still killing that blob with my elites in 6th, but now in 7th, I have *more* elites, while the troops are still accomplishing the same thing, just cheaper.

Edit: To wit, this applies to every army. My GK are thrilled that all of their Dreadknights are now scoring without have to pay for Mordrak. It's like a bonus 400 points to add to the army.

It's always been fire warriors with an Ethereal that have done most of my troop-sweeping. Tau elites are just too good at killing hard targets...

I have had fun with XV9s for troop killing.

And simultaneously, the Tau are losing durability for it. And when I say durability, I do not mean in terms of toughness or saves or any of that, I mean in terms that they are going into the drawback of being a very elite army. I don't have the points handy, so this is going to be rather quick and dirty, apologies in advance for it not being 100% points-accurate, but I think this example will help explain what I mean:

Let's say that, in going to Unbound you swap out a Fire Warrior squad for another Crisis Suit team. Think about the wider context of the battle here, you have more guns and more elite guys, yes, but you also have made it so that you have less guys as well. Every casualty is considerably more costly to you than it was with easier-to-kill-but-resilient-as-a-unit troops choices. You are absolutely right in that they can gun down squads very effectively, but just like the models they are also getting stuck into the trap of quality over quantity. Now quality does have a place, but I'm much happier facing a smaller number of hard-hitting guns than a bristling gunline with TONS of shots. You are getting great at killing other big, elite things, but to get that, you are lessening your ability to effectively deal with larger numbers.

That is my point as a whole. Going heavy in elites is not a BAD idea, but to think of it as the ONLY idea is shortsighted.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I have had fun with XV9s for troop killing.

Yes. So much yes. Give them all advanced targeting systems. No heavy weapon is safe!

 curran12 wrote:
And simultaneously, the Tau are losing durability for it. And when I say durability, I do not mean in terms of toughness or saves or any of that, I mean in terms that they are going into the drawback of being a very elite army. I don't have the points handy, so this is going to be rather quick and dirty, apologies in advance for it not being 100% points-accurate, but I think this example will help explain what I mean:

Let's say that, in going to Unbound you swap out a Fire Warrior squad for another Crisis Suit team. Think about the wider context of the battle here, you have more guns and more elite guys, yes, but you also have made it so that you have less guys as well. Every casualty is considerably more costly to you than it was with easier-to-kill-but-resilient-as-a-unit troops choices. You are absolutely right in that they can gun down squads very effectively, but just like the models they are also getting stuck into the trap of quality over quantity. Now quality does have a place, but I'm much happier facing a smaller number of hard-hitting guns than a bristling gunline with TONS of shots. You are getting great at killing other big, elite things, but to get that, you are lessening your ability to effectively deal with larger numbers.

That is my point as a whole. Going heavy in elites is not a BAD idea, but to think of it as the ONLY idea is shortsighted.

Oh, no no no. Don't misunderstand, it's certainly not the ONLY way. There's nothing wrong with gunline Tau, troops aplenty. But I'm not even talking about Unbound. I'm talking about standard FOC. Two minimum troops, 6 man each, in Devilfish. Both the 6 man troops can score as per usual, they just hop out on an objective that you clear with your elites. But now the Devilfish score too! And the crisis suits! And they're durable, hiding in tin cans with great cover saves!

As far as using elites to kill large mobs, that has never been an issue. One of my favorite units to run is a 3 man crisis suit team with dual missile pods each, and a commander with CnC and Spectrum. 12 twinlinked S7 AP4 shots that ignore cover at 36" and can hop in and out of cover and use an Iridium suit to tank. Works miracles.

Makumba wrote:
They can't ally in farseers , nor joing buffmanders to riptides. intereceptor and skyfire got changed too . GW seem to hate tau in 7th , which is odd , because eldar were better then tau and GW didn't change them much , if anything eldar got buffed.

Eldar lost area terrain effects as well, New jink becoming snap shots nerfs eldar skimmers, the smash attack wasn't too much a big deal though as wraithknights and wraithlords have 10 str anyways but it does effect the avatar (which admittedly pretty much nobody uses)

MadmanMSU wrote:


Oh, no no no. Don't misunderstand, it's certainly not the ONLY way. There's nothing wrong with gunline Tau, troops aplenty. But I'm not even talking about Unbound. I'm talking about standard FOC. Two minimum troops, 6 man each, in Devilfish. Both the 6 man troops can score as per usual, they just hop out on an objective that you clear with your elites. But now the Devilfish score too! And the crisis suits! And they're durable, hiding in tin cans with great cover saves!

As far as using elites to kill large mobs, that has never been an issue. One of my favorite units to run is a 3 man crisis suit team with dual missile pods each, and a commander with CnC and Spectrum. 12 twinlinked S7 AP4 shots that ignore cover at 36" and can hop in and out of cover. Works miracles.

I admit, the broadening of scoring units, including vehicles, makes me wonder if this will spark a renaissance of mechanized armies. Given the combination of harder to one-shot vehicles and their increased scoring value, I could see it happening. And what you talk about makes plenty of sense in gameplay, that seems a viable plan, which to me is a good thing for the edition. Meanwhile, my Sisters' approach to this edition, at least based on what I know is very much to keep to my usual strategy of moving forward with heavy infantry, and then use outflanking and deepstriking units to encircle the enemy as it comes out to meet me. I'd say that you can't sweep me off an objective if your suits are full of holes, and you say that you can out maneuver and your individual firepower is better, but that is why we play the game, eh?

And those missile pods...while I get my 3+ those things are just rude. (in all fun of course)

 curran12 wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:


Oh, no no no. Don't misunderstand, it's certainly not the ONLY way. There's nothing wrong with gunline Tau, troops aplenty. But I'm not even talking about Unbound. I'm talking about standard FOC. Two minimum troops, 6 man each, in Devilfish. Both the 6 man troops can score as per usual, they just hop out on an objective that you clear with your elites. But now the Devilfish score too! And the crisis suits! And they're durable, hiding in tin cans with great cover saves!

As far as using elites to kill large mobs, that has never been an issue. One of my favorite units to run is a 3 man crisis suit team with dual missile pods each, and a commander with CnC and Spectrum. 12 twinlinked S7 AP4 shots that ignore cover at 36" and can hop in and out of cover. Works miracles.

I admit, the broadening of scoring units, including vehicles, makes me wonder if this will spark a renaissance of mechanized armies. Given the combination of harder to one-shot vehicles and their increased scoring value, I could see it happening. And what you talk about makes plenty of sense in gameplay, that seems a viable plan, which to me is a good thing for the edition. Meanwhile, my Sisters' approach to this edition, at least based on what I know is very much to keep to my usual strategy of moving forward with heavy infantry, and then use outflanking and deepstriking units to encircle the enemy as it comes out to meet me. I'd say that you can't sweep me off an objective if your suits are full of holes, and you say that you can out maneuver and your individual firepower is better, but that is why we play the game, eh?

And those missile pods...while I get my 3+ those things are just rude. (in all fun of course)

Sure sure. And like I said, this isn't limited to Tau either. You ever played against a GK list that has two teleporting Dreadknights with S6 AP4 torrent flamers and strikes at S10 in melee? Well, now I don't have to bring Mordrak to make them scoring, so it just got upped to three Dreadknights.

The "everything scores" is the biggest change in 7th, hands down.

Correct me if I am wrong, but couldn't any Grey Knight Grand Master make the Knights scoring? What does Mordrak do that others don't? I haven't looked at the GK codex in a very very long time.

 curran12 wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but couldn't any Grey Knight Grand Master make the Knights scoring? What does Mordrak do that others don't? I haven't looked at the GK codex in a very very long time.

Yes. I just used Mordrak because he has a no scatter deep strike on Turn 1. Any Grand Master can do it as well. The whole list is predicated on an "alpha strike" philosophy. Dreadknights + Mordrak + Terminators in your face on turn 1. You get one turn before everything assaults and obliterates.

It just a gimmick list. Fun, usually effective, occasionally a complete fail. I did play against a similar list in a 6th tournament though with my Necron air.

Ahh okay. I was trying to figure out what Mordrak had. In the brief time that I flirted with playing GK, I avoided Mordrak because I thought the ghost knights were silly.

Kinda funny, people were screaming OMG 9 RIPTIDE LISTS UNBOUND WOOOOO and neglected the no battle brothers with psykers or buffmanders to attach to. Riptides now fend for themselves, or only take ML support.

Which is fine by me i never spam riptides anyway. The one i always seem to field is usually my AP2 source, not the backbone of my army. I admit ive done the HBC Riptide + Buffmander, but i kinda dont like it because if i happen to face something that can kill the riptide or the buffmander fairly easy then thats ~500pts down the drain quick lol

Anxious to get my hands on the rulebook. The new psyker phase scares the bejebus outta me if i gauge it off the rumors and tidbits of info released, but i cant believe they'd make non-psyker armies basically autolose so there HAS to be something were missing to balance it out.

There is, Vineheart.

It is much like the magic phases of Fantasy, where even without casters/psykers, you have a level of defense to stop any psychic power, not just ones that are attacking you. Likewise, the difficulty of casting powers has raised, and the amount of casting that can be done is dependent on the number of dice they get.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Kinda funny, people were screaming OMG 9 RIPTIDE LISTS UNBOUND WOOOOO and neglected the no battle brothers with psykers or buffmanders to attach to. Riptides now fend for themselves, or only take ML support.

Which is fine by me i never spam riptides anyway. The one i always seem to field is usually my AP2 source, not the backbone of my army. I admit ive done the HBC Riptide + Buffmander, but i kinda dont like it because if i happen to face something that can kill the riptide or the buffmander fairly easy then thats ~500pts down the drain quick lol

Anxious to get my hands on the rulebook. The new psyker phase scares the bejebus outta me if i gauge it off the rumors and tidbits of info released, but i cant believe they'd make non-psyker armies basically autolose so there HAS to be something were missing to balance it out.

Don't stress on it. The psyker phase is, in reality, a huge nerf to psykers. You're going to see a lot less spells being cast and a lot more perils, all from the change in dice probabilities.