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I'd say no you can't switch them out in reserves. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Tantalus is the only option.

Oh Wow, just seen the tantalus model for the first time. Now that is something id love to field! And looking at the rules possibly not seems a little under protected for its points cost considering its open topped and so large, but AV 12 on sides isnt shabby, not particularly effective if I drop it in from DS right in front of the enemy to unload some wraiths. Although saying that, DS it in (assuming I can DS it with retrojets - dukes special probably doesn't include tantalus im guessing), open fire with the 6 dissies and melt some tough unit, then have the wraithguard blast something else to pieces alongside it.

Downsides: wont be able to disembark the turn it DS's, probably will be gone come second turn on the board although could be really fun for fluff purposes, having it DS in with the other raiders and venoms as if it was the central core of a raiding party.

ooo really considering it now purely for the enjoyment of the model and casual games. Thanks for the point towards the tantalus, saw the reaper too which looks awesome.

Tantalus is a great model, bit of a pain to build and transport, but beautiful. It also draws so much fire its silly. Works insanely good if you get lucky with a warlord trait to outflank it.

Solar Shock wrote:
Oh Wow, just seen the tantalus model for the first time. Now that is something id love to field! And looking at the rules possibly not seems a little under protected for its points cost considering its open topped and so large, but AV 12 on sides isnt shabby, not particularly effective if I drop it in from DS right in front of the enemy to unload some wraiths. Although saying that, DS it in (assuming I can DS it with retrojets - dukes special probably doesn't include tantalus im guessing), open fire with the 6 dissies and melt some tough unit, then have the wraithguard blast something else to pieces alongside it.

Downsides: wont be able to disembark the turn it DS's, probably will be gone come second turn on the board although could be really fun for fluff purposes, having it DS in with the other raiders and venoms as if it was the central core of a raiding party.

ooo really considering it now purely for the enjoyment of the model and casual games. Thanks for the point towards the tantalus, saw the reaper too which looks awesome.

Why can't you disembark? Deep striking vehicles count as having moved at combat speed now.

Corollax wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:
Oh Wow, just seen the tantalus model for the first time. Now that is something id love to field! And looking at the rules possibly not seems a little under protected for its points cost considering its open topped and so large, but AV 12 on sides isnt shabby, not particularly effective if I drop it in from DS right in front of the enemy to unload some wraiths. Although saying that, DS it in (assuming I can DS it with retrojets - dukes special probably doesn't include tantalus im guessing), open fire with the 6 dissies and melt some tough unit, then have the wraithguard blast something else to pieces alongside it.

Downsides: wont be able to disembark the turn it DS's, probably will be gone come second turn on the board although could be really fun for fluff purposes, having it DS in with the other raiders and venoms as if it was the central core of a raiding party.

ooo really considering it now purely for the enjoyment of the model and casual games. Thanks for the point towards the tantalus, saw the reaper too which looks awesome.

Why can't you disembark? Deep striking vehicles count as having moved at combat speed now.

I believe the retrojets wargear itself prohibit you from disembarking.

However, the Duke's rule grants all vehicles DS... so, for there I guess you could disembark.

Caveat: This is all from memory, so I could be wrong.


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Shingen wrote:
I'd say no you can't switch them out in reserves. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Tantalus is the only option.

Vect's Dias is the other one.

 whembly wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Why can't you disembark? Deep striking vehicles count as having moved at combat speed now.

I believe the retrojets wargear itself prohibit you from disembarking.

However, the Duke's rule grants all vehicles DS... so, for there I guess you could disembark.

Caveat: This is all from memory, so I could be wrong.
<snip>

You're right that retrofire jets prohibit disembarking, but the Tantalus doesn't need them (even if it can buy them). It has the deep strike rule already, which doesn't have such a prohibition on disembarking. Handy, that.

That said, I wouldn't deep strike it. It's a fast skimmer with enhanced aether sails. You should be able to just move it on from your deployment zone without the inconvenience of scattering or risk of mishap. It even gives you a chance to use your scythevanes.

Dais only fits 10 models and isn't as survivable.

Tantalus everytime.


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Tantalus btw fits 16

Ok, so people ain't down with Dragons in a Venom like I thought. Although that was a great idea, Dragons out of a Webway Portal.

What about hmm... what's odd.. Sword Wraithblades in a Raider? It alleviates their biggest problem, actually getting into combat.

I know since DE transports are usually dedicated there has to be some turn 1 disembark / embark shuffling...

 RancidHate wrote:
Ok, so people ain't down with Dragons in a Venom like I thought. Although that was a great idea, Dragons out of a Webway Portal.

What about hmm... what's odd.. Sword Wraithblades in a Raider? It alleviates their biggest problem, actually getting into combat.

I know since DE transports are usually dedicated there has to be some turn 1 disembark / embark shuffling...

I don't think any plot that involves turn 1 disembark shuffling is going to work where Dark Eldar are involved. The army as a whole is too focused on speed. (Although, again, both the Tantalus and Webway Portal spring to mind.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shingen wrote:
Dais only fits 10 models and isn't as survivable.

Tantalus everytime.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tantalus btw fits 16

Tantalus price: $150 (before astronomic overseas shipping)
"Dais" (Ravager) price: $50 (and is available at any local game store)

I'm not saying don't get a Tantalus, but this is certainly going to be a factor in people's choices.

Shingen wrote:
Dais only fits 10 models and isn't as survivable.

Tantalus everytime.

Dias is AV13 on all sides. Waaay more survivable than Tantalus.

I use the Dias to deliver my Incubis.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tantalus btw fits 16

True... if it you're fielding WraithGaurds, you'd only fit at most 8.

Based on the New jink rules and the fact the dais can't take a flickerfield or nightshield I'll stick with a tantalus


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If your using wraithguard I'd stick 7 in it with a spiritseer and farseer.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Never had issues? Prey tell, how did you handle the dreaded Wave Serpent? They stand at the nadir of effectiveness for our Lances at Av 12, they can jink for a 3+(!) cover save and have enough fire power to wreck *anything* in the DE army save for a Talos in a single round of shooting. How can we compete with that? Cover saves? They ignore them with shields. Night shields? Serpent Shields are range 60 (!).

I have lost entire games when someone has decided to bring a single Wave Serpent to a thousand point tourney as i had nothing to counter it while it tore through my army, so Dark Eldar buddies, other then Wyches who will never get there how do you handle Wave Serprents. Preferably no allies.

Haywyches, Blasterborn, Raiders, Ravagers, Taloses, Grotesques, Hellions, Reavers, Mandrakes, Beast Packs. All of them are capable of damaging the dreaded Wave Serpent, many without giving up cover saves.

Do Wave Serpents give me trouble? Yes. But they are far from the unstoppable "I-win-button" they are sometimes portrayed as.

OK you keep saying haywyches which has to tell me you have very limited experience with them. they are not actually good vehicle hunters. I'd say a wave serpent is the last thing on their list of achievable tasks btw. They have no threateni9ng shooting so it doesn't need to jink and its shield RAPES DE skimmers. I also am stunned that you actually listed Taloi, Grots and most troubling of all Mandrakes.... seriously Mandrakes? None of those unts will catch even a casually shifting WS.

Deepstriking requires the Duke who I love but he doesn't add much to an army other then looking awesome and a suicidal drop zone tactic all for 150pts. Grabbing rear armor from serpents via DS venoms is beyond not worth it. They still get a 3++ jink even if stationary and now you are putting them between a WS and a hard place (board edge) and thats only if your opponents intoxicated enough to leave said gap. Or was he just baiting a poor play? Hmmmmm. 2-3 wave serpents is enough to destroy 2-3 DE skimmers per turn consistently. Venoms have 2 pitiful HP and are our best carrier.

Unit for unit the CWE have a similar entry, actually usually 2 that do our jobs as good if not better for cheaper. It sucks but it's sadly the truth. Christ, a scourge is 22 pts, a hawk is 16, wind rider 17 and spider 19 all of which are faster, have better USR's and are more durable. I mean wind riders are 17 AND troops and basically invalidate every jump unit we have.

Heck one of our best unit entries in the book are Blasterborn. Price 27 ppm, see fire dragons 22 ppm better save, better gun, comes with melta bombs eldar don't even take them anymore because they are "too much" lol.

We have awesome units, our price tags are so crappy though its insane. Wyches should have their old gear back IMO. The new book killed them for me. Back after the WD update they were great. No unique weapons, instead every wych eliminated their enemies extra ccw attack, had a 4++ dodge and units that weren't double their strength (s6) halved their weapon skill AND they could take two special weapons (blasters and shredders). Think about that, they got worse before 6th or 7th hit. Bringing back the unique weapon profiles at X amount on 1 per 5 was the biggest step back IMO. Now they are 10 PPM, 12 if you even try making them AT which is not advised. So awful when a Swooping hawk is 16ppm has a 4+, jump infantry, battle focus, messenger of victory, hawk bombs, haywire G, AND a 3 shot basic weapon and ld9. Yea I would say CWE outclass us ATM, not even an argument. We need a 15-25% across the board point drop, and that's just the start. We then need a new vehicle, and a few new weapon profiles. Personally I always hated the poison mechanic change. Should have been splinter rifles/pistols S4 poison 5+, canons s5 poison 5+ (possibly rending). removing their strength just makes them underwhelming against cheap units and OP against MC's.

Well the main reason I wanted DS was that primarily I wouldn't have a lot of armour on the table, meaning the tantalus would be the target of choice, Id have a wraithknight down, but im sure a tantalus full of wraithguard would be too juicey a target for not getting it in the neck first turn. But anyways, I can get it and experiment, although ive never come across the dias gona go look it up.

Hmm doesn't seem too bad but just a huge amount of points. in honesty what I think is probably more points effective is simply bringing a couple squads of wraithguard and put spiritseers with them, roll for gate of infinity and if I dont get it I can use a raider or something.

Although a WWP does seem oh so fluffy and awesome. id love to have an iyanden force pouring through a webway straight into the ranks of the enemy, blasting holes in everything as my raiders and venoms DS and my hawks and spiders dart in and out.

I think il get the tantalus anyway although apparently its 11" long, which seems humongous but would be soooo sweet as the centre of a DS raid, throwing out a unit of banshees, wraithguard straight into the fray.

I think wraithguard would be unit of choice, simply because if it got wrecked they'd take the punishment and most likely any fire from the enemy come next turn. Although id be hoping target saturation with a full raiding party being too much to handle.

I have a 7th ED Deep Strike list with 10 vehicles deep striking which I will post up a bit later on the first post of the thread.

Been toying around with it tonight and while shooting Wave Serpents in the rear isn't the most effective use they certainly work rather well.

With regards to Wyches. Don't underestimate them, I have and do run lists with Wyches in, they are probably the best thing DE have when it comes to destroying Wave Serpents, Yes Haywire might not be able to pen anymore (unless open topped) but they still glance things to death much better than any vehicle we have access to.

Comparing Eldar and Dark Eldar units is kinda stupid, they both have different roles, Scourges for the price with their basic weapon are not "that" bad but still not really a unit of choice.

Eldar are a tool DE can use to make them more effective.

Again, I said it a few posts ago, the thread is meant to be used to work out what DE can do well in 7th, not bitch, moan and chastise them at every opportunity.

Can we get back on the "good" side of things.

Some constructive suggestions would be welcome (especially from you Red), all I am hearing at the moment is crap though to be honest...

Okay Red, I hear what you're saying and I get that you think Ravagers are bad, Wyches are bad, and that the DE codex as a whole sucks.

Other than 'play an older edition,' do you have any constructive suggestions to contribute? How do you think we should be handling vehicles?

Crap? Hey-hey, now; I can't speak for everyone but, I'm gonna defend myself, I was trying to come up with new, crazy things that might work and, learned a few as well.

Before I propose the following keep in mind I'm not familiar with Forgeworld units.

Ok so a Falcon is a non-dedicated transport that holds 5 dudes, which 5 dudes would be best put in it? Definitely not close combat tough-guys, since no Eldar vehicle currently has the "Assault Vehicle" rule.

See, what I really have a curiosity-boner for is how to use the new rule about Eldar and Dark Eldar using each-other's vehicles (even with turn 1 shuffling). Or just, do whatever you gotta do to get that Ivniz, then cast it on a HamGrot squad. Only hit 3W T5 guys on 6s ...oooohhh....ah ...ahhhh.

 RancidHate wrote:
Crap? Hey-hey, now; I can't speak for everyone but, I'm gonna defend myself, I was trying to come up with new, crazy things that might work and, learned a few as well.

Before I propose the following keep in mind I'm not familiar with Forgeworld units.

Ok so a Falcon is a non-dedicated transport that holds 5 dudes, which 5 dudes would be best put in it? Definitely not close combat tough-guys, since no Eldar vehicle currently has the "Assault Vehicle" rule.

See, what I really have a curiosity-boner for is how to use the new rule about Eldar and Dark Eldar using each-other's vehicles (even with turn 1 shuffling). Or just, do whatever you gotta do to get that Ivniz, then cast it on a HamGrot squad. Only hit 3W T5 guys on 6s ...oooohhh....ah ...ahhhh.

I don't think he was talking about you, Rancid. I think Shingen is trying to prod us towards the constructive building of some tactical guidelines, while keeping the thread from devolving into endless pages of complaining about how "screwed" our codex is.

As to your question, how about a Nightspinner? I've never seen one on the table top but they seem pretty nasty. Could be good against light vehicles. No transport capacity, but that and the Crimson Hunter look really good to me.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Okay Red, I hear what you're saying and I get that you think Ravagers are bad, Wyches are bad, and that the DE codex as a whole sucks.

Other than 'play an older edition,' do you have any constructive suggestions to contribute? How do you think we should be handling vehicles?

I am not knocking the book for it's content but rather its age. it was AWESOME until 6th hit, then it was decent. Now it's still LOADS of fun, but we are talking competitive here. It's a tactics thread, and honestly you can't expect the DE book to pull it out on its own any more without loaded dice or luck being greatly involved. Whether that's favorable match ups, or just getting those lucky 6's. Which annoys me as it urges you into allies or spamming units for redundancy which I hate.

I love fielding lists that minimize spam. So for the longest time I would field wracks, wyches and warriors from troops. A beast pack and bikes then a ravager and razorwing. Then whatever HQ I felt happy with, like the duke or lady malice or even Urien.

I also had a list that fielded 10 grotesques and a pair of heamis with WWP's. 6th killed that list and I am happy to run it now in 7th. But now in 7th the new vehicle damage rules have made it harder then it was even in 5th to take transports out. Again this forces us to use allies, or to spam AT guns and because our units are mispriced you aren't left with much pie crust to play with.

Last month I had great results with my DE until I drew a 4 imperial Knight list. After that one sided beating I realized how tough hulling out vehicles was for DE. Thanks to this thread I am actually excited to field a Reaper. I think thats our best AT as far as DE on their own. Now I am just trying to wrap my brain around what to do to keep it alive past turn 1.

Aside from AT we still shred infantry 6 ways from Sunday. I just hate am finding more and more vehicles in my way

Deep strike them.

Give it a dedicated bare bones Farseer?

Had a Raider blow up and wreck a Venom. So that tied with my Archon, who beat a Knight in single combat for a turn and a half, as MVP of the game.

Shingen wrote:
Deep strike them.

If I DS them its not contributing until T2 with only a 67% chance it arrives, then It can scatter and lose its shot or mishap. Reserve might work, but I'd want to go full reserve with a coms relay to help me maintain my alpha strike.

Honestly I am starting to think full reserve is our best option in 7th. It allows us to keep the initiative so to speak, plus DE are best at the short game. Long 7 turn games usually go poorly for us. Hit them hard for a few turns and hope the game ends.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Deep strike them.

If I DS them its not contributing until T2 with only a 67% chance it arrives, then It can scatter and lose its shot or mishap. Reserve might work, but I'd want to go full reserve with a coms relay to help me maintain my alpha strike.

Honestly I am starting to think full reserve is our best option in 7th. It allows us to keep the initiative so to speak, plus DE are best at the short game. Long 7 turn games usually go poorly for us. Hit them hard for a few turns and hope the game ends.

These were my thoughts as well. Nearly everything in the army can deep strike, or like Reavers just have enough movement it doesn't matter. For an extra five points per vehicle if you lose the roll to go first you have the option to reserve/deepstrike based upon your opponent's deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, has this been linked yet? Dashofpepper's Guide to Dark Eldar

It was written for fifth edition, but with the rise of vehicles again it's becoming more relevant. There is also just good, general advice for deldar players.

Shingen wrote:


1. Vect, Archon (Phantasm Grenade Laucher), Tantalus (Heavy Support, Forgeworld), 7x Wraithblades (Swords) - Archon gives unit Assault and Defensive Grenades, Tantalus is Armor 12 with 2 6 shot Disintegrators and has a capacity of 16! I think everyone can see where I am going with this one...

i believe as of the last FW FAQ to get their vehicles up to 6th Edition the Tantalus lost it's transport capacity.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

no longer lists it as 'T' just F, S, O, Tk

 Aix'Nyre wrote:

Shingen wrote:


1. Vect, Archon (Phantasm Grenade Laucher), Tantalus (Heavy Support, Forgeworld), 7x Wraithblades (Swords) - Archon gives unit Assault and Defensive Grenades, Tantalus is Armor 12 with 2 6 shot Disintegrators and has a capacity of 16! I think everyone can see where I am going with this one...

i believe as of the last FW FAQ to get their vehicles up to 6th Edition the Tantalus lost it's transport capacity.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

no longer lists it as 'T' just F, S, O, Tk

Hmmm. I think that's obviously a type. Like the typo in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules in 6th edition that "technically" meant they didn't have Relentless or Smash. (Instead they had a single rule called 'Relentless Smash,' which I assure you is not written up anywhere. ) Nobody played it that way, and I wouldn't expect anyone to play the Tantalus without the transport capacity the book lists it as having.

I e-mailed Forgeworld to try to get clarification and i hope it is indeed a typo Jimsolo...cause that means i need to move it farther up in my WIP task list, lol.

Considering a court of the Archon can take it as a dedicated transport I doubt it.

thankfully it was an error on the FAQ

"Hi there.

The Tantalus rules were updated in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse book released last year and it has a transport capacity of 16.



If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Regards,
Forge World"

 Aix'Nyre wrote:
thankfully it was an error on the FAQ

"Hi there.

The Tantalus rules were updated in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse book released last year and it has a transport capacity of 16.



If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Regards,
Forge World"

Its way to expensive for an AV 12 open topped transport though. I think they priced it too high because as usual they put way to much stock in the attacks it can make. Basically you forgo picking up troops or shooting its awesome guns for a hit or miss sweep attack. its crazy that a dissy ravager is only 3 shots off from it as well. It should be more like 175 honestly.

However it would be fun to put 15 warriors and the duke in it. But again, why on earth can't it take splinter racks? Seriously?

It's not overpriced really. Loads of shooting, big capacity, can have an invul, it's an assault vehicle, can deep strike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deep striking is now probably the best tactic for DE. More so with allies.

LOL based on this thread I guess I will be running DE counts as Eldar!