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You don't need s6, take a farseer, get misfortune and you can rend with them.

I did it last night, you have never seen devastation like it. Turn 3 all the marines where dead except for the 4 flyers which I just kited round the table.

In 2 turns I killed Tigurius, his 5 storm shield bodyguards, 4 tac squads, 2 squads of sternguard (plasma and melta) and their pods (haywire grenades) and a scout squad.

Shingen wrote:
Primary AT on Dark Eldar should be Haywire really. Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters are really good now if you DS them, probably more so than blasters.

Considering Knights and Super Heavys / Lords of war are in the game I'd suggest Haywire for AT, ap2 dissies for killing troops.

Again, 4 HB's on scourge is prohibitively expensive and will struggle to even kill a rhino which cost 35 as opposed to 260. A knight won't care either, it's ion shiled will soak half that damage. 4*2/3*1/2*5/6=1.1 HP on a Knight. Now it blows you off the board.

I really have no idea why people bash disintegrators, they are so much better than lances except if you are shooting a lemen Russ or a land raider.


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 Red Corsair wrote:

Shingen wrote:
Primary AT on Dark Eldar should be Haywire really. Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters are really good now if you DS them, probably more so than blasters.

Considering Knights and Super Heavys / Lords of war are in the game I'd suggest Haywire for AT, ap2 dissies for killing troops.

Again, 4 HB's on scourge is prohibitively expensive and will struggle to even kill a rhino which cost 35 as opposed to 260. A knight won't care either, it's ion shiled will soak half that damage. 4*2/3*1/2*5/6=1.1 HP on a Knight. Now it blows you off the board.

Yeah Scourges are a waste of points but I was just using them to illustrate a point.

Shingen wrote:
You don't need s6, take a farseer, get misfortune and you can rend with them.

I did it last night, you have never seen devastation like it. Turn 3 all the marines where dead except for the 4 flyers which I just kited round the table.

In 2 turns I killed Tigurius, his 5 storm shield bodyguards, 4 tac squads, 2 squads of sternguard (plasma and melta) and their pods (haywire grenades) and a scout squad.

Again, your answer is not DE it is eldar. How is that a gained benefit in 7th? I know allies are a part of the game but relying on a farseer AND a random roll to make ONE unit a turn more killable IF they don't dispel that one psycher seems poor.

Also anecdote evidence is worthless. No offense.

If I wanted to use eldar I'd take Warp Spider and Scatter walkers with a serpent to solve it. Of course now all I need do is switch to eldar primary since they are doing all the heavy lifting anyway.

I think we lost more then we gained since all our benefits are coming from our allies.


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Shingen wrote:
I really have no idea why people bash disintegrators, they are so much better than lances except if you are shooting a lemen Russ or a land raider.


.

They bounce of armor value. Dissies kill infantry, DE don't need help with that. if s5 was good for vehicles you would see heavy bolters.

You realize s5 can't pen 12+ and can only glance 11 right?

 Red Corsair wrote:



My hope is for dissy's to go up in strength to 6 with the update. Also the addition of some sort of mid strength cheap assault weapon for our elites. Possibly just changing shredders profile to be more like a death-spinner.

I imagine that an update is not going to up dissy strength, but rather up the number of shots on a haywire blaster. assault 2 would go a long way to making them viable.

Red I'm highly aware of that, I'm also aware dark lances are not the solution as ravagers just get primaried off the field turn 1 with Lances on them.

While splinter cannons are good against high toughness models they are pathetic against anything with 2+ which these days is an awful lot.

This thread is designed to find good things in the New rule bbbook for de, be that allies, dodgy tactics or whatever.

If you want a discussion on the merits of dissies, blasters and haywire I'll gladly chat to you about it either on another thread or in PM.

For the sake of this though can we please get back on topic?

If you have any viable suggestions from the new rule book I'll be glad to hear them, I know you know your stuff.

Dissies used to have two profiles. One being s7 blast (plasma canon). I wouldn't be surprised by a strength increase at all though I agree it's unlikely. I think assault two would only help if the carrier costs are fixed and other units gain access. If it's a scourge only it won't change much.


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Shingen wrote:
Red I'm highly aware of that, I'm also aware dark lances are not the solution as ravagers just get primaried off the field turn 1 with Lances on them.

While splinter cannons are good against high toughness models they are pathetic against anything with 2+ which these days is an awful lot.

This thread is designed to find good things in the New rule bbbook for de, be that allies, dodgy tactics or whatever.

If you want a discussion on the merits of dissies, blasters and haywire I'll gladly chat to you about it either on another thread or in PM.

For the sake of this though can we please get back on topic?

If you have any viable suggestions from the new rule book I'll be glad to hear them, I know you know your stuff.

So because ravagers are so good they are target prioritized, the solution is not taking them? That seems counter intuitive, if they aren't available as a target turn one something else is. What do you suggest? Either way something is going to be hit, taking suboptimal choices makes less sense.

I am not trying to offend anyone here. I thought I was on point as well. How is discussing DE new inability to deal with armor spam not on topic? You mentions the new damage table as a perk, which at face value appears right until you realize our enemies gained just as much as we did, so how is that improvement? I'd also note that no escape added another issue we need to develope strategies for.

I play many armies, so it is easy for me to analyze how one impacts the other. For example my marines use an iron clad with twin heabvy flamersin a pod as well as an allied guard hellhound. The new flamer rules make that a major impact on my DE who now can be roasted turn 1 from within their transports. In fact, without VERY wide spread deployment, a hellhound can catch 2-3 skimmers easily. At least the new FAQ makes helldrakes trickier for our opponents.

For me the new template and vehicle chart are the greatest challenges for my DE now. I don't even know how we handle Imperial knights, I have played 4 at 1500 and it wasn't pretty in 6th.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Dissies used to have two profiles. One being s7 blast (plasma canon). I wouldn't be surprised by a strength increase at all though I agree it's unlikely. I think assault two would only help if the carrier costs are fixed and other units gain access. If it's a scourge only it won't change much.

the other profile was str4 AP3

the disintigrator is similar to the star cannon. Isnt that now str6 Ap2 heavy 2? I dont know if I see them going up to str6 Ap2 heavy 3, but id take it.

Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.

I think Incubi got a big time boost with the changes to assault. Pair them with a husk blade archon and you have a have a fairly potent killing unit.

The problem with a husk blade archon in the past was diminishing returns. It would almost-always kill a target in cc, but there wasn't much effectiveness after that point. Now you can legitimately point an achron/incubi unit at a terminator squad and kill them before they strike, which is huge.

Haywire is great now, only because it's harder to kill vehicles. I think two units of wyches are an auto-take for that reason alone.

I want to play test, but I think Drazhar might have become more viable now too. He's still an expensive CC monster, but having those demi-klaive wounds carry over is great for him. Put him in an incubi squad with a klaivex and there's no good option for a unit against him. The klaivex can accept a challenge and drazhar can use his darting strike to pick out a special weapon or a character they're hoping to hide.

That part is nothing new, but wound spilling really helps here too.

 Auswin wrote:


The problem with a husk blade archon in the past was diminishing returns. It would almost-always kill a target in cc, but there wasn't much effectiveness after that point. Now you can legitimately point an achron/incubi unit at a terminator squad and kill them before they strike, which is huge.

They always killed off whatever they went after. The problem is getting into combat while not getting shot and then after they kill a unit not getting shot again.

They are still going to get shot repeatedly and die in horrible fashion.

 Auswin wrote:
Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.
.

This is where I am. If you NEED to have eldar allies in 7th to make them work then I guess that speaks volumes on how they made out.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.
.

This is where I am. If you NEED to have eldar allies in 7th to make them work then I guess that speaks volumes on how they made out.

they needed eldar allies in 6th, so I guess they are about where they were

I think they're largely the same. Still 40k's glass cannon that need to build early momentum and keep the pressure on.

Any time I play passively with my Dark Eldar I lose. I don't think that will change. I totally get what Exergy says above about the issue being getting Incubi and an Archon into combat, but the buff to jink and increased difficulty in exploding a transport should allow it to get across the board.

There's no perfect option, to me there's always a bit of luck involved -- which is why I suppose they're so out of favor in the competitive scene unless allied.

Has anyone else faced knights yet? I played 4 at 1500, didn't help i was seized on, especially when you consider that I needed to deploy aggressively do to terrain.

My list was

Baron
3 beastmasters
12 Khymera
3 trueborn 2 canons in venom
3 blaster born in a venom
3 blaster born in a venom
5 haywire wyches in venom
5 haywire wyches in venom
10 warriors in raider with splinter racks
10 warriors in raider with splinter racks
ravager
ravager

It was over turn 1 when he seized, but even had he not, their isn't much we have that can kill those. basically you commit your AT units in exchange for a few HP's only to watch them die and have less the next turn.

First 2 games went well against IG and Tau which were tough bouts, lost to by a VP to tau due to a stupid mistake and time otherwise I had it easily. Trounced IG, but those Knights were a MASSIVE hard counter. This was in 6th too btw.

Dark Light weaponry should still be taken, but it can work to supplement Haywire rather then supersede it. 4 Blasters is likely to get 3 hits, 1.5 glances/pens. 2 Haywire Blasters are likely to get something similar. They should work together to strip tanks of their hull points, something Dark Eldar are one of the best armies at because *all* of our anti tank weaponry will at least glance on the average roll, be that a 4+ for str 8 lance, 6+ on a 2D6 Melta lance or a 2+ for Haywire. Save for Necrons, no other army can say that can strip hull points as reliably as us. Haywire is good at this, exceptionally so, so maybe instead of the normal triple Lance Ravager maybe we could try 2 Reapers instead and a unit of Blaster Born.

Just a little bit of math. 1 Dark Lance hits 66% of the hit, pens 33% of the time, explodes 16% of the time vs none open topped. That gives us a 3% chance to explode anything. So that x3 = 10/9% chance to explode anything in the game pretty much. The Reaper on the other hand has 66% chance to hit, then a 33% chance to roll a 5 or 6 on the D3 Haywire hits, which is almost 20% chance to glance to death any 3 hull point tank, Does that make sense, swapping explosions for reliability?

 Exergy wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.
.

This is where I am. If you NEED to have eldar allies in 7th to make them work then I guess that speaks volumes on how they made out.

they needed eldar allies in 6th, so I guess they are about where they were

They didnt need Eldar Allies to make them work, I normally run pure DE in tournaments and although I never win I give many of the cheese lists a run for their money.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Dark Light weaponry should still be taken, but it can work to supplement Haywire rather then supersede it. 4 Blasters is likely to get 3 hits, 1.5 glances/pens. 2 Haywire Blasters are likely to get something similar. They should work together to strip tanks of their hull points, something Dark Eldar are one of the best armies at because *all* of our anti tank weaponry will at least glance on the average roll, be that a 4+ for str 8 lance, 6+ on a 2D6 Melta lance or a 2+ for Haywire. Save for Necrons, no other army can say that can strip hull points as reliably as us. Haywire is good at this, exceptionally so, so maybe instead of the normal triple Lance Ravager maybe we could try 2 Reapers instead and a unit of Blaster Born.

Just a little bit of math. 1 Dark Lance hits 66% of the hit, pens 33% of the time, explodes 16% of the time vs none open topped. That gives us a 3% chance to explode anything. So that x3 = 10/9% chance to explode anything in the game pretty much. The Reaper on the other hand has 66% chance to hit, then a 33% chance to roll a 5 or 6 on the D3 Haywire hits, which is almost 20% chance to glance to death any 3 hull point tank, Does that make sense, swapping explosions for reliability?

Except for the fact haywire is only available on crap units. Scourge suck, period. They are WAY over cost and pay through the nose for their special weapons. They also waste FA slots. The Reaper is neat but not as good as a ravager. A ravager will always put down hints. The reaper has one weapon and cost more. so 1/3 the time it misses. Then when it does hit they can get cover, then you roll for d3. You can get a ravagers with all the bells and whistles for the same price. Isn't the reaper 145?


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also your math comparing the two is flawed since your not factoring in HP v HP. Your doing explodes verse HP. The odds of a reaper one shoting a 3hp vehicle are poor.


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On second glance you have a point though, I have been on the fence getting a reaper. I don't like that it has 1 weapon however.

Reaper is 115, Ravager is 105 i believe. But remember the Reaper is paying for Aether Sails, which it won't often use. On the other side, it pays reduced for night/flickerfields at only 5pts a pop. So the point different is smaller then you'd think. While i'd agree with single shot syndrome, the reason this hasn't effected me is due to the availability of guide/prescience helping me.

As for the math i only picked explosion vs the amount of hull points needed to down a 3 hull point vehicle. In essence i was doing the ravagers chance to kill a 3 HP vehicle in 1 turn vs a Reapers, where i found the Reapers was better. You are correct though, any kind of save completely mitigates the entire damage. So it's kind of 50/50, but you gotta be honest, the Reaper model looks hot!

Im liking this list, I bought Eldar initially to support tau, but Im liking the shenanigans with this

I actually dont like it

Im after 3 Tantalus, now they are sexy!

Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes...but...I'm pretty sure wyches are dead now...one grenade per unit per phase now...
Also, change to poison rules means that, even with FC, wracks don't reroll against MEQs.
Taloi only get one smash...
It seems they really don't want dark eldar in close combat any more...
I don't think lances really suffer though, comparatively speaking. They're one of the few vehicles that even can still destroy enemy armour in one shot, no matter what it is. Because of that, I expect to see alot more vehicles, especially super-scoring transports. Lances are gonna be king, 3 to 6xRavager lists are gonna be a nasty surprise!

 Fos Kenos wrote:
one grenade per unit per phase now...

Is this actually a thing? I'm pretty sure they all get to use them in assault and can only throw one like in 6th.

Used to be...it's at the beginning of the grenades section...
...sorry...I rather liked that my buddy's wyches had a legitimate, combat role.
Tarpitting's nice...but really, things that kill are generally better than things that are hard(ish) to kill...

Even before wyches were terrible. Haywire grenades only tempted you into putting a scoring unit into a hairy situation. 12 pts. is way too much as well.


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@alex- yea I was already on the fence about buying one because the kit is sexy. The tantalus looks great but is much worse IMO. I'll probably buy one no matter what and field it since I only have 2 ravagers anyway. My DE are mainly a hobby army ATM. They still can rock, but I find them incredibly boring with every update. I used to run variety and used tricks to win, now with every update my list becomes more redundant and ends up being two weapon profiles for the entire game. Splinter canons and lances... So I will happily add the reaper, thanks for the nudge. I still am hopeful we get a mid strength AT weapon.

Urien Rakarth and a pack of Grots can do some damage to vehicles.

18 S7 attacks on the charge.

I haven't crunched the mathhammer on them, but I have had a handful of good experiences with them. A couple of times now I've had to use them to dig me out of a hairy situation with a vehicle, only to have the assaulting grots bring down the vehicles a little quicker than my Ravagers. Granted, I've only used them three times so far, so I can't speak to any reliability issues they may have, but they sure seem like they've got some utility, at least to me.

Seems to me like we don't have any A-list anti-vehicle options. To that end, I think we're going to have to accept that the Achilles Heel(s) of our army are vehicles and leadership tests. While the second issue continues to plague me, I have found that making sure most of my selections can perform as second- or third-string anti-armor units and just adopt a 'get as get can' approach to popping vehicles.

Trophies help the leadership issue, for 5 pts it's well worth it.


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It says 1 grenade thrown per phase which is in the shooting phase. You can still use them all in combat.

Well looking things over a little. Ravager has lost much of its charm. Yeah it still pops Terminators, but I think arming them with dissies would be better there. I think because of this Reapers have improved greatly with their d3 haywire +1 str 7 shot. Almost tempted now to field all my heavies as Reapers and then have a 2nd force org for what I think is an awesome buff for a ship that was hurt in 6th.

Apparently (and I haven't looked yet) aircraft can fire more than two missiles now? If that's the case Razorwings just got badass again. I remember people refusing to play against them in 5th ed due to dropping 4 pie plates, not to mention 12 shots from dissies and splinter cannon. Essentially each one would come off of reserves and wipe a squad a turn. They put Longfang missile spam in its place at a time when they were one of the "broken" units.

Also with the new vehicle damage tables, the Voidraven Bomber with its str9 lances just got that much better. Add some missiles for the devastating alpha strike. Plus I think the AA in the game will go one way or another, it will either get more specialized or people will try and ignore flyers since skyfire vehicles are much more limited unless they have a turn off option. It definitely evens up the game a bit for the DE, doesn't boost us mind you, but puts everyone on a closer footing to the DE in regard to lack of AA.

As far as non-flying or skimming AT, I think Wyches just got a new lease on life. I really didn't like fielding them before since 6th was a shooting game. I only started fielding them once Knights appeared on the scene. Now since I see the game going heavier towards vehicles I might be taking more than the one or two squads I typically bring.

Where can i find the Storm surge rules?

Last white dwarf or the New book valador.

I have the Valedor book, and none of the formations are called "storm surge"