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Posted By Strangelooper on 11/15/2006 8:52 PM
 I do not own a car, nor will I ever own a car unless I end up living outside an urban metropolis some day (shudder...). But I cycle/walk/transit anywhere I need to go. I don't believe in needlessly spending money on what is ultimately a symbol of economic class and social status.

Yeah, you definitely don't live in LA.  

Posted By moosifer on 11/15/2006 6:39 PM

As to special characters, if you using lysander in your DiY chapter that is suppose to be successor but in actually has the traits of a totally different chapter, then yes I would not care to play it. Special Characters are meant to be played for the armies that they are created for, not a mix and match.

Like voodooboyz said this aint what we are talking about but non the less let me address this point.  If somebody did that then I would be abit anoyed unless it was by prior arrangment.

If somebody used lysander, ragnar or dante but used there own chapter with IF, SW or BA rules then fine.  AS for unpainted shabby models or just lego blocks not everybody takes pride in there mini OR not everybody thinks the painting/modelling is the important factor For some its the actual playing of the game for others its the modelling aspect.

 

IF they choose to continiously use proxy y models it would still not bother me as long as they had a proper army list which tells me what everything is and they dont change/alter it midway through the game. 

 

Like I said how would that detract from the fun you are supposed to have?  just cos there army looks like crap who cares?  I dont need to see a nice army to have fun.  On a side note if I got beeten by lego blocks and empty bases I would be annoyed lol

This talk of capitalism makes me giddy:

You know, for people who really wanted to start a new army with proper models but haven't had the money to do so, capitalism saves the day (hehe). The PS3 will be released tomorrow so get your ebay auctions started and maybe you'll have enough for those new models. Of course, if you're smart you'll buy used models from ebay/bartertown anyway so you'll have more. Wii's out on sunday too.

(DISCLAIMER: I have not played 40K in about four years, and I'm only now thinking of getting back.. so my views might be outdated!)

I do not see the problem so long as the person sticks to one list.. e.g. if you have a DIY chapter and use them as Blood Angels today and Space Wolves tomorrow, be my guest, just don't change mid-game and at least be courteous enough to point out to be beforehand any oddities in your list ( e.g. "The Marine with the halberd counts as having a Power Fist" ) so I'm aware of it.

On the subject of special characters.. I agree that you should only use, for example, Marneus Calgar if you're playing a true Ultramarine army (i.e. painted in Ultramarine colors and markings).  HOWEVER, I don't see a problem with using the RULES for a special character but changing the name, background and converting a model to represent your own chapter's character, just again make sure that you point out what counts as what beforehand.  If you want to use the rules for Lysander but aren't playing Imperial Fists or whomever, just change the name and story (and hopefully the model).  Again, so long as the rules are consistent I would not really care what it looks like. 

I distinctly recall back when I played that almost all of the armies that were showcased in WD from Tournaments and that won awards were usually 100% conversions that used existing rules.. things like Undead Imperial Guard, or the "Mars Attacks" Chaos army or (for Fantasy) a Blood Dragon VC army made up of High Elves. 

Posted By nyarlathotep667 on 11/15/2006 2:40 PM

Posted By moosifer on 11/15/2006 1:09 PM

  Isnt that why models are painted/modeled a certain way?  To AVOID any issues that might come up?

Do you play any games with actual, mature people?

 

A little hostile there nyarly to a relatively new poster, expressing a valid opinion, even if completely wrong

Stangelooper: Not a problem if I'm called a snob; don't mind it. Luckily, I won't have to play against someone with an Ork army, but it is really a Marine army and make me try to remember what is what in an army. Again, not a lot of fun for me. Different strokes for different folks. But, if you want to sling mud, so be it, I'm confortable with what you've got to sling. But, that's cool that my minivan is a symbol of economic status, as opposed to utilitarian usage, or the pickup truck I use so I can load my ruck and other gear in order for me to perform various aspects of my job. I have no problem with the whiners who say life isn't fair; makes for one less person I have to worry about when I'm trying to acheive al lthat I can.

But, with the armies that are Orks, but are really Marines, makes it easier for me to find a different opponent so I can get a fun game in on my limited time. I don't like having to constantly try and figure out what model is really what.

Respectfully.

I do have more than enough money even with kids (we can compare salaries on another board). Further, with fixins for 5 armies, there's a fair investment in this game.  However, I still paint my tanks the same color, my weapons the same color.  I have absolutely no desire to repaint the same rhino ten times because I have 3 different marine armies.  If you like that more power to you, but to me thats a moronic waste of my time, when I could be spending that time converting a Leman from a Tiger,  making a war altar replete with Ogryn carriers for a defiler etc.

If I choose to, my DIY painted white marines can stand in for IW's/chaos/generic traits marines as I see fit. I've never had a problem in a tournament with that. To focus on whether a marine is Red or Grey is frankly stupid.  Compliment them on their painting and conversions, but really, if Bob's Imperrial Mailmen are green but Bob is playing SW rules, you can't tell they are SW's? WYSIWYG rules, 'but paintin' taint wysiwyg.'

 

 

 

 

I think Sari put it better than I had, bravo sir

Everyone seems to be taking ridiculously extreme examples and poo-pooing them because they're just stupid examples. But the debate should really be about the real examples that have actually been talked about, instead of wild theories of what people might play with.

For example, I play an Eldar army, but my models are converted to all hell, because by my fluff they are from the Crone Worlds, corrupted by Chaos.

I use "Possessed" (Converted in a similar manner to Chaos Marine Possessed) as my Striking Scorpions, they are fully WYSIWYG, with Daemonic Mutations as thier Mandiblasters (It gives the same effect), chainswords and shuriken pistols. Yet they aren't Striking Scorpions... am I supposed to not play with them because of that, all you "counts as" nay-sayers?

Posted By Strangelooper on 11/15/2006 8:52 PM
 And no, I don't need anyone to drive me to the store. I do not own a car, nor will I ever own a car unless I end up living outside an urban metropolis some day (shudder...). But I cycle/walk/transit anywhere I need to go. I don't believe in needlessly spending money on what is ultimately a symbol of economic class and social status.

 

OTT but shameless hijack of thread
1.  Clearly you're not from Texas. I'm sorry

I bet my wife's truck is bigger than your apartment (carting our kids plus 5-19 neighbor kids it really should qualify as a bus).  Hah, I bet my wife's truck is bigger than England...

2. Urban metropolis=homeless peeing on the street.  Rural equals trees, grass, and deer.  I can walk behind my  house right up to deer in the morning.  Occasionally there will be a chicken hawk perched on the light pole in front.

No offense, but your an elitest tirad is old. Cars are NOT all symobols of status, socila or otherwise. They are a necessity to go to work for those of use not living like sardines in a metro area....

But thanks for playing.

I agree with Billy. The example at hand is hellfury's non-yellow Lysander list. I seriously doubt anyone would actually have the balls to stop the game halfway through and call a judge over to demand a forfeit. I have to admit that I wouldn't even know that his guys were even supposed to be yellow if I was playing him. I myself have used the col. Shaefer rules with my own version of the shaefer/Kage models. I like the rules, but use my own fluff. I also swing completely the opposite way with my Blood angels. I demand that the Death Company be painted distinctively from the rest of the force. This applies to my own army as well as my opponents force. The difference though (as far as I can tell) is that the BA codex actually lays it out there as a rule.

This has been said before, but the main thing to consider is communication. Make sure the opponent has all of the information available to him.

To be on point with the matter:

A person is playing a Lysanderwing type army, but his Marines aren't painted yellow, they are painted pink (or whatever color)-not an issue. I personally don't care what color they are.

A person who throws down an Ork army, but is playing a Lysanderwing and has to explain in detail what each model really is; problem. It can get confusing and saps the fun out of the game for me.

Posted By Sarigar on 11/16/2006 8:14 AM
To be on point with the matter:

A person is playing a Lysanderwing type army, but his Marines aren't painted yellow, they are painted pink (or whatever color)-not an issue. I personally don't care what color they are.

A person who throws down an Ork army, but is playing a Lysanderwing and has to explain in detail what each model really is; problem. It can get confusing and saps the fun out of the game for me.

I can generally agree with that. If he's proxying for a fun game thats ok. If he's using counts as rules for his own spercial force-thats ok too, but he has to model his army properly or someway let your opponent easily know whats what.

 

Ok sairgar has a point that it can be confusing for some of the less nimble of mind players to have to try to remeber what is what.

As for the car issue I am sure the poster was saying that he is not a child who is driven to GW stores and that he does not even own a car. Where the hell did the stupid comments about capitalism come up from? See if you guys just embraced Communism in all its glory you would not have this problem as we would all share the nice painted models and people would not have to proxy stuff cos somebody would already have it and it would be all of ours. lol

Posted By beef on 11/16/2006 8:44 AM
See if you guys just embraced Communism in all its glory you would not have this problem as we would all share the nice painted models and people would not have to proxy stuff cos somebody would already have it and it would be all of ours. lol

Er, no the Party members would share in nice painted models and play int ehir private dachas. The other 98% would live in uniform apartments (if we were lucky and lived in a 'rich' communist nation), and would be really happy if we had enough to eat.

jfrazell: AHAHAHA, I glad someone else payed attention to what communism turned out to be.

On a tangent: For the Emperor sounds strangely familiar, kinda like For the Motherland...

What if the conversion alters the size of the model, say for a vehicle

I have this plan (likely never to be done) to turn the Fire Prism into a sort of walker-lookin' robot thing. It would wind up not as wide or long as a fire prism. Does that give it an unfair advantage? Such as being able to hide behind smaller terrain.

It would definitely have an advantage.

Playing against someone who definitely used modeling to their advantage when playing would be a very valid reason to dock their sportsmanship scores.

A good example would be Ork Kult of Speed players using the undersized GW Trukk model but then using oversized scratch built buggies so that they could block LOS to the Trukks a lot easier.

Posted By Kikkoman on 11/16/2006 11:19 AM
What if the conversion alters the size of the model, say for a vehicle

I have this plan (likely never to be done) to turn the Fire Prism into a sort of walker-lookin' robot thing. It would wind up not as wide or long as a fire prism. Does that give it an unfair advantage? Such as being able to hide behind smaller terrain.

Easily remedied.  Bake a base with the exact dimensions of the normal fire prism and stick your conversion on the base.  It would even have a little room for a plack or sign with the name "falconus" or something in fake Latin.  If your base is in LOS then they can shoot.

For my war altar, I used the exact 2d dimensions of a defiler and made a base of that size.  I also finished the height at the same approx. height as a defiler.

@jfrazel then I guess we would have to make sure we are party members.

I made a defiler into a robot that was twice the height but made sure my opponents relised it was blocked by size 3 terrain even if it was taller as a defiler would normally not be that tall.

This is starting to skew, but I have to chime in again. Right or wrong, I definately have a tendency to go along with someone's conversion/scratch build more if it is well done then if it is just thrown together. This came up quite a while ago on these forums but someone or some people made scratch built drop pods out of the star wars escape pod (I think) featured in Ep 4. They were much bigger than the forgeworld droppods either because of their bases or just because they are. There was an uproar about how these guys had cheated their way through a GT with these models and that it was horrible. I gotta say I was on the player's side. Now if they had used toilet paper tubes and duct tape spraypainted blue for their oversized drop pods I probably would have joined the mob.

So the moral is: A good conversion will be easier to take then a crappy one. The differently colored Lysander force will be fine as long as they are done well. The half-unpainted, some minis missing pieces Lysander force will go over like a broken toilet.

Yeah nut some people suck at painting and converting. How do you judge a crappy conversion or paint job? Ok you can tell when somebody is not bothered enuff to take time to do something but there has been countless times I have met players who have a converted figure or newly painted model thats looks like crap but they actually spent time on it and its there pride and joy. (even though it looks like a 5yr old did it and the player is actuall late 30's)

Posted By beef on 11/16/2006 1:38 PM
countless times I have met players who have a converted figure or newly painted model thats looks like crap but they actually spent time on it and its there pride and joy. (even though it looks like a 5yr old did it and the player is actuall late 30's)

Ah you've seen some of my work then

The reason there was an uproar was because some of those guys claimed the base they added to their drop pod blocked LOS like size 3 area terrain, not because they had scratch built drop pods. There was some discussion about the size of the wings being large to favor the player (the wings made up the bulk of the model, making it more 'lawn dart' then 'drop pod') but that was minor compared to the erroneous use of the LOS rules.

the above example shows how people will take the piss.

But have sympathy for players like jfrazel who cant paint or convert to save there life. He has probably been trying since before most of us were born but thats not a reason to be annoyed.

Gw themselves put emphasis on this being "our" hobby and converting and modelling is an aspect of this hobby. Just cos they aint Eavey metal standard or golden demon standard should not make us into snobs who wont play a poorly pianted or converted army.

Offence should be taken at the rules lawyers who quiblle everything. they are the ones who take thje fun out of playing.

I conceed my lysander wing point. I still dont understand why you get pick the Master of One chapter as the HQ choice of another but that is me.

I built some drop pods myself, have yet to use them but I would love to try them out. They are big, and about the size of two LRCs stacked on one another. Would I get crap from that at a GT like the above situation?

Yes, yes you would.

A lot.

That would really fall under the "He's using modeling to his advantage" category that would be a real reason to dock sports scores.

http://www.minivault.com/ModelingDropPods.htm

Is a great link that you can use to build some cheap and very reasonable sized pods.

Actually thost mini vault ones are the ones I am using, just they didnt sell 3" , so mine are wider than the ones from mini vault but squatter than the ones from mini vault. If I can get my camera working I will see if i can get pics up

Dood! I can't believe you won't buy the Forgeworld ones!

What are you poor and a failure and drive a Pinto or something?

I would never play you unless you used proper forgeworld Drop Pods. My brain doesn't work well enough to recognize anything other than Forgeworld Drop Pods as Drop Pods. I might forget and think your pods were Rhinos or something. Are you deliberately trying to confuse your opponents to gain a game advantage?