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Shingen wrote:

2. Vect, Dais, 9x Fire Dragons - Again this is a simple one, 9 Fusion shots and Vects S10 shot, if that doesnt work you can always jump out and use your Melta Bombs as well in CC, and Vects Haywire Grenade.

This is so evil it should be a war crime. I'ma do it likkity split!

In 6th, you still deployed your whole army, even if you were deploying them into reserve, didn't you? I don't think the Wraithguard in a Raider would work. Tantalus is just fine, though!

Here's another one, btw.

Eldrad and Urien's Excellent Adventure
If Eldrad focuses on Malefic Daemonology, then sticking him in with Urien Rakarth might help. If they roll the Sacrifice power, then they can get the Herald for essentially free (since you still get the FNP on it, and even if that fails, Urien will heal it the very next turn). In an Eldar primary, add another daemonology psyker to double your fun. A unit of grots can suck up any additional wounds.

Also, the new 50% reserves rules plus the Stronghold Assault rules give me lovely ideas for WWP lists again.

If you took a Bastion with an escape hatch, you could potentially drop the WWP inside your opponent's deployment zone on the first turn. With a comms relay and a buttload of dudes in Reserve, you could overcome the 'Doofus Phase' (where all your guys have to stand around not assaulting) via target saturation.

Here's a question: you seem to be advocating the Stormsurge.

Are formations allowed in general play? I kind of thought they were Apoc only. If not, then I'm fielding that bidniss DIRECTLY.

Aren't all formations Apoc selections, though?

I just looked at it again, and it looks like Apocalypse is only mentioned in the introduction of the article, but an Apoc restriction doesn't appear anywhere in the actual rules.

When it comes to Misfortune, the re-rolled armor saves are great. But the Rending part of the equation, I think, looks a little tastier on paper than it actually is in reality. Back in 6th, I had countless occasions where I needed to fall back on the Rending potential of Assault Cannons or Sniper Rifles to take down vehicles, and was almost always disappointed. I think Misfortune is certainly good enough to include, but that it would probably more productive to keep the 'Rending on vehicles' as a Hail Mary pass.

Regarding the Stormsurge, while the article mentions Apocalypse, the data sheet with the actual rules on it never mentions Apocalypse.

I'm spitballing, but prior to 7th edition, were there any formations that were legal for regular 40k?


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Also, it appears that the proscription against allies using your Webway Portals is gone.

There may be some wiggle room to argue whether the Portal still qualifies as 'equipment' once dropped (meaning only Eldar and CWE can benefit from the portals) or not (in which case all of your allies regardless of relationship can use it!) but this opens up a whole carton of shenanigans.

Urien Rakarth and a pack of Grots can do some damage to vehicles.

18 S7 attacks on the charge.

I haven't crunched the mathhammer on them, but I have had a handful of good experiences with them. A couple of times now I've had to use them to dig me out of a hairy situation with a vehicle, only to have the assaulting grots bring down the vehicles a little quicker than my Ravagers. Granted, I've only used them three times so far, so I can't speak to any reliability issues they may have, but they sure seem like they've got some utility, at least to me.

Seems to me like we don't have any A-list anti-vehicle options. To that end, I think we're going to have to accept that the Achilles Heel(s) of our army are vehicles and leadership tests. While the second issue continues to plague me, I have found that making sure most of my selections can perform as second- or third-string anti-armor units and just adopt a 'get as get can' approach to popping vehicles.

Stormsurge is from two WD's ago at this point. (The May 10th edition, which is issue 15.)

Played my first game tonight and got rick-rolled so hard it was ridiculous. In the end, Baron Sathonyx and a 14-strong pack of Hellions wound up chasing a Leman Russ tank commander across the board like a demented version of the Looney Tunes. Crap was ridiculous. (Sidenote, Sathonyx and some Hellions can put some serious hurt on vehicles--as can Beastpacks. More second-string choices to keep in mind.) First game would have actually been mine (I ignored the cards in favor of tabling my opponent after the objective draws went SERIOUSLY skewed in his favor) but it ended at turn 5 with only a single tank remaining on the board.

Pretty sure it's one per unit in the shooting phase, one per model (against MCs or Vehicles) in assault.

And the ability for anyone with a PGL to throw blind grenades is pretty dope, btw.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Urien Rakarth and a pack of Grots can do some damage to vehicles.

18 S7 attacks on the charge.

I haven't crunched the mathhammer on them, but I have had a handful of good experiences with them. A couple of times now I've had to use them to dig me out of a hairy situation with a vehicle, only to have the assaulting grots bring down the vehicles a little quicker than my Ravagers. Granted, I've only used them three times so far, so I can't speak to any reliability issues they may have, but they sure seem like they've got some utility, at least to me.

Seems to me like we don't have any A-list anti-vehicle options. To that end, I think we're going to have to accept that the Achilles Heel(s) of our army are vehicles and leadership tests. While the second issue continues to plague me, I have found that making sure most of my selections can perform as second- or third-string anti-armor units and just adopt a 'get as get can' approach to popping vehicles.

At the end of 5th, a squad of 10 of these guys was awesome for me. Then 6th smash attacks ruined these guys. With the new smash they may be much more viable again.

Smash? How did Smash ruin them for you? Oh, I get it. Instant killing them? I just never ran them into a MC. (Although now that you mention it, that might be a good use of their time now.) The only time I didn't get my money's worth out of them in 6th was in a game where they got caught up by a Librarian with the Dominate power and the Warlord trait that makes a unit use it's lowest Ld value. (THAT combo sucked. Never had cause to look at a Grot's leadership value before. I was horrified.)

I also picked up the Cephalyx Overlords, Shingen. Just gorgeous next to the other DE. Fit right in. For my grotesques, I went with some old Dreamblade figs. They still need some conversion work on a few, and they all need a new paint job, but here are the base minis.

Yeah, my game experience so far has given me the impression that the vehicles changes hurt us more than they helped. (Of course, Reavers benefit immensely from the new Jink.)

 whembly wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

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I think a 10 man grot squad with Vect+ 2 heamis with WWP is viable again now that thre is no limit on our reserves and allies can come out. Just pack your reserves with high volume, fast shooters.

What do you mean by no limit? Did something change in 7ed for WWP?

Two things changed. The first is that you can put as many units as you want into Reserve. The second is that allies (Battle Brothers at the very least) can use the WWP.

Correct. But without their dedicated transports, one assumes that you can overwhelm your opponent's ability to shoot things off the table.

Those'd be some expensive Trueborn, though. And they wouldn't be any less fragile than regular ol' trueborn.

At the tail end of 6th I got into using Fortifications with Wracks crewing the guns. (At 30 points apiece, Wracks make the cheapest BS4 gun crew available in any army!) I haven't tried this yet in 7th, but I still intend to.

Oh, there are cheaper options, but none that don't waste valuable FOC slots. Assuming you brought a haemmy, the wracks are occupying the much less coveted Troops slot. In addition, any wounds they suffer from Glancing Hits on the building will let them have their armor save, (gasp!) followed by their FNP. (Yes, other units have saves, but it's a plus for the Wracks!) For 60 points you can crew both gun silos in a Fortress of Redemption with BS 4 models, and for 80 more you can get another four of them anywhere on the building with heavy bolters to back them up. PLUS some big honking terrain, which our vehicles could DEFINITELY use in this edition.

I prefer to take Sliscus for a doubled chance at FNP, rather than take a haemmy in a non-coven unit and lose Fleet.

I'm not sure if Voidravens are going to be our salvation in this edition, but I may give one a shot just to see.

I'm not really concerned about anti-infantry firepower. Our army EXCELS at anti-infantry work. It's the vehicles that give me pause, and between the flyers, the Voidraven seems to have a very slight edge.

That'd be a big one big load you're shooting. Of course, once it's shot...

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.

Voidravens have worse odds then ravagers at exploding vehicles. 2 shots over 3. Still needing 6's.


Wyches are terrible still. Now that troops are SO valuable with objective secured it makes throwing them away even sillier IMO.

I don't think you give wyches (haywyches specifically) enough credit, Red. And although I haven't had enough game experience to state definitively, a PGL on a wych squad might make it all even better (and could definitely reduce some of the danger in them getting shot at).

Although I do agree with you that the Voidraven is probably NOT a better option than the Ravager. I think it's limited mobility and fewer shots will tell over the long haul.

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 Jancoran wrote:
So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.

Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.

Vehicles....

Eh, depends. Against Land Raiders and Monoliths you're hosed, but against the vehicle squadrons that seem to be making a comeback? I don't know about you, but I've seen more squadrons in the last two months than I did in all the rest of 6th ed put together. And a St 7 blast (four of them, no less!) might be just the ticket there...

Still, not much use against heavy armor.

I don't think we're going to find the 'messiah solution' to the vehicle problem. I seriously think the best bet is to make do with many second-string options rather than relying on one or two A-list ones.

Red Corsair wrote:They also shouldn't be effective against vehicles squads. I mean lets give your opponent some benefit from doubt. They have a 4" coherency available, IF you land all 4 thats 4 s7 hits. You'll bounce on any tank and maybe nab a killa can or war walker if their saves are trash due to 2 HP's. Razorwings shred infantry, and I love the model, but they should never waste that one time payload on vehicles to grab 1-2 HP's.

The void raven has a nice punch but the new damage table makes it good for finishing off that wounded vehicle. Not to mention it has a worthless one time bomb. I remember thinking the VR was good until I took a second glance and saw the void mine was regular blast. That thing needs to be at least a 5" IMO and ignore cover.

Give US some benefit of the doubt too. It shouldn't be that hard to ensure that your opponent will have to be closer than 4" apart in order to obtain optimum shots or avoid incoming fire.

Although I agree that the bomb is virtually useless.

Red Corsair wrote:
Why not just field them in a WS? Unlike the venom its going to survive, has much more utility and is combat effective much sooner.

In your example turn 1 you will embark meaning no flat out. This means turn 2 your moving at least 12" so your snap firing the passengers unless you disembark, in which case why bother with the delicate opened topped transport? if they counter maneuver you might not get a solid target until turn 3. Way too late in a DE army for my taste. Hit them hard and fast T1-2. They survive that without being crippled and you usually have a massive struggle ahead.

I concur. While I'm not opposed to skipping turn 1 because you're Deep Striking (and Blasterborn just got MUCH better now that they can do that and fire to full effect), skipping any effective shooting on turn 1 AND still being around to get shot at? Not worth it in my book. It's a good idea, and Fire Dragons in a Dais or a Tantalus might still find their way into my army somewhere, but I think it's just not quite going to work.

(Alternately, Fire Dragons are a good unit to have pouring out of a WWP, though.)

 Exergy wrote:
CWE are just better.

That's a mighty subjective notion there, amigo. And I'm sure there are more than a few people here willing to disagree.

Both armies are good. Competitive even.

Craftworld Eldar are just easier to learn how to play. (At least they were in 6th. Time will tell if 7th ed changes have affected that at all.)

There are one or two things that CWE do better, though. Namely, psykers. Until our new book drops I think I'll be including a couple just as a defensive move.

But I definitely don't think we should exclude the notion of allies simply because it would be easier to just go CWE and spam Wave Serpents.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Never had issues? Prey tell, how did you handle the dreaded Wave Serpent? They stand at the nadir of effectiveness for our Lances at Av 12, they can jink for a 3+(!) cover save and have enough fire power to wreck *anything* in the DE army save for a Talos in a single round of shooting. How can we compete with that? Cover saves? They ignore them with shields. Night shields? Serpent Shields are range 60 (!).

I have lost entire games when someone has decided to bring a single Wave Serpent to a thousand point tourney as i had nothing to counter it while it tore through my army, so Dark Eldar buddies, other then Wyches who will never get there how do you handle Wave Serprents. Preferably no allies.

Haywyches, Blasterborn, Raiders, Ravagers, Taloses, Grotesques, Hellions, Reavers, Mandrakes, Beast Packs. All of them are capable of damaging the dreaded Wave Serpent, many without giving up cover saves.

Do Wave Serpents give me trouble? Yes. But they are far from the unstoppable "I-win-button" they are sometimes portrayed as.

 RancidHate wrote:
Ok, so people ain't down with Dragons in a Venom like I thought. Although that was a great idea, Dragons out of a Webway Portal.

What about hmm... what's odd.. Sword Wraithblades in a Raider? It alleviates their biggest problem, actually getting into combat.

I know since DE transports are usually dedicated there has to be some turn 1 disembark / embark shuffling...

I don't think any plot that involves turn 1 disembark shuffling is going to work where Dark Eldar are involved. The army as a whole is too focused on speed. (Although, again, both the Tantalus and Webway Portal spring to mind.)


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Shingen wrote:
Dais only fits 10 models and isn't as survivable.

Tantalus everytime.


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Tantalus btw fits 16

Tantalus price: $150 (before astronomic overseas shipping)
"Dais" (Ravager) price: $50 (and is available at any local game store)

I'm not saying don't get a Tantalus, but this is certainly going to be a factor in people's choices.

Okay Red, I hear what you're saying and I get that you think Ravagers are bad, Wyches are bad, and that the DE codex as a whole sucks.

Other than 'play an older edition,' do you have any constructive suggestions to contribute? How do you think we should be handling vehicles?

 RancidHate wrote:
Crap? Hey-hey, now; I can't speak for everyone but, I'm gonna defend myself, I was trying to come up with new, crazy things that might work and, learned a few as well.

Before I propose the following keep in mind I'm not familiar with Forgeworld units.

Ok so a Falcon is a non-dedicated transport that holds 5 dudes, which 5 dudes would be best put in it? Definitely not close combat tough-guys, since no Eldar vehicle currently has the "Assault Vehicle" rule.

See, what I really have a curiosity-boner for is how to use the new rule about Eldar and Dark Eldar using each-other's vehicles (even with turn 1 shuffling). Or just, do whatever you gotta do to get that Ivniz, then cast it on a HamGrot squad. Only hit 3W T5 guys on 6s ...oooohhh....ah ...ahhhh.

I don't think he was talking about you, Rancid. I think Shingen is trying to prod us towards the constructive building of some tactical guidelines, while keeping the thread from devolving into endless pages of complaining about how "screwed" our codex is.

As to your question, how about a Nightspinner? I've never seen one on the table top but they seem pretty nasty. Could be good against light vehicles. No transport capacity, but that and the Crimson Hunter look really good to me.

 Aix'Nyre wrote:

Shingen wrote:


1. Vect, Archon (Phantasm Grenade Laucher), Tantalus (Heavy Support, Forgeworld), 7x Wraithblades (Swords) - Archon gives unit Assault and Defensive Grenades, Tantalus is Armor 12 with 2 6 shot Disintegrators and has a capacity of 16! I think everyone can see where I am going with this one...

i believe as of the last FW FAQ to get their vehicles up to 6th Edition the Tantalus lost it's transport capacity.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

no longer lists it as 'T' just F, S, O, Tk

Hmmm. I think that's obviously a type. Like the typo in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules in 6th edition that "technically" meant they didn't have Relentless or Smash. (Instead they had a single rule called 'Relentless Smash,' which I assure you is not written up anywhere. ) Nobody played it that way, and I wouldn't expect anyone to play the Tantalus without the transport capacity the book lists it as having.

 Deuce11 wrote:
LOL based on this thread I guess I will be running DE counts as Eldar!

Please refrain from trolling the thread. It isn't productive.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I am with you on the new ideas as I am also in agreement on whats listed there as viable. I just find whats viable boring top play with in a 3 game RTT, by the end of game two all I feel I'm doing is rolling for two weapon profiles.

I am not so sold on deepstriking as others are though I am thinking we need an anchor on field to keep us from auto losing, while we reserve as much glass hammer as we can.

So lets start with the durable, what can be plunk down and have good to preferably great odds of survival until our reserves arrive? Lets keep it to DE only to start.

I prefer the Talos, a Reaver or two (especially if they are concealed behind terrain) or a Ravager or two with Night Shields. Not necessarily all at once, but all those are picks I've found to have a good chance of surviving turn 1.

Also, any fortification staffed with Wracks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't flyers only measure to objectives from their hull, not their base?

It also seems like a pretty heavy "Moneyshot" list. I mean, if your scatters roll well and you can rack up pearl necklaces every time, more power to you. But enough of them go wide to end up on the sheets or the headboard, and you're looking at a list that'd be long on promise and short on delivery.

Still, if you've got the dough for six Voidravens, it'd be a great sucker-punch list.

Sounds good. Very competitive, probably.

Has some kind of unspoken consensus been reached that the only way we're going to win is with ultra spam lists?