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So it would seem that 7E appears to continue not to be favorable to melee driven armies. We all know the backdoor puckering list that is "Old McDaemon Had A Farm," which primarily leverages Tzeentch units while calling in primarily Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh units.

Basically, the best Chaos God continues to be the worst Chaos God.

I propose a list discussion on how possibly a Khorne army could hold up in what we know what was 6E and what we now have 7E. So let's set the parameters of a Khorne Army:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ +RULES OF ENGAGEMENT+ +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Please feel free to add any requirements you think would be necessary for a Khorne list.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ +UNITS BREAKDOWN]+ +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

---High Utility Units---


---Medium Utility Units---


---Low Utility---


Please let me know if I've missed a unit.

+++++++++++++++++
+ +TACTICS+ +
+++++++++++++++++

So we have to apply pressure and close the "gaps" on the table fast. We must also have a means of resilience to get there. Finally, while we punch things, we have to hold objectives. Punching first, scoring always, so to speak.

Our best options are either Land Raiders filled with Heralds, Chaos Lords on Juggies w/ Bikes, Spawn, or Mutilators in Land Raiders, and Khorne Dogs. The latter is probably the best bet, focusing on either multiple smaller units or one large blob. Each have their own respective issues. The MSU approach means that one squad cannot be focused fired by an entire army to allow hard choices for target priority. The large blob can be well supported with beat stick characters using LOS to full advantage when necessary, such as Skulltaker, who can tank anything that would instant death a pup. The larger blob also benefits from Be'lakor's wonderful self...

Be'lakor is the one psyker that can mesh with the army. Sorceror's aren't an option, but that's okay because we have our very own Invisibility Dispenser. I see Be'lakor as an auto-include for those armies looking to "dog star." Having this fast unit also be hard to hit for a majority of the game is brutal. Given that Be'lakor can perch in ruins for a 2+ cover save ain't bad, either.

Our real goal, though, is to make the magic happen Turn 2. Threat overload is nice, and we have to pull the heat off our pathetic troops unless you run massive cultists blobs with a fearless HQ (Kharn!!!), stack deep the CSMs, or leverage our Bloodletters.

+++++++++++++++
+ +LISTS+ +
+++++++++++++++

Here's a proposed 1850 list I am thinking of:




That's my brief thoughts on the matter. I would love to see Khorne come back as I always love the models more than any other God's and I love the theme of just straight brutality. I won't like, Slaanesh appeals to me too, but that's not my aim. I want to be the red bad guys making the good guys red too... WITH BLOOD.

Please feel free to add your inputs or lists so we might compile something. I am more a daemons guy, myself, versus that of CSM, but I would love to see how people propose the other half of Khorne (the better half?) performs.

Thank you!

Hell yeah, I hear you man. Khorne Daemons is the only unsold army I have outside of Orks.

What I've found is adding a second lesser for many of the Khorne characters is a solid idea, because you can buy an additional attack for 10pts.

From my limited experience using Khorne, Dogs are wounds and the Herald does the heavy lifting - especially vs MC. So maximising his damage output can seriously benefit the unit.

Really, truly sucks about the Bloodthirster. Did not warrant a nerf...

I don't see CSM Chosen or Helbrutes on the list. I would put each at medium usefulness.

A squad of Chosen with 4 flamers eats infantry. The fact they can charge afterwards with multiple attacks makes them that much more awesome. Fire is very Khorne, as well.

A Helbrute with a scourge, close combat weapon and flamer is very useful to have as well.

In terms of how to use each:

- MoK Chosen in a Land Raider or Spartan Assault Tank. This unit would make it into battle and be able to shoot and charge the turn they get near the enemy.

- A Helbrute in a Helcult, or a Helbrute Mayhem pack arriving via deep strike. Both are going to be able to get into combat. How long they will survive depends on who you are fighting.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I don't see CSM Chosen or Helbrutes on the list. I would put each at medium usefulness.

A squad of Chosen with 4 flamers eats infantry. The fact they can charge afterwards with multiple attacks makes them that much more awesome. Fire is very Khorne, as well.

A Helbrute with a scourge, close combat weapon and flamer is very useful to have as well.

In terms of how to use each:

- MoK Chosen in a Land Raider or Spartan Assault Tank. This unit would make it into battle and be able to shoot and charge the turn they get near the enemy.

- A Helbrute in a Helcult, or a Helbrute Mayhem pack arriving via deep strike. Both are going to be able to get into combat. How long they will survive depends on who you are fighting.

Thank you! I'll update in the AM as I'm gonna head to bed here soon.

Chosen have a place in medium, I agree. I wish they still had outflank. It's not Khorney to come from the side, but it's I don't think Khorne would be too mad about being a bit sneaky. Just as long as it was extra special bloody.

I'm not sold on Av12 Walkers. I did not consider formations, but I'll go back and check BoLS or something on the helbrute formations and report back. I think I remember one being okay for cultists that would be very Khorney.

You've kind of got it I think -- a Dog Rush list has the speed to at least get into combat quickly enough to make a difference. Invisible (you're running Telepathy on Be'Lakor of course) Khorne Dogespam can hurt a lot of infantry, and are at least somewhat resilient to powers directed against them with their Collars.

How are you planning on dealing with Mech? The Hellfire Gaze is nice, but can't be really relied upon with only one roll per Juggerherald, and even then are only as likely to kill a tank as a single Brightlance/Darklance shot was last edition. I might replace the second Skull Cannon with another Soulgrinder, as it gives you a more solid vehicle presence that can do some antitank in a pinch. If you want to break fluff, going Nurgle on them will help their survivability out and actually do something, as they don't benefit from Furious Charge if you're using the Claw (and you should). Daemon of Khorne is free though, nice that GW saw that it didn't do anything.

No Maulerfiend in the rankings?

-Matt

a couple things to consider that are being highly debated at the moment:

kharn and dtw. if we're able to use his special rule to shut down all powers that target us, and don't target another squad (blessings and conjurations) on a 2+ he's an auto include.

the debate boils down to whether or not you pick a squad to do your dtw, when a squad is not the target. I'm going to say yes until ours faqed.

kharne also eats invisibility, his codex rule with gorechild to hit on 2+ trumps the rule book needing 6s. again until gw says no that's how I'll play it.

the second big topic is ICs getting on a chariot joining a unit.
the herald of khorne gets on his bloodthrone, their profiles combine at this time. does the chariot keep the IC rule? i believe raw yes, the brb then states that ICs cannot join MCs or or vehicle units. ok, khorne dogs and blood crushers aren't either.
again I'll be playing it this way until its faqed.

the fresh prince of be'lair is a BEAST!!! but as a stand alone psycher, he won't be able to cast invisibility reliably enough to count on it. being ML 3, and only generating 3 wc dice, he may roll the 2 4+s needed, but the enemy only needs to roll one 6 to shut it down. but i guess with the added d6 we will get, it may be better than I'm thinking. and if they're running a psycher heavy list with lots of wc dice, we'll be shutting down all their powers with kharn anyways!!

another unit to consider with the helbrute formations, Is the one that gives us 5 brutes in a squad, slap plasma cannons or auto guns on this, with whatever ccw you fancy, then invis this unit!!!

MWAHAHAHA!!!!! BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!


the Nerf to the big thirster is complete and utter bulls..t.

he is and has been my go to man since 3rd edition. I've never had to shelve him, this is crap. so pissed about it.

but maybe if we can produce enough threats, we can keep him in glide mode and jump our way into combat?
12(deplyoyment)+12(turn one jump)+2d6(run)+12(turn two jump)+2d6 (assault) can get us into combat turn 2.

I'm determined to make him work somehow.

i hate tz, i hate slaamesh, i can tolerate nurgle, he's my homie and baby sits my objectives wonderfully. I'm not buying into the spam tz heralds fotm crap.


my last thought, what do we do with our heldrakes now?? another sad face here...

Khorne marked Chaos Contemptor Dreads are amazing. Rage, Rampage, AV13, fleet, extra defense against psychic attacks, and they wound psykers just by being in their vicinity in close combat. Oh, and it can replace the integrated bolters in its fists with meltaguns or plasma.

Combine them with the Helcult Dataslates and overwhelm your opponent with walkers and swarms of fearless cultists.

where does one find the rules for khorn contempter dreads?

Perhaps a unit of crimson slaughter possessed with a sorceror with prophet of the voices and a spell familiar. He can then cast daemonology, what you are really after is cursed earth for more invulnerable saves.

The other one to remember is shrouded. Belakor can cast it, ok he doesn't benefit himself but any fmcs near him, can jink for a 2+ cover. When gliding. Pull this together and you can have a wave of beasts +(bloodthirsters included) gliding forward with a 2+ save 4++ invulnerable. Not including invisibility and grimoire.

Of course psychic powers rely on warp charge, and you dont have any. No tzeentch restriction suffers you here. If unbound, an option is to use captive psykers.

Use the grey knight dex, two henchmen (cultists) and a psyker, 18 points for a warp charge. And can be modelled to be fluffy. You cant deploy within 12" but captive psykers are dangerous.
To be battleforged you need 100 pts if coteaz, who's harder to fluff away, but hey there are such things as renegade inquisitors.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zachwho wrote:

the fresh prince of be'lair is a BEAST!!! but as a stand alone psycher, he won't be able to cast invisibility reliably enough to count on it. being ML 3, and only generating 3 wc dice, he may roll the 2 4+s needed, but the enemy only needs to roll one 6 to shut it down.

your opponent needs to roll as many 6's as you do 4's. Its much harder than it sounds.

i agree with you after thinking about it more, be'lakor is such a freak!

list idea:
2000 points Combined arms, blood for the blood god!

CSM CAD (primary)

be'lakor 350
kharn 160

20 cultists, 90
10 cultist 50

DOC CAD

herald of khorne, blood throne axe of khorne 140
herald of khorne, blood throne axe of khorne 140
herald of khorne, juggernaught, loci of fury, axe of khorne 130
herald of nurgle, grimmorie, lvl 2 110

10 plague bearers, 90
10 plague bearers, 90

20 fleshhounds 320

soulgrinder, dok, phlegm 165
soulgrinder, dok, phlegm 165


that's 2k even rush up, invis the blood star, and profit?

Something like this. 9 warp charge +d6 decent amount of objective secured scoring 3 smashers who glide forward. Hounds go invisible to cause immediate issues.
+++ Khorney. (1999pts) +++
+++ 2000pt Chaos Daemons: Codex (2013) v13, Chaos Space Marines: Supplement - Crimson Slaughter (2014) v4, Inquisition: Codex (2013) v18 Roster (Primary Detachment, Allied Detachment, Inquisitorial Detachment)) +++

Selections:

Chaos Daemons: Codex (2013) v13 (Primary Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ +

* Be'lakor, The Dark Master
(Daemon, Eternal Warrior, Fearless, Lord of Torment, Psyker (Mastery Level 3), Shadow Form)


* Bloodthirster
(Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, Lord of Blood)
D6 Daemonic Reward (Greater Magic Weapons, Greater Rewards)
* Daemon of Khorne
(Furious Charge, Hatred (Daemon of Slaanesh))
Daemon (5+ Invulnerable Save, Fear)


+ Troops +

* Bloodletters of Khorne
(Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike)
13x Bloodletters, Bloodreaper, Icon of Chaos (*)
* Daemon of Khorne
(Furious Charge, Hatred (Daemon of Slaanesh))
Daemon (5+ Invulnerable Save, Fear)


* Bloodletters of Khorne
(Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike)
12x Bloodletters, Bloodreaper, Icon of Chaos (*)
* Daemon of Khorne
(Furious Charge, Hatred (Daemon of Slaanesh))
Daemon (5+ Invulnerable Save, Fear)


+ Fast Attack +

* Flesh Hounds of Khorne
(Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike, Scout)
20x Flesh Hounds
* Daemon of Khorne
(Furious Charge, Hatred (Daemon of Slaanesh))
Daemon (5+ Invulnerable Save, Fear)


+ Heavy Support +

* Daemon Prince (Heavy)
(Daemonic Instability, Deep Strike)
Daemonic Flight
* Daemon of Khorne
(Furious Charge, Hatred (Daemon of Slaanesh))
Daemon (5+ Invulnerable Save, Fear)


Chaos Space Marines: Supplement - Crimson Slaughter (2014) v4 (Allied Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ +

* Sorcerer
(Champion of Chaos, Independent Character, Psyker)
2x Additional Mastery Level, Jump Pack, Melta bombs, Power Armour, Prophet of the Voices, Spell familiar


+ Troops +

* Possessed
(Daemon, Fearless, Fleet, Vessels of Chaos)
Icon of Wrath, Possessed Champion (Champion of Chaos)
* 10x Possessed
10x Mark of Khorne


Inquisition: Codex (2013) v18 (Inquisitorial Detachment) Selections:

+ HQ +

* Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor
(Independent Character, Stubborn)
Carapace Armour, Force Sword, Frag and Krak Grenades, Psyk-out Grenades (*)
* Psyker (Mastery Level 1)



+ Elites +

* Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
* Acolyte
Chainsword, Flak Armour, Laspistol
* Acolyte
Chainsword, Flak Armour, Laspistol
* Psyker


* Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband
* Acolyte
Carapace Armour, 2x Laspistol
* Acolyte
Carapace Armour, 2x Laspistol
* Psyker

i don't like the inquisitors.... neither does khorne!!

here's another idea that says F-your psychic phase!!

DOC primary

Be'lakor 350
herald of khorne, blood throne, axe, greater reward- 160
herald of khorne, blood throne, axe, greater reward- 160
herald of khorne, jugg, axe, ether blade- 120
karnak- 120

10 plague bearers 90
10 plague bearers 90

20 flesh hounds 320

soulgrinder, dok, phlegm- 165
soulgrinder, dok, phlegm- 165

CSM allies

kharn- 160
20 cultist, 2x flamers- 100

that's 2k, i think i really like this one!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
well just got chin checked in ymdc, the demon faq specifically calls the herolds out and says we lose IC when we take a chariot... :(

but we can still run the bloodstar, just take juggernauts instead of the chariots, possibly add skulltaker. but his ap3 sucks IMO.

Daemon FAQ herald loses his IC status when he becomes a charioteer, sadly. Blood thrones are still absolute, clunky ruled trash.

I'd strongly disagree with some of your low utility units.
First off, spawn with a blind-axe lord is probably the most khorney, choppy, bloody thing in the damn game. If your'e bringing khrone CSM, this unit is pretty much required.
Second, khorne terminators ARE the CC build for terminators. Don't give them stupid powerfists like the loyalist dogs. A mix of axes, swords and mauls, with a smattering of combiplasma in a big block of 10 is pretty damn far from 'low utility'. Hell, even suicide 3 khorne termies in will chew through most backfield units if even one or two survive to assault.
Simmilar sentiments with khorne bikers. They're not pound-for-pound worse than dogs. A block of 10 is a seriously mobile, shooty, and choppy unit, especially with a lord or unmarked sorcerer riding along.

^ Khorne contemptors are baller. I run mine with a butcher cannon and powerfist . Puts out as much firepower and melee puches as any two other dreads. For pure CC, I'd roll a decimator instead.

Blood slaughterers are also incredibly good assault walkers. Cheap as chips, hard as nails, and choppy as weed whackers. They're one of the few walkers that can be squadroned for extra durability, and theyre one of the few units that can 'assault' after deepstriking, by harpooning things. If you like soul grinders, theyre essentially more khorneate versions of those.

Most recent rules for pretty much every awesome chaos forgeworld thing is in Imperial Armour Apocalypse (2013)

I'm glad there's a discussion going on versus "Nope, Khorne Sucks."

I'll have to do research on the units being offered. I tried to limit myself to "Khorne only" items, so some things, like the Maulefiend, were not considered. Plus, I hate the model... personal bias.

What book are Chaos Contemptors in? Derp, read the entirety of the post...

Edit:

The reliability of FMCs in a Khorne list is quite low. I want to like Bloodthirsters and Daemon Princes, but they will be a massive target and don't have the resilience in the glide mode they need to leverage to get to combat turn 2. I could see them only working in the "saturation" mode where that's your focus of 2 Thirsters, 3 Prince, and Dogs to fill the rest. That may be a list I build to toy with.

Shame on the chariot thing, but expected. I do like Skulltaker, not because he's Ap3, but because he's an eternal warrior wound soak. I have always had on in most of my deathstars and they are a "Godsend" unit (Khornesend?). Basically, you ensure that anything big and gross isn't insta-gibbing your dogs or heralds. If you fight something gross like a Wraightknight, you can now have Skulltaker tank it and everyone else still gets to punch it if it's the only target thanks to 7E rules.

I'd like to have someway to make a Crimson Slaughter Lord, decked to the nines, to be super killy. The problem is that I hate power fists (going last in melee sucks unless you're the Space Marine Chapter Master) and I want to love the Blade of the Relentless so much...

Every Khorne list I see does the same thing. They basically ignore everything huge. Once Khorne's armies get into melee range, they're in their sweet spot. So players just flood the board with a creeping doom of speedy daemons. Unless you're setup to take it on, having a hundred daemons rushing you will end with them getting into melee range at which point the big guys can safely charge into the combat.

Think Daemon Factory only prebuilt.

I came to the conclusion pretty early with my khorne army that limiting yourself to khorne-only units makes list building 1: Really really boring, and 2: Really really limited in usefulness.
You're essentially handicapping yourself to 1/4 of a codex (less for CSM), and that doesn't make for a very balanced army.

[hippy voice] Khorne is more than what the name says in the book man... It's about the blood on the model, and how YOU choose to presentent them. If it looks like khorne, smells like khorne, and feels like khorne, then buddy, it's khorne. Even if it's actually slaannesh. [/hippy voice]

Daemonnettes are cool units. I run some as 'Scalpers of Khorne'. Plaguebearers are cool units. I run some as 'Blood Golems'. Horrors are cool units, I run some as 'Imps of Khorne' (think those little fireball guys from Doom). Maulerfiends are cool units, mine is a big cyborg bull, the 'Brazen Bull of Khorne'. Sorcerer's are cool units, I run mine as a 'Warcaller' and he scares people with a big bellowing horn. You get the idea.
If you're already using Bel'lakhorne and Nurgle Obliterators, because duh, those units are awesome, well... there's a lot of other units that aren't labled khorne, but are also pretty awesome.

Had a pretty good go with a khorne heavy list today. Mixed results.

Crimson slaughter lord, daemon heart, slaughters horns power fist and lightning claw and a sigil. S 94 on the charge with 7the attacks makes his a real threat to most things.
Running with 5 spawn. Still dies too quickly to wave serpents with belakor making them invisible. Turns out nova powers bypass invisibility and all!

The maulerfiend still died straight away. Marines in rhino worked well tho, the marines engage at range /when rush up close and the rhinos wander around taking objectives.

If we're talking about target saturation, why not consider the Predator? I've seen list where they have them armed with a single twin-linked lascannon, 100 points of mobile cover with the potential to take out armor or putting some wounds on MC, or a autocannon + heavy bolter for less points and with more potential to thin infantry. I'd rank it somwhere between low and mid in utility

Or better yet, 115 points for a relic plasma predator!

I only have the regular CSM rulebook, so I wouldn't know about that, but it sounds fun

McGibs, you're conversion is very awesome!!! love it.

you also seem to have access to alot of arcane weapons (the FW stuff)

are all of these items listed in the fw book you mentioned above?

Yeah, pretty much everything except flyers (which have pretty old rules now, like the dreadclaw) is in the Apocalypse (2013) book.
-Spartan
-Storm Eagle
-Relic Predators
-Contemptors
-Decimators
-Blood Slaughterers
-Plague Drones
-Plague Hulk
-Giant Chaos Spawn (super cheap monsterous creatures)
-Spined Chaos Beasts (Super expensive monsterous creatures)
-All the gigantic Chaos Daemons
-Some named daemon princes (Mamon, and a generic Khorne guy you'd never take)

Nurgle also got a HUGE nerf considering Poison Weapons no longer reroll when your Str is equal to the enemy in questions Toughness value, it has to be higher. Plague Marines rerolling to wound against their Space Marine counterparts, RIP.

IF you take Belakor, which in a Khorne themed list is questionably fluffy, then the Bloodthirster could get Invisibility cast on him, in which case you just start him on the table and jump 12" rather than Swoop. He stands a very good chance of making it into combat with something Turn 2.

Khorne Jugger-Heralds with Flesh Hounds are awesome, and the best Khorne unit out there, as they can also multi-charge well, or split up for separately tying up or tackling many enemies in one round.

Skull cannon isn't bad too have for the grenade effect or ignoring Jinks on skimmers. Soul Grinders are good, but I always take Phlegm (and they can Skyfire the Harverster). Of course Nurgle is the best on them (Slaanesh follows but certainly not appropriate with Khorne).

Kharn is amazing if he actually gets into combat. So what I like to do is take Huron as the Warlord (he's red, kinda Khorney) and a max unit of Bloodletters and a max Berzerker unit. You'll be Infiltrating at least one of those units. Then Kharn and Huron can either ride in a Land Raider or Infiltrate with the Berzerkers if you're lucky. Of course now with (at least temporarily) Daemons riding in land Raiders, 10 Bloodletters, or 10 Heralds of Khorne, might be the way to go with that!

Terminators are meh, but I agree, take swords and mauls and axes with combi plasmas and meltas. A bunch of Heralds though, you might get an Armorbane reward or 2 or 3, of course those are much better on Jugger Heralds.

You only get to Deny The Witch with bonuses if the enemy power is targeting the unit with the bonuses. So if the enemy is targeting the Bloodthirster, only DTWing on 6s unfortunately.

Khorne Heralds on Chariots can not join other units (which kinda sucks, seems like they should be able to form a squadron of chariots, but oh well).

Plaguebearers just plain suck...and I didn't even know about that new poison rule. Man, they really really suck now! Nurglings however are WAAAAY better, but of course, aren't Khorney.

So does everyone feel the only way to make known competitive is to bring csm as well?

plague bearer are possibly the best baby sitters we have. i don't want them in combat, i just want them to sit there and watch. bloodletters suck, even in a raider, they aren't worth it, in my opinion.

their poison nerf does indeed suck bloody balls


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thraxdown wrote:
So does everyone feel the only way to make known competitive is to bring csm as well?

its not necessary, with the nerf to fmc and the baledrake, its possible and maybe better to go all demons:

belakor - 350
hok on jugg, axe, etherblade x3 120 each
karnak, 120

10 plague 90
10 plague 90
10 plague 90

20 hounds 320

soulgrinder dok phlegm 165
soulgrinder dok phlegm 165

that's 1750 and pretty beefy to boot!

I ran Land Raiders with 10 man squads of Bloodletters in them today was was pleasantly surprised at how effective giving a simple Bloodreaper (Champion 5 point upgrade) an axe of Khorne. AP2 At initiative, the little bugger held his own against the Terminators I sent them after and actually made it into another combat before the squad got wiped.

It was one of the most pleasant surprises I've seen in a while! Next game I plan on taking 2 squads inside Land Raiders and see how they fair!

here is an idea i had about an allied in lord. idk if its worth the points?
crimson slaughter lord
mok
juggernaut
pwr fist
lightning claw
sigil
gift
horns
demon heart
voices

he's expensive, i believe coming in at 260, but if i attach him to a squad of spawn, or warp talons, and grimorie the squad, he'll have a 2+ 2++, with IWND, rage, furious charge, and whatever i can get out of gift.

challenge this!!!

I'd scratch Prophet of the Voices simply because you wouldn't be able to put him in any squads other than Possessed but that is a nice beat stick.