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I dont mind conversions, homemade stuff. Im am in the progress of using green stuff, black leftovers from a 4 pack of small bases, a bamboo sticker and staple wire to make a force staff for a Deathwatch Librarian. There is no current librarian modeled the way I wanted, esp with the deathwatch shoulderpads, so I made my own.

Nuts to forgeworld, im not paying 45 euros or whatever plus overseas shipping.

The funny thing is someone on these forums said he'd dock people in both comp and sports for using custom/scratchbuilt/kitbashed drop pods since an "official" model is available. Yeah. That got laughed out pretty quickly.

Moosifer: The thing is, he is not using "the Master of One chapter as the HQ choice of another [chapter]", he's using the chapter and that chapter's master, but instead of calling the chapter Imperial Fists, it's [insert chapter name here] and instead of Lysander, it's [insert chapter master's name here]. The rules, however, remain the same and consistent.

Really, so teleport assault is a choice for every Termmie HQ Choice?

Am I being nit picky/rules lawyery? Sure
Does it really matter in the scheme of things? In life not really.
Is it something that I would argue at a tourney? Maybe, depending on how the day went. I mean I would not pack up and quit, but I would state my objection and just go with the ruling

objections to what? His IF that were painted purple? and called purple fist or whatever? The point is he is not using lysander in a space wolf army thus gaing 2 different sets of rules and advantages. He just does not like IF name and colours so all he is doing is calling it something else.

EXAMPLE you have a porche but dont like it in yellow so you change the colour to green. Its still a porche. You then decide you dont like the name Porche so you change that to Jimbo. Its still a porche underneath. It drives like a porche, it handles like a porche and it sounds like a porche therfore it is a porche, changing the name and colour should not make any difference.

I cant explain it any simplar. Sorry

Ok, I get it. So I think tomorrow Im gonna go out and get Tigerius and call him Spongey the Librarian, paint him my colors, and then do a drop pod list of doom. Thanks for the clarification

yes as long as the army list you use is Ultramarines Rules. You cant use Tigarus and use him with other rules apart from uktramarine, so no putting him in an army with BA or BT rules etc.

9 pages later and I think Moosifar might finally be understanding what the discusion was about

That's great! Because I don't anymore...I think it had something to do with models? Kate Moss? Wow, the bloom came off her pretty quickly, didn't it?

No? Okay. Never mind.

Can I proxy a Gumby doll for Spongey? What if I paint him blue?

whats a gumby doll?

No Gumby in the UK!?>!?!?!?!?!??!

PREPARE FOR WAR!

Posted By Strangelooper on 11/16/2006 9:55 PM
Can I proxy a Gumby doll for Spongey? What if I paint him blue?

Gumby don't play dat!   Would his dog count as a familiar?

He was once just a little green slab of clay....

GUMBY!

He can walk into any book with his pony pal pokey too....

If you have a heart then Gumbys' a part you...

GUMBY

Hrmm this has got me thinking of the most evil idea ever.

Assuming I explained what the army was, and the conversions all made sense and were pretty much WYSIWYG, how pissy do you think people would get if I used Orks in a "Counts As" Khorne Chaos army?

Might work. I have seen similar. Itll take some planning though.

Posted By Hellfury on 11/17/2006 4:50 AM
Might work. I have seen similar. Itll take some planning though.

The idea is born out of all the times I've had to put up with the Ork players who insist that the army isn't underpowered and GW should never change them, and that any troubles Orks have are because other armies are overpowered. 

Then I started thinking about it and you really could go nuts with it.  Take some preds and do the normal Ork Looting Process to em, same on a defiler, except "grotify" it more than Orkify it since Grots + Spiders just makes sense as a theme. 

Boyz could do with the normal 'Eavy Armor type conversions with all the Ork spikey bits, or just be normal Orks with Nobs + Power Klaws for aspiring Champions. 

The Warboss conversion would be awesome.  Demonic flight could be modeled as a really big Storm Boy Rokkit on a Boss model.  You could convert the Fantasy Boss on Boar and 40k-ify it and have it count as a Steed of Khorne.  Khorne and Chaos icons and glyphs could be represented by Ork Glphs.  Demon Summoning would be Orks mastering "tellyportas" and having Bloodletters be some fantasy Black Orks in armor with great weapons....

You could do both conversions, one with the Jet Pack to represent the Bloodletter and one for a Lord with speed...

Khorne Terminators would be Nobz in Mega Armor, you could really do this....

Go for it.

 

 

Voodoo, please dont take this the wrong way.

I love the idea for the army, it seems solid and you have everything planned out. I would have no issues playing in friendly games with that army, and if your skills as a modeler painter are really good I would awe at the army.

Come Tourney time, unless I had played you so well that I know from sight what is what, I would be hesitant to play that army. Why? To much room to "fudge" things. This is NOT a rip on your ethics or playstyle, Im just saying that in my experiences heavy converted "count as" armies lead to much *female dog*ing and moaning

Yeah I did a similar khorne army once but not with orks but with high elves. anyway the army list I doubt would be very difficult to understand so even if I played you at a tournie I would not mind.

@Moosifar do people actually play with you? And if you made a fuss at a tournie and the ref said tough luck mate you either play the guy or forfiet, would you forfiet the game? Out of curiousity how old are you and do you hand out under bridges?

Yes I get plenty of games, and lose most of them because I play to enjoy the game. Like other gamers I get frustrated at times, but I still dont quit if Im getting stomped, shake hands and say good game at the end. Im 25 and no I do not hang out under bridges, in fact play with some lurkers on this forums (Hi Mike and Rich!)

As to your tourney question, I would play the army, but I would politely ask to have it explained to me as well as to see what unit is what on your roster sheet if there is a problem. Reason for this being with conversions on the scale of an entire army, it is very simple to fudge things. Im not saying you, or anyone here would do this, but with converted armies it is very easy to see the confused look on your opponents face and then say "Ok now I have X attacks at X weapon skill, reroll fails" even though that is in a unit on the other side of the board.

What it comes down to is communication, and if your heavily converted opponent is willing and able to do it, then more power to him. However in my experience this is the exception to the rule, and it has warped my viewpoint on players of the game

I'm more on side with Moosifer on that. Non-tourney games I see absolutley no problem. Tourney games the conversions need to be very clear (as noted I've gone so far as to paint "obliterus" in gold on my obliterator conversions so there's no issue). But tourney games are the minority so I again say go for it.

Moosifer: I agree with your point in principle, but I think you're letting a few bad experiences overtake what is by far more common. People who convert armies to the extent of the Ork/khorne army above, in my experience, are more then willing to explain everything clearly and competently, including handing over an army list.

It's vital that all conversions are clearly pointed out. that's just a given, it doesn't matter if you're entire world eaters army is converted from orks or if you count a Hand Flamer on your apothecary as a bolt pistol. I've never had problems with conversions in a tournament, unlike Proxies, which of course are another story all together.

Given the above example, the line becomes blurred depending on the nature of the conversion. If the orks were kit bashed with berserker bitz, would you not allow it?

Clearly, an army made up of unconverted, green and brown orks that claims to be world eaters might be a little suspisious. But if the orks were converted to look chaotic, it's not hard to tell the units in a world eaters army apart. They have berzerkers, bloodletters, terminators, a daemon prince, bikers, and tanks. that's about it. I think that the ordinary, reasonable person can keep track of "slugga boys are berzerkers" "mega armor is terminators" "Black Orcs with great weapons are bloodletters" "boar boys are bikers."

I certainly don't know how long you've been gaming or how familiar you are with the various armies, but I've found that by reading each codex throuroughly, I'm less suprised in RTTs by what my opponent brings.

Posted By beef on 11/16/2006 7:11 PM
yes as long as the army list you use is Ultramarines Rules. You cant use Tigarus and use him with other rules apart from uktramarine, so no putting him in an army with BA or BT rules etc.

You illustrate my point. There are armies out there with awesome special characters and abilities far better then what you can come up with using the traits system. So why use them at all? If you wanted to powergame, you just take your marines painted any color and say....these guys count as Space Wolves, and thats Ragnar today. And so on and so forth.

I'm surprised GW would allow a counts as rule, because it could slow sales. I could buy 1 Space Marine force and configure it however I wanted, and never buy another one because one day they could be Blood Angels, another day they could be Black Templars etc.

My opinion is this : If you want to do your own paint scheme and fluff, then GW provides you with DIY rules, called the trait system. If you like an established chapter, or want to do an offshoot of them, then do so as long as it is "codex" or close to codex. Making up your own stuff and then saying it counts as to me is a lame way to powergame and score points for "originality".

Its not powergaming its called saving money. why should you not be able to experience all the races of 40K without shelling out tons of money. Most people cant afford it. I would rather have one army or plain marines that I could count as another chapter once in a while when I am bored. Once again I dont see how this is powergaming? Its simple economics.

@ Moosifar I agree with you to the extent that heavely converted armies should always be explained clearly and have a clear roster. In my experiance all the players I have played with the exception of a very small minortiy do just that. They take pride in there army ang go to great lenghts to explain what everyhthing is. ~ Me being the impatient/impulsive player that I am just tell them to play. Obviously you will get the odd occasion where somebody will make a mistake and get confused but if its genuine let it slide. ITS ONLY A GAME AFTER ALL> Dont let a few bad experiences ruin what should be a fun game.

Where in the rules does it say that an Imperial Fists army must be yellow? Where does it say that an Ultramarines army must be blue? And to what standard are you holding your opponent?

If someone tried to tell me that they had a problem with my army because it was painted the wrong color then their army sure as hell better have each and every tactical marking and shoulder rim exactly as it appears in the codex. "Oh, I'm sorry - Imperial Fist veteran srgs have a red stripe on their helmets. And that's not really the correct shade of yellow. I guess you can't use Lysander."

how true. But it does say that IM are yellow and Ultramarines are blue but I agree with your point

Posted By Abadabadoobaddon on 11/17/2006 3:57 PM
Where in the rules does it say that an Imperial Fists army must be yellow? Where does it say that an Ultramarines army must be blue? And to what standard are you holding your opponent?

If someone tried to tell me that they had a problem with my army because it was painted the wrong color then their army sure as hell better have each and every tactical marking and shoulder rim exactly as it appears in the codex. "Oh, I'm sorry - Imperial Fist veteran srgs have a red stripe on their helmets. And that's not really the correct shade of yellow. I guess you can't use Lysander."

Dude, that would be awesome.

"oh, you painted your tactical markings on? And used waterslide transfers? How...quaint. Why didn't you buy the Forgeworld shoulder pads, or at least the GW metal ones? Are you too lazy to really do this hobby? I guess so. Smite."  

I loves me the conversions and cool armies. I do think that there should be some limits though. I say this as I drill holes in my IG and bore the exit wounds to make my other zombies.

Also, since I pour more than enough money into my former colonial master's pockets, I made my own chaos spawn. Heck, people loved em. Think clay + boredom + a girlfriend that likes tim burton claymation. In Moosifer's defence, he didn't mind me using them or my partially converted IG at all. I also took the time to explain them both though. Also, I have taken to subbing in bolters for heavy stubbers. Why you ask? Because I will NOT buy a leman russ for ONE IG model's gun.

I have played against some of the people Moosifer is talking about. This is why when I go to the next tournie there I will not feel so bad about using my Angron Inspired LatD list. I beat cheaters with cheese. I figure they might learn how to win without cheating.

we shall destroy all comers

not my 1500pt list you wont, it just has 2 titans and a Wolf lord who pops out when one of the titans is destroyed.