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So some Supplements have allowed us to Ally With ourselves, and the SM codex can do it in their book.... but how is that possible now? Pg 122 of the new book says for an Allied detachment All units must have a different faction....

Are they considered NOT an ALLIED detachment, and just a COMBINED ARMS detachment? Where does this self allying bit come in? Im just not getting it...

Good question, I was confused by that as well. I think you are right.

All references are to ibook page numbers.

Pg 569 "Core Detachments - these can be included in any Battle Forged army."

Pg 562 - "You can include any type and number of detachments in a battleforged army providing you have sufficient units."

So what happens is if you are allying with yourself, you have to take 2 Combined Arms Detachments, (which means you have to take HQ and 2 troops in EACH CAD). Of these, you select one HQ as your warlord. The CAD containing the warlord is your "Primary Detachment" and can take "Ideal Mission Commander".

In theory, you could have as many CAD as you like plus as many allies as you like, as long as they fit to the relevant detachment FOC on pg 569. You can, I think, also take formations as well, on top.

Interestingly, you can pick any "character" model to be your warlord unless you have no characters.

So, you could theoretically pick a sarge as your warlord!

I'd like to know 2 things:

1. Do ALL CA Detachments must come from the same faction, or only the units PER CA Detachment? Can I have a "Primary" Detachment of SM and another of Dark Angels, without resorting to an Allied Detachment?

2. If you use a CA Detachment for your main codex and another for your supplement, can you pick relics from each? Example: Iron Hands and Raukaan - can I have a CM with Shield Eternal and another CM with Gorgon's Chain, each being an HQ for separate CA Detachments? Or is everything treated as one big army (thus restricting to one Relic table)?

1. I think all CA detachments have to have the same faction as your Primary Detachment (which is where your warlord is). So, if your Primary Detachment is SM, then all SM detachments (of which you can have as many as you like) would follow CAD, but anything from a different faction has to follow Ally FOC.

2. From the rulebook it seems that each detachment is treated separately. However, you can't have more than 1 unique character in the entire Army, not sure if that follows to wargear.

MarkCron wrote:
1. I think all CA detachments have to have the same faction as your Primary Detachment (which is where your warlord is). So, if your Primary Detachment is SM, then all SM detachments (of which you can have as many as you like) would follow CAD, but anything from a different faction has to follow Ally FOC.

2. From the rulebook it seems that each detachment is treated separately. However, you can't have more than 1 unique character in the entire Army, not sure if that follows to wargear.

1. Guessed as much

2. Great! Thanks for answering.
Tau + Farsight + Allies + Formations... yummy

Actually the only restriction in place is that each unit in a detachment is from the same faction.

The army however can be made up of detachments from any faction and this is specificly stated.

So you could legally field 3 detachments such as orks, tau and chaos marines.

Unbound is effectively meaningless other than removing the troop tax.

SeanDrake wrote:
Actually the only restriction in place is that each unit in a detachment is from the same faction.

The army however can be made up of detachments from any faction and this is specificly stated.

So you could legally field 3 detachments such as orks, tau and chaos marines.

Unbound is effectively meaningless other than removing the troop tax.

Is that it? Oh my!

If I mix-match units from supplements and codex in the same detachment, can I pick relics from both books? The aforementioned CM relic situation, but each using the 2 HQ slots in the same detachment, instead of needing 2 different detachments

And about that restriction of Space Marines... can you have normal detachments of Ultramarines and Black Templars, or the other one must be allied?

SeanDrake wrote:
Actually the only restriction in place is that each unit in a detachment is from the same faction.

Agree that all units in a detachment have to be from the same faction. However, allied detachments have a very different FOC to a CAD (single elites, HS, FA, no fortification, no lord of war)

SeanDrake wrote:
The army however can be made up of detachments from any faction and this is specificly stated.

Yep, but even unbound armies have to comply with the effects of the ally table.

SeanDrake wrote:
So you could legally field 3 detachments such as orks, tau and chaos marines.

As long as you have 1 CAD and the other 2 as allied detachments, then it would still be battle forged. Otherwise, you are unbound.

SeanDrake wrote:
Unbound is effectively meaningless other than removing the troop tax.

No, it isn't. Unbound removes "objective secured" which makes a big difference in all the Maelstrom missions. Also, even if you are unbound, your army is still subject to ally effects, so you'd possibly end up with "one eye open" tests everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vector Strike wrote:

SeanDrake wrote:
Actually the only restriction in place is that each unit in a detachment is from the same faction.

The army however can be made up of detachments from any faction and this is specificly stated.

So you could legally field 3 detachments such as orks, tau and chaos marines.

Unbound is effectively meaningless other than removing the troop tax.

Is that it? Oh my!

If I mix-match units from supplements and codex in the same detachment, can I pick relics from both books? The aforementioned CM relic situation, but each using the 2 HQ slots in the same detachment, instead of needing 2 different detachments

And about that restriction of Space Marines... can you have normal detachments of Ultramarines and Black Templars, or the other one must be allied?

You can't mix and match different factions in a single detachment in a battle forged army.

Re factions as BT are in the SM codex, they are the same faction, so you should be able to mix and match in a single detachment (which could be CAD).

There is no mention one way or the other about relics and they core and supplement in same detachment is a little fuzzy, as the wording would imply this is possible but not sure if intentional.

As for the marines yes rainbow marines are go, I am working on a list with iron hands providing the iwnd armour and dreads, bt's providing the assault troops to come out of the iwnd land raiders, supported by imperial fist objective holders and some grey knights to provide psychic support.

SeanDrake wrote:
There is no mention one way or the other about relics and they core and supplement in same detachment is a little fuzzy, as the wording would imply this is possible but not sure if intentional.

ibook pg 562 para 2, second sentence "In the case of codex supplements, the Faction of all the units described in that publication is the same as the codex it is a supplement of."

That seems pretty clear?

MarkCron wrote:
You can't mix and match different factions in a single detachment in a battle forged army.

Re factions as BT are in the SM codex, they are the same faction, so you should be able to mix and match in a single detachment (which could be CAD).

Ok. But what I meant was if a codex and its supplement can use the 2 relic tables, even if using only 1 detachment

 Vector Strike wrote:

MarkCron wrote:
You can't mix and match different factions in a single detachment in a battle forged army.

Re factions as BT are in the SM codex, they are the same faction, so you should be able to mix and match in a single detachment (which could be CAD).

Ok. But what I meant was if a codex and its supplement can use the 2 relic tables, even if using only 1 detachment

If you are specifically allowed to take a relic for a unit/character, why would you not be able to take them here? Not exactly sure how the SM codex works, but most units have purchase prices or options - as long as you comply with those for the unit and don't break any generic Codex restriction (g the Cron codex specifically says that only one cryptek in a Royal Court can take unique wargear) and don't duplicate unique characters, you are golden.

I think the point is, it looks like you can take units from supplements in a detatchment otherwise made from the parent codex (or a different suppliment). As a horrible example, one chapter master with the shield eternal and another with the chains of the gorgon.

This would make up for not being able to ally with yourself, but is strange and doesn't feel right.

MarkCron wrote:If you are specifically allowed to take a relic for a unit/character, why would you not be able to take them here? Not exactly sure how the SM codex works, but most units have purchase prices or options - as long as you comply with those for the unit and don't break any generic Codex restriction (g the Cron codex specifically says that only one cryptek in a Royal Court can take unique wargear) and don't duplicate unique characters, you are golden.

It's because a supplement's relic list specifically forbids a model to pick wargear from the codex's relic list, forcing it to use the supplement's.

Captyn_Bob wrote:I think the point is, it looks like you can take units from supplements in a detatchment otherwise made from the parent codex (or a different suppliment). As a horrible example, one chapter master with the shield eternal and another with the chains of the gorgon.

This would make up for not being able to ally with yourself, but is strange and doesn't feel right.

yeah, exactly! i don't know if I can do that in one detachment or if I need another one

Ok, so Ive been a little confused about how detachments work.
It seems like I cant take the allies detachment made of an army (faction) that is the same as my primary combined arms detachment but what I can do instead is take two combined arms detachments from the same codex (say two combined arms detachments of orks) and nominate which combined arms detachment has my warlord and it becomes the primary detachment and is still considered a battle forged army. Is this correct?

Chosen Praetorian wrote:
Ok, so Ive been a little confused about how detachments work.
It seems like I cant take the allies detachment made of an army (faction) that is the same as my primary combined arms detachment but what I can do instead is take two combined arms detachments from the same codex (say two combined arms detachments of orks) and nominate which combined arms detachment has my warlord and it becomes the primary detachment and is still considered a battle forged army. Is this correct?

I'm leaning to believe that's the way to do it

Keep in mind you don't HAVE to use the allied detachment for your allies. You can use another combined arms detachment to ally space marines with AM or Elder or whatever. They still follow all of the rules for allies, you just can take more units instead of the single elite/fast attack/heavy support available in the Allied Detachment FOC (but you have more compulsory units).

Im just confused as to why you are listed as Battle Brothers with yourself on the chart if allying with yourself isn't really viable... Wouldn't the blacked out square fit better? Since youre never ALLYING with yourself youre Detaching yourself?

Guh. I don't know why I even bother, I don't ally anyways.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Im just confused as to why you are listed as Battle Brothers with yourself on the chart if allying with yourself isn't really viable... Wouldn't the blacked out square fit better? Since youre never ALLYING with yourself youre Detaching yourself?

Guh. I don't know why I even bother, I don't ally anyways.

Its so you can put ICs from one detachment of the same faction in with units from the other faction. Example: CA detachment 1 is space marines with lots of transports. CA detachment 2 is space marines with 2 ICs that can ride in CAD 1's transports and join their squads.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Keep in mind you don't HAVE to use the allied detachment for your allies. You can use another combined arms detachment to ally space marines with AM or Elder or whatever. They still follow all of the rules for allies, you just can take more units instead of the single elite/fast attack/heavy support available in the Allied Detachment FOC (but you have more compulsory units).

But then what's the point of an Allied detach? With +1 Troops I get +3 HS, EL and FA per CAD.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Keep in mind you don't HAVE to use the allied detachment for your allies. You can use another combined arms detachment to ally space marines with AM or Elder or whatever. They still follow all of the rules for allies, you just can take more units instead of the single elite/fast attack/heavy support available in the Allied Detachment FOC (but you have more compulsory units).

But then what's the point of an Allied detach? With +1 Troops I get +3 HS, EL and FA per CAD.

Allies are everything else not included the Primary Army's Faction.

The point of allies is you have a reduction in cost e.g. You only beed one troop not two saving points becuase you say might only want a ravager from dark eldar but if you wanted two ravagers you take them as a CAD but have to pay the extra tax of another troop choice.

Now being battle brothers with yourself is easy the double forcr org is gone so now meaning the best way to do it was making you battle brothers with yourself which has pretty much no negative effect.

Relics can only be taken by the models using that codex / suppliment so yeh you can get two relic tables but on the appropraite model can use it

Also the second CAD doesnt have to be the same faction as the first so you can have one CAD as Eldar and then another CAD (dark eldar)

Codex: Space Marines has an exception within Codex: Space Marines to allow the codex to ally with themselves, with the requirement being that they use different Chapter Tactics.

You don't really need to worry about the semantics of "allies", just create any multiple detachments(CADs) of what ever army you'd like. Don't really need Allies.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So some Supplements have allowed us to Ally With ourselves, and the SM codex can do it in their book.... but how is that possible now? Pg 122 of the new book says for an Allied detachment All units must have a different faction....

Are they considered NOT an ALLIED detachment, and just a COMBINED ARMS detachment? Where does this self allying bit come in? Im just not getting it...

As far as codex Space Marines is concerned, based on page 77 of the codex its best to treat each chapter tactic as its own faction. This would mean that You can make a single combined armes detachment from several different chapters that have the same chapter tactics and also take an allied detachment made up of several different chapters that all share a chapter tactic that is not the same as the one used in your primary detachment.

Marines can thus do this:

Primary detatchment:
1 HQ of white scars
1 HQ of Raven guard
2 troops
CA detatchment:
1HQ of Clan Rakauun
1HQ of Sentinals of Terra
2 troops
Allied Detatchment:
1HQ of Ultramarines
1troop
Allied Inquisitorial detatchment:
1 inquisitor
Allied Knight detatchment:
1 knight




You can also take as many other CA detatchments as you would like, as long as they have 1 HQ and 2 Troops.



In other armies your detatchments can only be taken from a single codex each, but Space marines can take 2 chapter tactics per detatchment as per the codex.

Eihnlazer wrote:
CA detatchment:
1HQ of Clan Rakauun
1HQ of Sentinals of Terra
2 troops

This is illegal for two reasons.

1. Per the Clan Raukaan rules, a detachment using that supplement may only use the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics.
2. Per the Sentinels of Terra rules, you can only use a single Supplement within a detachment.

From what I see in the rules, some folks here (notably Mark Cron) seem to inserting rules that are not present.


There is nothing written in the rules that says all CA detachments need to be from the same faction.
The only restriction, is that any time you use the allied FOC, it must be a different faction than the faction used in the Primary CA detachment.

Please note: I am *only* talking from a BBB standpoint, the individual codices may provide additional restrictions or additional permissions.

From *just* the BBB, the following is allowed.

Primary Combined Armed Detachment:
1 HQ from CSM
1HQ from Black Legion
1 troop from CSM
1 troop from Crimson Slaughter

Additional CA detachment
1 HQ from Crimson Slaughter
2 troops from Black legion
1 FA from CSM
1 FA from Crimson Slaughter

Additional CA detachment
1 HQ from Dark Angels
2 troopos from DA

Additional CA detachment
1 Tau HQ
1 Farsight HQ
2 troops Farsight
1 HS Tau

First Allied detachment
1 Eldar HQ
2 Iyandan Troops
1 Eldar Elites

Additional Allied detachment
1 Tyranid HQ
2 tyranid troops


The only thing you *can't* do:
Additional allied detachment
1 Black Legion HQ
2 CSM troops



There is nothing stopping you from having multiple CA detachments from *any* codex you want, same faction, different faction, battle bros, CtA enemies.... nothing.

You can also take as many allies that you want, from any codex *except* ones from the same faction.

Your right happy, but you could easily swap it to Clan Raukaan swapping the with raven guard in the first detatchment and coming out the the same thing.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Your right happy, but you could easily swap it to Clan Raukaan swapping the with raven guard in the first detatchment and coming out the the same thing.

Except your first detachment would be locked into Iron Hands CT, so you would not be able to take a WS HQ.